Lord Krishna used his chakra for something. I have not read all of the Mahabharata.
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"Suryaputra" and "Daanveer"; Karna
- Thread starter Subhankar Zac
- Start date
Subhankar Zac
Hare Krishna,Hare Krishna,
Paundraka Vasudeva, the ally of Jarasena who would dress up like Krishna n claim he's the supreme God.
When meeting in a battle Krishna killed the charioteer n the horses with his mace before beheading Paundraka.
Subhankar Zac
Hare Krishna,Hare Krishna,
Charioteers were given the most meager respect in the caste system.
So they are weaponless n barred from learning weaponry. Which is why many a times Karna was barred.
Yet the same charioteers are expected to die in a war when they have no weapons?
Out of curiosity, do you have a verse for this?
निताइ dasa
Nitai's servant's servant
Yes, Paundraka claimed to be "Vasudeva" (God Himself), and when Krsna read his proclamation he laughed quite alot. Then Paundraka challenged Krsna to battle, (because he was like "I'm am God, not you, so I deserve your chakra"). So in battle, Krsna easily beheaded him. Story is in Bhagavatam too. Basically, the moral is, don't try to claim that you are God, especially in front of God. Quoting directly from SB Canto 10, Chapter 66:
"S'rî S'uka said: 'After Balarâma had left for Nanda's cowherd village oh King, the ruler of Karûsha [called Paundraka] who foolishly thought 'I am Vâsudeva', sent a messenger to Krishna. Peoplechildishly had suggested: 'You are Vâsudeva, the Supreme Lord who has descended as the Master of the Universe!' and so he thought of himself as the Infallible One.Like a boy of little intelligence who by kids was appointed king, he being silly, sent a messenger to Krishna who resided in Dvârakâ, to Him whose ways are inscrutable. The envoy arriving in Dvârakâ, relayed in the royal assembly to Krishna Almighty with the Lotus petal Eyes, the message of his king: 'I am the one and only Vâsudeva and no one else. I have descended to this world with the purpose of showing mercy to the living beings, You however, have to give up Your false claim on that title! Oh Sâtvata, give up my symbols that You carry out of ignorance. You better come to me for shelter! If You do not, then give me battle instead.'
S'rî S'uka said: 'Hearing that boasting of the stupid Paundraka, the members of the assembly headed by Ugrasena laughed out loud. The Supreme Lord, after the joking was done, said to the messenger: 'I will hurl at you oh fool, the symbols you so boast about. (You will be the shelter of dogs, you ignoramus, when you lay dead with that face of yours covered by flocking herons, vultures andvathas.'
(Thus being addressed the messenger conveyed that insulting reply in full detail to his master. Krishna with His chariot rode to the vicinity of Kâs'î [Vârânasî]. As soon as the mighty warrior Paundraka noticed His preparations for battle, he appeared from the city joined by two akshauhinîs. He was followed by his friend the king of Kâs'î who covered his back with three akshauhinis. Oh King, Krishna saw Paundraka complete with a conch, a disc, a sword and a club, a S'ârnga bow, a S'rîvatsa mark and other symbols, including a Kaustubha gem and the decoration of a garland of forest flowers.Wearing a pair of fine silken yellow garments and carrying Garuda in his banner, he wore a valuable crown and had ornamented himself with gleaming, shark-shaped earrings. The sight of him dressed up as His spitting image, like he was an actor on a stage, made the Lord laugh heartily. The enemies attacked the Lord with tridents, clubs and bludgeons, pikes, blades, barbed missiles, lances, swords, axes and arrows.Krishna however, with His club, sword, disc and arrows, fiercely tormented the military force of elephants, chariots, horses and infantry of Paundrakaand the king of Kâs'î, like He was the fire at the end of the age tormenting the different kinds of living beings. The battlefield, strewn with the chariots, horses, elephants, bipeds, mules and camels cut to pieces by His disc, shone like the horrible playground of the Lord of the Ghosts [Bhûtapati, or S'iva], who pleases the wise therewith. S'auri then said to Paundraka: 'Those weapons you mentioned by mouth of your messenger, I will now release at you.(I will force you to renounce My name and everything that you falsely assumed, oh fool! And today I will turn to you for shelter [as you wanted], when I do not wish to fight you.'
Thus deriding him, He drove Paundraka out of his chariot with His sharp arrows and with His disc lopped off his head, just like Indra with his thunderbolt splits a mountain top.So too He with His arrows severed the head of the king of Kâs'î from his body, sending it flying into Kâs'î-puri like the wind transporting the flower-cup of a lotus"
Subhankar Zac
Hare Krishna,Hare Krishna,
SB 10.66.8 — The Personality of Godhead, after enjoying the jokes of the assembly, told the messenger [to relay a message to his master:] “You fool, I will indeed let loose the weapons you boast of in this way.
SB 10.66.9 — “When you lie dead, O fool, your face covered by vultures, herons and vaṭa birds, you will become the shelter of dogs.”
Doesn't seem like the words a God would use.
SB 10.66.18 — The battlefield, strewn with the dismembered chariots, horses, elephants, humans, mules and camels that had been cut to pieces by the Lord’s disc weapon, shone like the gruesome playground of Lord Bhūtapati, giving pleasure to the wise.
Not just humans were killed.
SB 10.66.21 — Having thus derided Pauṇḍraka, Lord Kṛṣṇa destroyed his chariot with His sharp arrows. The Lord then cut off his head with the Sudarśana disc, just as Lord Indra lops off a mountain peak with his thunderbolt weapon.
