Swamishri in North America!

[mahesh]

Well what more could you understand that i dont? I mean i have read the major scriptures of the Sampraday that Bhagwan Swaminarayan established. Now what can you teach me about Agna and Upasna that i have not heard or understood of already? There lays nothing more. This Satsang has 175 Authentic scriptures written by Nandsantos and Bhagwan Himself (the Siksapatri). None of them show the path which you follow.Now how can you state " you will never understand" ?

Ive seen a couple of parchas with my own eyes, and i mean real ones. How can you teach me any different?

I understand why you are stating what you do. But its true that i will never follow what you do again. Ive already made that mistake before, but i guess thats how i learnt and thus advanced.

For my own good, we know where reality lays. The very reality Swaminarayan Bhagwan established Himself never to be changed, mingled or compromised with like what these offshoots are doing.

Be careful in what you do. Thats all i can say. At least not take avgun of what Bhagwan stated. You may achieve moksh in later few lives but never if you take avguns like you have done on your other post, such as when you stated avgun of Shriji Maharaj by saying Laksminarayan Dev doesnt live in Vartal anymore.

Even Sadguru Nand Sant Gunatiatand Swami states no to such. Will you not listen to him even?

 

[mahesh]

Where is such an upasna stated By Bhagwan? If Pramukh Swami is still on earth why do you do praan praishtha on him? What does this achieve? Please reply.

Also what type of Ahavaan Mantra calls him into the Murti? Also where is this Ahavan Mantra stated in the Vedas or Purans or even the Swaminarayan Sampradays shastras?

Also what do the followers achieve from doing darshan of Pramukh Swamis murti?

I genuinely want to know so please reply with sensible answers.

Jai Swaminarayan.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

Prahumkh Swami isnt everywhere all the time.

 

[mahesh]

Where in the Swaminarayan Scriptures does Bhagwan Swaminarayan state that the gurus murti should be consecrated upon?

Your answer doesnt answer my questions.

Where is such an upasna stated By Bhagwan? If Pramukh Swami is still on earth why do you do praan praishtha on him? What does this achieve? As No past Acharya or even nand padvi sant has allowed such type of worship nor consecration of His murti whilst alive nor after life.

What type of Ahavaan Mantra calls him into the Murti? Also where is this Ahavan Mantra stated in the Vedas or Purans or even the Swaminarayan Sampradays shastras?

 

[Don Penguinoini]

OK you won, happy? Bye

 

[mahesh]

Its not about winning, nor am i "happy" in what you state above. Im not here to win. Im here in hope that someone will understand Swaminarayan Bhagwans philosophies and principles the way He established for all to understand.

 

[Moses the God Archetype*]

It is lord krsna's teachings that set the path for swaminarayan, and when my lord was hear he raised the bar indeed, who else none other than him that set the path for india history and turned that continent into a nation, your guruji may indeed be a incarnation of the lord vishnu for he has many, but it is understood that lord krsna is the avatari, now...................me saying this is not mean't to deride your faith for it is divine indeed but my lord is spoken of in a indirect

 

[Moses the God Archetype*]

m:It is lord krsna's teachings that set the path for swaminarayan, and when my lord was hear he raised the bar indeed, who else none other than him that set the path for india history and turned that continent into a nation, your guruji may indeed be a incarnation of the lord vishnu for he has many, but it is understood that lord krsna is the avatari, now...................me saying this is not mean't to deride your faith for it is divine indeed.:namaste

 

[Don Penguinoini]

Umm... double post.... God has no image.. All gods are manifestations of the supreme, there are no higher and lower gods, different gods are like looking at god from a different angle.

