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"Swayam Bhagavan" is almost solved

Stormcry

Well-Known Member
Pranam ,

Though many vaishnawas consider krishna as avatara of vishnu , I usually come in contact with many gaudiyas who constantly show me that " svayam bhagavan " verse to prove krishna as origination of mahavishnu. In reality , that verse is completely misunderstood by them . That verse is in relation with verse where vyasa says that humans ,manus are parts of vishnu .

If we read bhagavata purana , we come to know that shaunaka sages were interested in mainly krishna avatara . Besides they asked suta " who was krishna who was born from vasudeva and devaki ? In next verse , after stating all incarnations of vishnu , he says that manus and other humans are ansha of vishnu . But krishna is bhagavan swayam . He says this only to distinguish between krishna and parts of vishnu like sages ,manu,prajapti

Besides , In many puranas , krishna is described in incarnations of vishnu . In the same bhagavata purana , Krishna is described as " kalavatar"

भूमेः सुरेतरवरूथविमर्दितायाः ।
क्लेशव्ययाय कलया सितकृष्णकेशः ॥ भागवत पूरण २.७.२६ ॥

To destroy evils , ishwara as dark ( krishna ) and white hair ( balarama ) , will take birth by a ansha ( part ). [ In vishnu purana also , krishna and balaranma are described as part of mahavishnu . ]

So according to me , every avatara of mahavishnu is kalavatar and bhagavan simultaneously. From above verse , we certainly come to know that ansha is just an imagination with respect to formless bramhan . Ansha is just like a reflection of sun in a pot . That reflection of sun appears as a part of big sun . It is totally identical to the big sun and appears as a finite aspect of big sun . In the same way , krishna is totally identical to formless bramhan but appear as a human form ie as a part of supreme formless infinite bramhan . Sages had considered this point and imagined avatara as ansha of bramhan .

When krishna appears as a krishna , his formless nature doesn't get tainted . Because maya has no any existence at all . Through the view of bramhan , krishna takes maya is somewhat meaningless . He appears in his real infinite formless nature And this would be the truth .

Conclusion : Krishna is avatara of mahavishnu . Only mahavishnu is the origination of all avataras including krishna . Because he is the first purusha avatara of bramhan at the time of creation . :)

Hari NARAYANA
 
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Asha

Member
Jai Shree Krishna

Hinduism♥Krishna;3640800 said:
Pranam ,

Though many vaishnawas consider krishna as avatara of vishnu , I usually come in contact with many gaudiyas who constantly show me that " svayam bhagavan " verse to prove krishna as origination of mahavishnu. In reality , that verse is completely misunderstood by them . That verse is in relation with verse where vyasa says that humans ,manus are parts of vishnu .


Throughout hundreds of years vaisnava schollars have debated this issue,

Ramanujacharya opposed advaita vedanta veiws of an impersonal Bhraman and posited that Brahman had personal qualities, every tradition since has had differences of opinions as to those qualities and the name to be given to the lord, Svayam Bhagavan.

Conclusion : Krishna is avatara of mahavishnu . Only mahavishnu is the origination of all avataras including krishna . Because he is the first purusha avatara of bramhan at the time of creation . :)

Hari NARAYANA

These names we aply and as you said before threre are many names of Visnu, does it realy matter to argue wether Krishna is an incarnation of mahavisnu , or mahavisnu is an epithet for Krishna ?

We could waste so much time on these debates or instead we could follow the the often quoted ''Bhaja Govindam'' ''Bhaja Govindam''.... ''it is the only way ''
 

Amrut

Aum - Advaita
Namaste,

According to one Gaudiya Vaishnava, they are concerned more with rasa tatva, hence they say that Krishna is the original supreme godhead. What they say is that Vishnu is an avarat or manifestation of Krishna. Maha Vishnu is different from Vishnu. they consider Maha Vishnu as origin of all and then split into Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesha (Rudra). so they all are expension. while they associate Vishnu with Maha Vishnu, but they consider Brahma and Shiva as Jiva Tattva, but yet they give them special status like eshan for Rudra and as para bhAgavatas.

It is for the reason that when it comes to rasa tatva, then one as to approach to Krishna only and not even Rama, as you can worship him with dAsa bhAva and vAtsalya bhAva (rAma lAlA, infact RAma), but not any other type. Atmost there can be sakhA bhAva, but Rama is not usually associated with prem bhakti.

This is the reason why though they have achintya bheda-abheda, they avoid sayuujya mukti and keep worshipping Krishna eternally and enjoy his lila.

As Krishna is to supreme Godhead, keeping in consideration the context of rasa tatva, they claim that Krishna as Supreme Godhead.

Maha Vishnu Tatva = Sada Shiva Tatva = Brahman
Vishnu = Shiva (Rudra) --> manifestation of Supreme Godhead

Vishnu is devotee of Sada Shiva and Shiva is devotee of Maha Vishnu.

btw, I have not been able to find Maha Vishnu in veda-s. but my study is very limited.