A chariot wouldn't normally move without horses and a charioteer
Subhankar Zac
Hare Krishna,Hare Krishna,
Moral would make more sense if only the guilty were slaughtered.
I wouldn't punish the animals or mentally weak who were coerced in a criminal activity, mainly if I m the Lord of the three worlds.
Yes. If you wanted to stop a warrior's chariot, you would immediately think of killing the charioteer. War is not safe for anybody.
The man was enticing others to worship him, a jiva. His devotees were deeply under the influence of maya. Lord Krishna saved them.
Subhankar Zac
Hare Krishna,Hare Krishna,
That's like trying to justify Deuteronomy 20:10-18
Doesn't make sense with the Dharma of Hinduism.
And that how one justifies the final plague of Egypt and killing of the nephew of Moses.
Why doesn't it make sense? As for the final plague,I see no wrong, he repeatedly disobeys Moses. Lord Krishna was fully visible to Paundraka and still he was full of ego and attacked Lord Krishna.
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Subhankar Zac
Hare Krishna,Hare Krishna,
So the pharoah disobeyed Moses n then God kills the children instead of the pharoah.
And you don't find anything wrong?
Maybe because I m part buddhist, I see senseless killing as evil, irrespective of who does it.
Paundraka n his men attacked, the animals and the charioteers didn't.
Unfortunately killing a charioteer was quite a standard tactic used by all warriors. There was not any rule anywhere in Mahabharata about not killing charioteers. I do not see anywhere in Mahabharata about any injunction against charioteers not having weapons or training in them. In fact Sanjaya, the narrator of the War, and Dhritarashtra's charioteer, was leading his own small division in War and was returning to the King to tell what has happened only when a great calamity occurred. But their training was more basic and they did not get elite level training that the kshatriyas got (and which Karna was after). In a chariot brigade (the main offensive weapon of the Bronze and early iron age) somebody has to drive the chariot and its ridiculous to say that the opponent can't shoot the driver to gain victory. And yes, the charioteers were unjustly considered an inferior caste and everything, which was a real social problem.
Of course killing innocents is bad. Especially children. You think Lord Krishna would do such a thing? Absolutely not. I understand where your getting from. I have not been here and rejecting you without any thought. You're opinion is very valid. But there are material and spiritual reasons when Lord Krishna performs an action.
You do understand that Mahabharata is talking about a full on warrior culture with all Kshatriayas being meat eaters, hunters for sport, performing elaborate animal sacrifices and fighting wars with extreme full frontal ferocity? Only cows belonging to the Brahmanas were protected, otherwise animals were hunted and was considered part of the enemy's force that needs to be killed if the enemy is to be vanquished.
Its a far more viscerally violent culture than one we live in now.
निताइ dasa
Nitai's servant's servant
All those who are killed by The Lord are granted Moksha. It is the greatest boon and blessing to the demons. In war the innocents are killed, but such is the nature of war. Those who fight for Dharma even on the wrong side will get access to the heavenly planets.
निताइ dasa
Nitai's servant's servant
A few thoughts on this thread
Lord Krsna was never marayada purushottama, He never made an attempt to follow the rules of Dharma. He Himself never set the ideals, but he spoke them through the Gita. What did we learn about imitating the Lord? (hint hint Paundraka). Even death in Hinduism is not such a big deal, compared to the Abrahamic religions, because it is only the body that is harmed not the soul.
Furthermore, no one is innocent (in a sense). All things we get are fruits of our Karma. Even the elephants and animals who were killed in war were killed according to their Karma.
The laws of war, as described in the Mahabharata were extremely complex, and to us would appear quite violent. If have to very careful in applying our societies morality to a society which is very different from ours.
Lord Krsna was never marayada purushottama, He never made an attempt to follow the rules of Dharma. He Himself never set the ideals, but he spoke them through the Gita. What did we learn about imitating the Lord? (hint hint Paundraka). Even death in Hinduism is not such a big deal, compared to the Abrahamic religions, because it is only the body that is harmed not the soul.
Furthermore, no one is innocent (in a sense). All things we get are fruits of our Karma. Even the elephants and animals who were killed in war were killed according to their Karma.
The laws of war, as described in the Mahabharata were extremely complex, and to us would appear quite violent. If have to very careful in applying our societies morality to a society which is very different from ours.
Subhankar Zac
Hare Krishna,Hare Krishna,
If charioteers were allowed to defend themselves in war with weapons, why was karna not allowed to be a disciple of Drona or was insulted as a "Sutaputra" when we went the arena to show off his skills for the first time?
Subhankar Zac
Hare Krishna,Hare Krishna,
Most people are scared of death solely for the pain they receive. Now imagine yourself being embedded with swords and arrows.
If death was supposed to this easy, why give us the senses that makes one sensible to pain?
निताइ dasa
Nitai's servant's servant
The pain arises when there is attachment between the soul and the body. There are some people who die peacefully, because they understand that the soul is leaving the body. It is only when there is attachment to these material objects (like one's family, wealth beauty) that death is truly painful. As for physical pain, I would say that being embedded with swords and arrows, while painful initially is not that painful. Actually in such cases (extreme blood loss) the body seems to go into shock anyway. Bhishma pitama was so powerful that he was able to stop death itself, because we wanted to speak Visnu Sahasranama to Yudhishtira first before dying (and thus is spoke on a bed of arrows).