 

[mahesh]

There is only one God. He has Many avtaars. Bhagwan Swaminarayan Is Sarva Avtaari Purshottam Bhagwan. Shri Krishna is His very first Purush Avtaar who resides in Golok. He is Him and Him is He.
?Krishna Bhakta Jay Shree Krshna and Jay Shree Swaminarayan Your devotion towards Lord Shree Krshna is truly admirable. It is delightful to see such intense devotion that requires one to reject any other claimant that He is Krshna to be false. Indeed it would inevitably mean that any other faith is ‘blind faith’.It must be said that your nishtha-faith for Lord Shree Krshna is enviable. No doubt, you are a follower of the Gaudiya Sampraday as further propagated by Srila Prabhupada. The issues and concerns you have raised have a consistent theme to what followers of the ISKCON cult often voice. Again, these concerns are worthy of sympathy as everyone should have the sense of security of knowing that their faith or following is ‘the best’. The fact that you have held, read and analysed the Holy Shikshapatri is proof alone of the noble reason for Shree Sahajanand Swami to write the Holy Shikshapatri. I am doubtful as to whether you would have taken the time and effort to delve into the Shikshapatri had it had no relevance to Lord Shree Krshna. The Holy Shikshapatri is a universal scripture encompassing the essence of all the holy scriptures such as Srimad Bhagawatam, Srimad Bhagwat Geeta and Shree Vasudev Mahatmay (Skanda Puran). Before Shree Sahajanand Swami arrived in the Uddhav Sampraday, the then Acharya Shree Ramanand Swami led the devotion towards Shree Ramachandra Bhagwan. Ramanand Swami’s Guru’ Shree Ramanuj Acharya’s devotion was focused towards Shreemann Narayan – Lakshmi Narayan. Under Shree Sahajanand Swami’s leadership the Uddhav Sampraday’s isthadeva was Lord Shree Krshna and Lord Shree Nar Narayan. Shree Sahajanand Swami’s isthadev since childhood was Lord Shree Krshna. During that part of the 18th century in Western India there was numerous faiths, followings, cults and movements each with different and contradicting philosophies, teachings and practices. At times there were more ‘incarnations’ of God than followers themselves. A further reason for Sahajanand Swami accepting Lord Shree Krshna into the Swaminarayan Sampraday as istadeva was because a) Lord Shree Krshna was a true incarnation of Godb) Shree Sahajanand Swami preferred the Bhakti marga that Lord Shree Krshna propagatedc) Lord Shree Krshna was a universally accepted form of God For Shree Sahajand Swami to immediately make claims that He is an incarnation of the Lord Supreme, the population would reject Him as another one of those self-proclaimed bogus ‘Gods’.In fact Shree Sahajanand Swami was a great admirer of the Vaishnav bhakti tradition and adopted many of its practices for the Swaminarayan Sampraday.
Concerns about Shree Sahajanand Swami’s authenticity surface from the fact that there are many self-styled Gods prevalent in and outside India and it becomes necessary to question their authenticity.

For the moment, we shall not enter in to discussion about His supremacy. It is first vital to establish that He was Bhagwan, or at least an incarnation of Bhagwan.

In the Shikshapatri Shlok 108 Sahajanand Swami writes

Quote:
“sa sri krshnaha param brahma bhagvaan purushotamaha
upasya ishtadevo naha sarvaavirbhaav kaaranam”


Quote:
"That isvara is Shree Krshna who is PraBrahma Bhagwan Purushottam
and our most cherished deity (istadeva).
He is worthy of being worshipped by us all (upasya). He is the cause of all
manifestations and incarnations"
​

As an elaboration to this shloka, Sadguru Shree Shatanand Muni writes in Artha Dipika (Shikshapatri Bhashya)

Quote:
"yaha saakshaat bhagvaan ksharakhara paraha krshnaha
sa eva svayam bhaktau dharmat aas, bhoori krupaya sri svaminarayanaha
maanushyam bhuvi naatayannijjan acharyatvadharme sthitaha
krshnam praha parokshavann tu tatonyaha sosti yatsa svayam”


Quote:
“That live (saakshat) God (bhagvan) Krshna who is above kshar and akshar, appeared from Bhakti through Dharma as Swaminarayan; assumed a human body on the earth like a dramatist (natta).
That Krshna whilst observing the (human’s) dharmas of an Acharya speaks in third person (parokshavann) but that Krshna is none other than Himself”
​

i.e. that Krshna that Swaminarayan Bhagwan speaks of is none other than Himself, however Krshna is referred to by Swaminarayan Bhagwan in third person form (parokshavann) because Swaminarayan Bhagwan is writing the Shikshapatri in the capacity of an Acharya or Guru (acharyatvadharme).