HLK, you have given good explanation of Krishna is Vishnu and not a part of him. But the verse does not specify him to be original godhead in the sense that he is source of NarayaNa / Vishnu also.

Some advanced Gaudiya-s also accept yogic interpretations, while for beginners, they stress on literal meaning when it comes to Krishna and his worship. They consider those accepting Yogic explanations as sahajiya-s and often confuse them with vAmacAri-s.

I hope this helps to solve confusion.

Hari OM
 

Stormcry

Well-Known Member
Indiaspirituality Amrut said:
HLK, you have given good explanation of Krishna is Vishnu and not a part of him

:) What you have said this ?

I proved that krishna is avatara of mahavishnu and through the tatwa dnyana, there is no any difference between krishna and ultimate formless bramhan.

Certainly, krishna is avatara of vishnu. Now is krishna kalavatar or purnavatara ?
What do you think, ISA ?

The above verse of Bhagavata clearely shows that krishna is kalavatar . I still believe that krishna is poornavara of vishnu.

If we consider krishna as complete avatara of bramhan and partial avatara of vishnu ? ISA, is it fine ? Share ur views.

Hari narayana
 
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Amrut

Aum - Advaita
Hinduism♥Krishna;3642006 said:
:) What you have said this ?

I have never objected what you have said. I generally agree what you say. But I do not support the motivation behind your saying simply because it may not be good for your own spiritual development.

I proved that krishna is avatara of mahavishnu and through the tatwa dnyana, there is no any difference between krishna and ultimate formless bramhan.

Certainly, krishna is avatara of vishnu. Now is krishna kalavatar or purnavatara ?
What do you think, ISA ?

The above verse of Bhagavata clearely shows that krishna is kalavatar . I still believe that krishna is poornavara of vishnu.

If we consider krishna as complete avatara of bramhan and partial avatara of vishnu ? ISA, is it fine ? Share ur views.

Hari narayana
From my limited understanding, Sri VidyAraNya svAmI in his master piece panchdaSI says that mAyA is eka deSiya quoting gita verse where bhagavan says, that I created this world from my ansh.

Regarding kalAvtAra, it is said that there are in total 16 kalA-s. NArAyaNa descended with all 16 kalA-s, thereby he is called as pUrNa avatAra. In other words Sri Krishna bhagavan manifested 16 kalA-s. Sri RAma, as some say, manifested 12 or 14 kalA-s. Rest were latent, like fire is hidden in latent form in wood, else wood cannot burn. Only God knows the reason behind this :) . But just for explanation, one reason was to keep respect of vardAna (boon) of Lord Brahman ji given to RAvaNa. Only Human being can kill him. Hence he has to keep some kalA-s as latent. Else all avatars, IMHO are equally potent.

From advaita POV, all forms of Brahman are equal :), be it Rama, Krishna, Narayana or Shiva. God is both with form and formless. Sri Ramakrishna explain this in simple way

EDIT: In my earlier post, I just pointed out, why Gaudiyas say what they say (my study is very limited, corrections welcome) :)

Hari OM
 
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Asha

Member
Jai Shree Krishna Amrut prabhu




This is beautifull '' only God knows the reason behind this ''......

Sometimes we canot know, our capacity is too limited. And without this we would never come to love God, we would never develop the humility.
And even those who develop the understanding of god never loose their Humility as in realising God they realise his wonderous and profound nature in which nothing is beyond his capabilities.

To try to find God by interlectual reasoning alone is a difficult path filled with many obsticals, this to my mind is the reason behind the Gaudia empasis on Bhakti.

the link you have given , This is a very nice analogy...(allthough I cant quote it yet..not for 15 posts ?)

''Sachinanda is like an infinate ocean .......''



Hari OM
 

Amrut

Aum - Advaita
Jai Shree Krishna Amrut prabhu




This is beautifull '' only God knows the reason behind this ''......

Sometimes we canot know, our capacity is too limited. And without this we would never come to love God, we would never develop the humility.
And even those who develop the understanding of god never loose their Humility as in realising God they realise his wonderous and profound nature in which nothing is beyond his capabilities.

To try to find God by interlectual reasoning alone is a difficult path filled with many obsticals, this to my mind is the reason behind the Gaudia empasis on Bhakti.

Hari OM

Jai Shri Krishna Asha ji,

All paths including Advaita are solely dependent upon grace of God.

While doing Japa, if the mantra continues by itself, then one becomes observer. After that our mind should remain rooted in the source of mantra. Rest all mantra is capable of doing. Hence a meditator will not do anything to get rid of thoughts and desires. What is to be done is done by something which is root of all and you, as an individual, have no hand in it says Sri Ramana Maharshi.

