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Sutras on Mystical Experience

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
From Mysticism and Spirituality, Vol 1: Mysticism, Fullness of Life.

I had wanted to make a thread on these before because I thought they might provoke discussion and I love them, but I ended up trying to explain all of them and it was getting really long and I ditched the effort. Instead, this time I'm just going to post them as aphorisms without elaboration, although they surely need at least some, and we'll see where it goes :p

There are really two more but they are more technical and don't really stand without elaboration so I lopped 'em off...
  1. Mysticism is the integral experience of reality
  2. Experience is the conscious touch of reality
  3. Reality is neither subjective nor objective: it is our Mythos
  4. The Mythos is the ultimate horizon of presence, the first step of consciousness
  5. Consciousness is consciousness of things, of itself, or pure consciousness
  6. Pure consciousness is a love-filled presence
  7. The mystical experience is in direct relation to the totality of the human condition
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
From Mysticism and Spirituality, Vol 1: Mysticism, Fullness of Life.

I had wanted to make a thread on these before because I thought they might provoke discussion and I love them, but I ended up trying to explain all of them and it was getting really long and I ditched the effort. Instead, this time I'm just going to post them as aphorisms without elaboration, although they surely need at least some, and we'll see where it goes :p

There are really two more but they are more technical and don't really stand without elaboration so I lopped 'em off...
  1. Mysticism is the integral experience of reality
  2. Experience is the conscious touch of reality
  3. Reality is neither subjective nor objective: it is our Mythos
  4. The Mythos is the ultimate horizon of presence, the first step of consciousness
  5. Consciousness is consciousness of things, of itself, or pure consciousness
  6. Pure consciousness is a love-filled presence
  7. The mystical experience is in direct relation to the totality of the human condition

A few questions before I formulate a reply to this most excellent OP:

Just for clarification, by "Mythos" do you mean "a pattern of beliefs expressing often symbolically the characteristic or prevalent attitudes in a group or culture "? Or does the author have a specialized philosophical meaning for that? #4 says "the first step of consciousness": Does this mean mythos gives rise to consciousness in our heads, or that consciousness expresses itself first in mythos before expressing things via rationality?

In this context, what is meant by "integral"? It makes me think of Ken Wilber.

#7 needs some elucidation on the grounds of vagueness. What kind of direct relation? A reflection of the human condition?
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
Just for clarification, by "Mythos" do you mean "a pattern of beliefs expressing often symbolically the characteristic or prevalent attitudes in a group or culture "? Or does the author have a specialized philosophical meaning for that?

Panikkar uses the word in a couple of ways which are distinct but where he sees a connection between them. I think of all his terminology it might be the hardest word to fully grasp everything he's trying to get at.

He does indeed use the word "mythos" as something like a synonym for worldview, but what he is emphasizing in the sutras, I think, is the idea that experience is immediate and unquestionable in the way that "myth" as worldview is unquestioned by those for whom it truly functions as myth. Once you question your myth, it is no longer really your myth. Myth must be innocent if it is to be mythos. This idea might explain why certain attempts to rescue traditional myths (think of young-earth creationism) are so damaging. We have lost our innocence, and it can't be regained. We can no longer believe them in an immediate and unquestioned way. This is not a bad thing, as the phrase "lost innocence" might seem to imply, i'm only trying to tease out what mythos is attempting to get at here.

The phrase "ultimate horizon" is meant to signify the connection between the unquestionable immediacy of experience and the fact that our worldview, the sort of background or horizon of all our subsequent thinking, is unquestioned, but conditions all of our thinking and understanding.

Further, the point is that the "conscious touch" of reality is prior to the analytical mind which distinguishes the subject from the object. Reality itself, and our participation in it (we "touch" reality, we have a direct contact with it) is prior to any such analysis. He writes: "In Summary: Reality is the substrate on which we rest in order to say anything about it. It follows that we can neither objectify nor subjectify it. It is the given -- what is given to us, our starting point that we have called mythos."

#4 says "the first step of consciousness": Does this mean mythos gives rise to consciousness in our heads, or that consciousness expresses itself first in mythos before expressing things via rationality?

The latter, that consciousness expresses itself prior to rationality.

There is also a progression here. Experience is elaborated as conscious touch, which does not have the character of subject/object epistemology but of the foundational quality of mythos. This may be called presence, a synonym for conscious touch, but one which notices also that it's not just my own presence. While reality is neither subjective nor objective, I am aware of presence which is not merely my egoic self, my own "subject", and yet is not purely an object "out there" either. That presence is found in consciousness, and when my consciousness becomes pure, transcending awareness of things and of the self, this presence is full of love. That flow of terms in the first six sutras is what particularly draws me to these. It seems to say very well what is my own experience.

In this context, what is meant by "integral"? It makes me think of Ken Wilber.

#7 needs some elucidation on the grounds of vagueness. What kind of direct relation? A reflection of the human condition?

(1) and (7) are related in that the crucial idea is that of totality and integration. Mystical experience is the experience of the Whole of Reality, which is not merely the sum of the "parts", even if it is an experience of "wholeness" in and through the part, as for example if one experiences the whole while looking at a flower. "Every flower which wafts its scent into the outer world speaks of the mystery of the Whole", goes one translation of a line from Rumi.