This forms the fundamental basis of the Shikshapatri. Swaminarayan Bhagwan was indeed a Guru, Sadhu, Acharya, Teacher and even a devotee of Krshna. But this does not contradict His status as God.
For if this were the case then Lord Rama was a King and fulfilled His role as the ruler of Ayodhya. Lord Krshna was a cowherd and later the King of Dwarika. Also, Lord Nar Narayana were brahmchari-rishis performing tappascharya in Badrik Ashram. Does this imply that they were not God just because they were kings, a cowherd or rishis? Of course not. Similarly, Swaminarayan Bhagwan was a devotee of Krishna, a Sadhu, an Acharya a Teacher as well as being Lord Himself.


Continued....

 

[mahesh]

The shastras openly proclaim that God manifests Himself numerous times whenever and wherever He seems fit. Srimad Bhagwad Geeta:

Quote:
“yada-yada hi dharmasya galnir bhavati bharata
abhyutthanam adharmasya tada 'tmanam srjanmy aham
paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam
dharmasamsthapanarthaya sambhavami yuge-yuge "


Quote:
“O Bharta (Arjuna), whenever there is a decline of righteousness
and a rise of unrighteousness, then I manifest Myself
For the protection of the virtuous, for the destruction of the
wicked and for establishing righteouseness, I come into being from age to age”
Chapter 4 verses 7 and 8
​

and Srimad Bhagwatam:

Quote:
" I also assume other bodies to protect religion
and to end irreligion whenever it
flourishes in the course of time."
10th Skandha, 50th Adhyay 10th Shlok
​

Also:

Quote:
"yada hy adharmena tamo-dhiyo nrpa jivanti
tatraisa hi sattvatah kila dhatte bhagam satyam
rtam dayam yaso bhavaya rupani dadhad yuge yuge"

“Whenever there are kings and administrators
living like animals in the lowest modes of existence,
the Lord in His transcendental form manifests His supreme power,
the Truth Positive, shows special mercy to the faithful,
performs wonderful activities and manifests various transcendental forms as is
necessary in different periods and ages.”
1st Skandha, 10th Adhyay, 25th Shlok
​

In Mahabharata, Van Parva Shree Krishna vows to Markandey Muni

Quote:
"daitya hinsanuraktashcha, hyavadhya sur sattamaihi
raakshasaaschapi lokesmi-nyadotpdhati darunaha
tadaham sampradaysangyami, gruheshu shubh karmanam
pravishto manusham deham, sarvam prasahmayamyaham"

"When the evil, indulgent in vices such as violence, emerges than
I manifest to those who have virtuous deeds (shubh karma).
I assume human bodies and destroy all those"
​

More specific references to the arrival of Sahajanand Swami, referring to His accomplishments during His time as human on earth, exist in Srimad Bhagwat where Vyas writes:

Quote:
"keerat hunandhra pulind pushkasa,
aabhir kanka yavanaha khasaadayaha
ye-nye cha papa yadupashrayashraya
shuddhyanti tasmey prabhvishnave namaha” 2nd Skandha, 4th Adhyay, 18th Shlok

"Kirata, Huna, Andhra, Pulinda, Pulkasa, Abhira, Sumbha,
Yavana, members of the Khasa races and even others addicted to sinful acts
will be purified by taking shelter of the devotees of the Lord,
due to His being the supreme power. I beg to offer my respectful
obeisance unto Him who is to appear"
​

In addition, Padma Puran, Brahmand Puran, Vishvaksen Samhita, Vishnu Dharmottar Puran also forecast the coming of Swaminarayan Bhagwan referring to "name of Sahajanand" "son of Dharmadev" "known as Swami" etc.

As an additional comment, the Samudrik Shastras state that God and God only has the 16 marks and symbols on His feet. In the Padma Puran Brahmaa tells Narad that He has witnessed sixteen sybols/marks on the Lord of all incarnations' feet. The very sixteen symbols/marks can be found on the lotus feet of Sahajanand Swami.




The arrival of an avatar is accompanied by a purpose. The purpose of Krishna avatar is well discussed by Krishna Himself. In the Srimad Bhagavatam, Krishna declares His intentions of coming on this earth as well as His intention to return.

Quote:
"haniñyämi balaà hy etad
bhuvi bhäraà samähitam
mägadhena samänétaà
vaçyänäà sarva-bhübhujäm
akñauhiëébhiù saìkhyätaà
bhaöäçva-ratha-kuïjaraiù
mägadhas tu na hantavyo
bhüyaù kartä balodyamam"
10th Skandha 50th Adhyay Shlok 7 and 8

“Since it is such a burden on the earth, I will destroy Jarasandha’s army, consisting of akñauhiëés of foot soldiers, horses, chariots and elephants, which the King of Magadha has assembled from all subservient kings and brought together here. But Jarasandha himself should not be killed, since in the future he will certainly assemble another army”
​

Continued ....

 

[mahesh]

Quote:
"etad-artho ’vatäro ’yaà
bhü-bhära-haraëäya me
saàrakñaëäya sädhünäà
kåto ’nyeñäà vadhäya ca"
shloka 9

“This is the purpose of My present incarnation—to relieve the earth of its burden,
protect the pious and kill the impious”


Quote:
“anyopi dharma-rakshayaii
deha sambhriyate maya
viramayapy adharmasya
kale prabhavatau kvacit”
shlok 10

"I also assume other bodies to protect religion and to end
irreligion whenever it flourishes in the course of time"
​

It can be concluded that the evil people will return, many of them as rulers and kings indulging in vices - and for the removal of such adharma the Lord will assume other forms.

Turning to the Vasudev Mahatmay (Skandha Puran, Vishnu Khand) it clearly states that the vow by Lord Krishna is indeed further verified in more detail:

Quote:
"Maya krshnen nihitaha sarujunen raneshu ye
Pravartayishyantya suraaste tvadharma yada k****au.
Dharmadeva ttada murtau, narnarayanatmana
Pravrte-pi kalau Brahman! Bhutvaham samago dvijaha
Munishapannrutam praptam, sarshim janakaatmanaha
Tato-vita gurubhyoham saddharmam sthapayannaja"
18th Adhyay Shloks 43-44

“When the asuras who were killed by Myself and Arjuna
begin to spread wickedness on earth, I will be born in a Bhramin family
to Dharmadev and Murti from Nar Narayana.
I, with many other rishis, will receive a shaap (curse) from a
Muni to come on the earth to a
Samved Bhramin family to protect
the religion from evil gurus and rulers.”
​

The Lord clearly defines how He will return to destroy that evil He spoke of earlier. He will be born to Dharmadev and Bhaktidevi (as did Swaminarayan Bhagwan), to a Samvedi Brahmin family (as was Swaminarayan Bhagwan). The incident of the sabha in Badrik Ashram and Duravasa Rishi's curse is also mentioned here.

Thus it is clear that God returned to establish ekantik dharma against the evil elements that had returned from the time of Vasudev Shree Krshna.

It is true that Swaminarayan Bhagwan advocated the worship of Radha-Krishna, but this was to appease the Vaishnavas who were most prevalent in West India. A glimpses of His underlying intention can be found in the Shikshapatri shlok 209:

Quote:
"vakra bhaavetu pujaiv, karya-spaha prativasaram
madroopam iti madvani, manyeyam paramaadarat"

"When there is none (who can read out the Shikshapatri) it shall be worshipped daily
as you should be assured with respect that My words are My concrete and manifest form"
​

Bhagwan Shree Swaminarayan is addressing His illiterate followers, instructing them to worship the Shikshapatri as if it were Swaminarayan Himself, thereby revealing that He was to be worshipped.

When interpreting the Shikshapatri, Bhagwan Shree Swaminarayan has instructed us to refer to the Sampraday' shastras in Shlok 203

Quote:
"eeti sankshepto dharmaha, sarvesham likhita maya
sampradayik granthebhyo, gney eshamtu vistaraha"

"I have enclosed a summary of the dharmas for all (in this Shikshapatri).
For a detailed elaboration(vistaraha) (of this Shikshapatri) refer
to the shastras of My Sampraday"
​

These shastras have been defined to include Vachanamrut, Srimad SatsangiJeevan, Shree Hari Digvijay, Bhaktachintamani and Desh Vibhag no Lekh in particular.