But that experience is also an experience that requires your entire person. Your "whole" and "integrated" person. The usage in (1) is certainly similar to how Wilber describes integral life or consciousness. The point here is that it's not just an intellectual experience, or even only a "spiritual" experience, but in order to be complete it must integrate everything that I am, whatever anthropology is conceived of. Body, mind, spirit, emotion, aesthetics, and even the importance of those parts of your "person" which are not strictly individual: family and culture and worldview.
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
Panikkar uses the word in a couple of ways which are distinct but where he sees a connection between them. I think of all his terminology it might be the hardest word to fully grasp everything he's trying to get

Further, the point is that the "conscious touch" of reality is prior to the analytical mind which distinguishes the subject from the object. Reality itself, and our participation in it (we "touch" reality, we have a direct contact with it) is prior to any such analysis. He writes: "In Summary: Reality is the substrate on which we rest in order to say anything about it. It follows that we can neither objectify nor subjectify it. It is the given -- what is given to us, our starting point that we have called mythos."

This sounds like Brahman, in that it is the substrate of reality.

The latter, that consciousness expresses itself prior to rationality.

There is also a progression here. Experience is elaborated as conscious touch, which does not have the character of subject/object epistemology but of the foundational quality of mythos. This may be called presence, a synonym for conscious touch, but one which notices also that it's not just my own presence. While reality is neither subjective nor objective, I am aware of presence which is not merely my egoic self, my own "subject", and yet is not purely an object "out there" either. That presence is found in consciousness, and when my consciousness becomes pure, transcending awareness of things and of the self, this presence is full of love. That flow of terms in the first six sutras is what particularly draws me to these. It seems to say very well what is my own experience.


This sounds like you are talking about the nondual, the erasure of subject/object.

(1) and (7) are related in that the crucial idea is that of totality and integration. Mystical experience is the experience of the Whole of Reality, which is not merely the sum of the "parts", even if it is an experience of "wholeness" in and through the part, as for example if one experiences the whole while looking at a flower. "Every flower which wafts its scent into the outer world speaks of the mystery of the Whole", goes one translation of a line from Rumi.

But that experience is also an experience that requires your entire person. Your "whole" and "integrated" person. The usage in (1) is certainly similar to how Wilber describes integral life or consciousness. The point here is that it's not just an intellectual experience, or even only a "spiritual" experience, but in order to be complete it must integrate everything that I am, whatever anthropology is conceived of. Body, mind, spirit, emotion, aesthetics, and even the importance of those parts of your "person" which are not strictly individual: family and culture and worldview.

I think the mystical experience is the part that hints at the whole we can never know.
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
This sounds like Brahman, in that it is the substrate of reality.

Brahman, God, Ground of Being, Sunyata, Being, he would say that in some sense these are all homeomorphic equivalents, without thereby meaning that they are all exactly the same. But yet, I think both his conception of divinity, and mine, and even the eastern Christian theology, is more comparable to Brahman than to the omni-max Supreme Being of the popular Abrahamic conception.

This sounds like you are talking about the nondual, the erasure of subject/object.

Yes. Advaita is important in Panikkar's thinking, which he also associates with Trinity, in that the relation between the trinity is advaita, as in the advaitic relation between Atman/Brahman. Again, allowing for differences in expression and real differences in experience between traditions, but emphasizing that there seems to be something equivalent at the core of both experiences.

I think the mystical experience is the part that hints at the whole we can never know.

I'd agree with that. And yet there is sort of that yes and no. It is never known as an object of knowledge, but it is nevertheless known in participation. It is never comprehended but it is fully experienced in the part. It is the silent dimension of the real, the hidden, etc.
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
This sounds like you are talking about the nondual, the erasure of subject/object.

Sometimes the oblivion of history is amusing. By which I mean for years I had heard of this sort of "subject/object nonduality" and first thought of it as a new-agey thing, and then an advaita vedanta thing, but basically always an eastern philosophy thing, exclusively. So anyway last night I'm rummaging through this book of selected writings by Maximus Confessor (7th century monk and theologian) and in a collection of aphorisms about "knowledge" (meaning experience) he writes:

"Every concept involves those who think and what is thought, subject and object. But God is neither of those who think nor of what is thought for he is beyond them. Otherwise he would be limited if as a thinker he stood in need of the relationship to what was thought or as an object of thought he would naturally lapse to the level of the subject thinking through a relationship. Thus there remains only the rejoinder that God can neither conceive nor be conceived but is beyond conception and being conceived. To conceive and to be conceived pertain by nature to those things which are secondary to him"
It is interesting just how universal this sort of insight is from contemplative tradition.
 

mystic64

nolonger active
From Mysticism and Spirituality, Vol 1: Mysticism, Fullness of Life.

I had wanted to make a thread on these before because I thought they might provoke discussion and I love them, but I ended up trying to explain all of them and it was getting really long and I ditched the effort. Instead, this time I'm just going to post them as aphorisms without elaboration, although they surely need at least some, and we'll see where it goes :p

There are really two more but they are more technical and don't really stand without elaboration so I lopped 'em off...
  1. Mysticism is the integral experience of reality
  2. Experience is the conscious touch of reality
  3. Reality is neither subjective nor objective: it is our Mythos
  4. The Mythos is the ultimate horizon of presence, the first step of consciousness
  5. Consciousness is consciousness of things, of itself, or pure consciousness
  6. Pure consciousness is a love-filled presence
  7. The mystical experience is in direct relation to the totality of the human condition

I like number 7 :) . To me the key to understanding it is the word "condition". You reach a point as a mystic where you understand the totality of the human condition. The good, the bad, and the ugly. And along with that understanding is the understanding that there is nothing to judge. Either in self or in others.

And a lot of folks claim that you can not understand God (or the altimate of reality), but this is not true. The problem is the simplicity of it all because it does not seem to fit. And therefore it can not be real. From there the only conclusion that one can make is that it can not be understood. It is funny how simplicity can destroy foundations and one's grasp of what is supose to be real.
 
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