When referring to those Shastras we find Bhagwan Shree Swaminarayan often praising Lord Shree Krshna and at times referring to Himself as the Supreme. This is due to the audience which He is addressing where just as in the Shikshapatri, Swaminarayan Bhagwan makes a clear attempt to make it appealing to all virtuous people whether they believe in Swaminarayan as God or not.

If He were to openly declare "I, as God, am writing this Shikshapatri.." it would rejected and even ridiculed by those outside the Sampraday and this would hinder His objective of redeeming countless souls.

Further in Artha Dipika – Shikshapatri Bhasya we find the following statement

Quote:
“nanvastan sri krshnasya parabrahmatvam moolpurushsya bhagavatastu krshnashabda vachyatvam na ghatate. Dvaaparante devaki vasudevabhyam avirbhavantaram krshnam prvrtti siddheriti chettann. Vasudev gruh aavirbhaavatpragev bhagavataha krshnakhyatve sakalam brahmvaivarta puran mev pramanam”.
As a commentary to Shikshapatri Shlok 29.
​

The eternal Krshna though is the Parabrahma but the name does not suit MoolPurush (original causal personality) because the God (as Mool Purush) manifested at the end of Dwapara to Devaki and Vasudev and then Gargacharya named Him ‘Krshna’. Note, that after the birth of God to Dharmadev and Bhaktidevi, Markandey Rushi named Him Krshna (as well as Hari and HariKrshna). Therefore whoever says that the name ‘Krshna’ became prevalent after His arrival (in Mathura at the end of Dwapara to Vasudev and Devaki) is not right in doing so, because God's eternal name is Krshna (all attractive) and even before manifesting to Vasudev and Devaki Brahmvaivarta Puran uses the term Krshna many times over.
The Srimad Bhagavatam in 1st Skandha, 3rd Adhyay, 28th Shloka therefore declares after listing 24 avatars including Vasudev Krishna that
“ete chamsh kalaha pumsaha, krshnastu bhagavan svayam”

i.e. all these (i.e.24 listed including Vasudev Krshna) are various portions of the Supreme. Bhagavat refers to this same ‘eternal’ Krshna, that Artha Dipika speaks of, as Bhagwan Himself.

No followers of the Sampraday should be referred to as ‘fools’ as you have done after jumping to conclusions based on false or incomplete information. The ‘asthakshara mantra of Shree Krshna’ is the Guru Mantra as given by the Acharya of the Sampraday. It has 8 ‘aksharas’ and refers to the eternal Shree Krshna.

Just as in the Shikshapatri, in the Vachanamrut Lord Swaminarayan addresses the audience in a manner which appeals to them, at times referring to Himself as a great bhakta (who can be worshipped alongside Lord Shree Krishna) and often revealing Himself as the Supreme Reality.
It is worthy to note, that wherever in the Vachanamrut where Swaminarayan Bhagwan does indeed reveal Himself, the tone and atmosphere set in the beginning of the Prakaran is of a serious nature.
At times, He even discloses His hesitance in imparting these facts for the fear that certain followers' faith will be affected.

A few Vachanamrut where Swaminarayan Bhagwan suggests He is a bhakta and/or Guru are: Gadhada Pratham 44; Gadhada Pratham 48; Gadhada Madhyam 28 and Vadtal 18.

In many Vachanamruts, Swaminarayan Bhagwan reveals His true identity. Such Prakarans include: Loya 7 and 11; Gadhada Madhya 13; Amdavad (Ahmedabad) 6 and 7 as well as Gadhada Antya 38.

Finally, when Swaminarayan Bhagwan decided to establish mandirs He declared that He will install His own images. Moreover, He even installed His present image as Hari Krshna Maharaj in mandirs such as Vadtal.

The grandeur of the Swaminarayan Sampraday lies in its ability to accommodate a variety of schools of belief, namely accept Swaminarayan only as a Guru; accept Swaminarayan as an incarnation or accept Swaminarayan as the Incarnator Supreme.

Either way, a follower would be obliged to adhere to the precepts laid down in the sarva-jiv-hitavaha Holy Shikshapatri thereby attaining maha-sukh - the ultimate happiness in this world and beyond.

So maybe you have been slightly hasty in suggesting that followers are going against Swaminarayan Bhagwan’s teachings. Without full knowledge or familiarity of the Sampraday established by Shree Sahajanand Swami it is difficult to put things into perspective. In your case, where you are devoted to Lord Shree Krshna, the teachings of the Holy Shikshapatri would apply to you where each shlok could be taken literally at face value.

I am somewhat bemused as to why, despite having such firm conviction that followers of the Swaminarayan Sampraday are ‘wrong’, you have chosen to remain anonymous. If you have specific questions relating to the Sampraday then we will be more than pleased to help you; but hiding behind the veil of anonymity suggests more of an intention to bicker and less of a desire to learn.


in the age of Kali, intelligent persons perform congregational chanting to worship the incarnation of Godhead who constantly sings the names of Krishna. Although His complexion is not blackish, He is Krishna Himself. He is accompanied by His associates, servants, weapons and confidential companions.

11th skandh, 5th adhyay, shlok 32


Jay Swaminarayan

 

[mahesh]

m:It is lord krsna's teachings that set the path for swaminarayan, and when my lord was hear he raised the bar indeed, who else none other than him that set the path for india history and turned that continent into a nation, your guruji may indeed be a incarnation of the lord vishnu for he has many, but it is understood that lord krsna is the avatari, now...................me saying this is not mean't to deride your faith for it is divine indeed.:namaste

Kindly comment on the verse from Bhagvatam 10.89.58 then :

[Lord Mahā-Viṣṇu said:] I brought the brāhmaṇa's sons here because I wanted to see the two of you, My expansions, who have descended to the earth to save the principles of religion. As soon as you finish killing the demons who burden the earth, quickly come back here to Me.


Here Maha Vishnu is saying that Krishna and Arjuna are his incarnations, not the other way round.

Every Purana that lists the avatars of Vishnu always without exception lists Krishna as an avatar of Vishnu. Start with the Bhagavata Purana where the avatars of Vishnu are listed in at least 2 different places. One is mentioned above and the other list appears in the third chapter of the first Canto. In both places, Krishna is listed as Vishnu's avatar. Another reference I have is Garuda Purana 1.86.10. Again, Krishna is mentioned as an avatar of Vishnu.

Check the Vishnu Purana, believed to be the most authentic of all Puranas. In chapter I of Book 5 Maitreya asks Parashara "I desire to hear a description of Vishnu who came down upon earth, and was born in the family of Yadu". Parashara described how times were troubled and the devas went to Hari seeking a solution. Hari tells them that he will incarnate on earth as the eight son of Devaki and put an end to their troubles.


Vishnu incarnated as Krishna on earth to control evil during troubled times and to re-establish correct Dharma. I suggest you widen your horizons by spending some time to read more and get a bigger picture. Then you can make confident assertions on discussion forums as you will then be able to justify your position.

 

[mahesh]

Bhai my place is not to put someone in place for maan(to boost my ego). I do so for their own good. So that they do not take Avgun agaainst the truth of Sarvaavtaari Purshottam Swaminarayan.

Even when i speak of BAPS. I wish people understand reality. What Swaminarayan Bhagwans principles and siddhants were, What He established. Unfortunately whats being followed by breakaway sects is not this. It would be great if it was. How they behave is uup to them but at least follow the correct Upasna and Agna of Bhagwan Swaminarayan. I sauy this not because i want to boost my ego or put people in their place, I do so you may realise eternal truth. True Upasna and Agna. And for your own sake make Bhagwan happy.

Jai Swaminarayan

 

[mahesh]

"eeti sankshepto dharmaha, sarvesham likhita maya
sampradayik granthebhyo, gney eshamtu vistaraha"

"I have enclosed a summary of the dharmas for all (in this Shikshapatri).
For a detailed elaboration(vistaraha) (of this Shikshapatri) refer
to the shastras of My Sampraday"

 

[mahesh]

Thats what Bhagwan Swaminarayan stated. Hence the shastras are very very VERY important.

 

[celina]

Murti Darshan

Atlanta Murti Pratishtha Video

 

[MaddLlama]

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