It is but natural that Ego will melt as one progress in spirituality. After the above experience no seeker of truth will take everything in his/her hands. He/she will not take credit of his success himself. He will say my Guru did, his Guru will hand it over to either God or his Guru (Paramguru) and so on it goes on until we reach Adi Guru NarAyaNa or Shiva. Advaita ParamparA begins with both nArAyaNa and Shiva, some say it is NArAyaNa, some say it is Shiva.

Ofcourse advaita is not for everyone, as it belongs to fourth ashram.

What HLK is saying is that we have to chant Krishna's name, but finally one has to realize one's true nature after one is capable enough to meditate advaita way. In case of pure bhakti, we can say that a devotee leaves everything on God. Hence it is the responsibility of God to give what is best for him. So Krishna will give you Jnana and give you Self realization either directly to via a Guru. I think this is what a very famous saint and an avatar Sant GyAneSvara / dyAneShavara taught. Chant hari naam, and finally realize your true nature. It is much easy than traditional or classical advaita which has some pre-requisites.

What is said that Bhakti is the best for Kali Yuga is generally true for masses. But there are people of all prakruti. Some are Yog-braSTa jivAtmA-s. They are born with purity of mind or some rare purity their mind with intense meditation, such people have very neutral and strong mind. They may go for Jnana Marg and chances of them getting success is greater than someone who just try to follow intellectually.

Intellectual analysis is only in the beginning. Atman cannot be known by logical reasoning or analysis. It is known by the grace of Guru. It is realized by those whom Atman / Brahman chooses :)

As said above regarding the process of Japa, when mind is rooted in the source, which is the substratum of entire universe, thoughts do not have power to shake it. It remains rooted. But as we have desires, it again falls down and we are in duality.

while dealing in samsAra, we comply or work according to smriti-s or say what is right from vyavahArika POV Empirical POV. While the non-dual view and abheda bhakti is restricted to meditation only not while dealing with others. Though due to effect of meditation, one may feel constant peace and bliss even during working in office, we do not try to stay in advaita state.

So while interacting with others stay in duality or say behave normally. Father remains father, teacher remains teacher, but as soon as the interaction is complete, one makes mind introvert and forgets everything and the mantra pops up again.

People generally keep agruing, 'I am Brahman' etc and make fun of advaita as how can you live in society :) this is not the case, as explained above.


the link you have given , This is a very nice analogy..

''Sachinanda is like an infinate ocean .......''

Thank you. Just to make a note that my blog is compromised. There are scripts in my blog to load customized TOCs (sitemap). The author or coder's blog abu-farhan.com is also hacked. Someone is trying to insert some malicious code via Abu Farhan's blog. Hence some pages in which TOC is loaded, either of date or label or of any label like 'Meditation' it will show a warning.

I am trying to fix it, but may take some time. Please avoid visiting my website to be safe.

.(allthough I cant quote it yet..not for 15 posts ?)

maybe. I don't remember.

Hari OM
 

Asha

Member
Jai Shree Krishna Amrut ji

Thank you for your very conscice post, I would very much like to discuss your points individualy but canot use the quote function 8 post to go :)

but certainly all paths depend on the grace of God and Guru.
 

Amrut

Aum - Advaita
Jai Shree Krishna Amrut ji

Thank you for your very conscice post, I would very much like to discuss your points individualy but canot use the quote function 8 post to go :)

but certainly all paths depend on the grace of God and Guru.

Namaste Asha ji,

You can write

Amrut: ... (in italics)

and give your reply below

or start a new thread and give link here.

Hari OM
 

Stormcry

Well-Known Member
amrut said:
What HLK is saying is that we have to chant Krishna's name, but finally one has to realize one's true nature after one is capable enough to meditate advaita way. In case of pure bhakti, we can say that a devotee leaves everything on God. Hence it is the responsibility of God to give what is best for him. So Krishna will give you Jnana and give you Self realization either directly to via a Guru. I think this is what a very famous saint and an avatar Sant GyAneSvara / dyAneShavara taught. Chant hari naam, and finally realize your true nature. It is much easy than traditional or classical advaita which has some pre-requisites.

Well said !

Dnyaneshwara stresses only on nama japa . He always say " bhaj govindam bhaj govindam " " Do not waste time by following another path , only chant hari's nama . All puranas and veda glorifies only shri krishna and that krishna is your atma "

" Hari is vaikuntha and I am seeing him everywhere and I worship him only "

" Parabramha is nirguna and nirakara and it is the only essence of all scriptures and that scripture's secret is HariChintana and hari's presence is in both nirguna and saguna "

" There is no mukti without bhakti " " Knowing the tat twam asi from a realised guru , you will realise yourself as parabramhan " " I like to live with vaishnawas and I am seeing hari in all beings and in these forests " " Those who do not worship hari , is patit abhakta " " I meditate on sakar hari and he is dearest to me "

" So always chant ram krishna hari " " By chanting hari hari , all sins get washed away and there only remains parabramhan. "

In this Dnyaneshwara instructs only on hari nama in his HariPath scripture . However dnyaneshwar himself was a topmost realised yogi and bhakta . In his bhagavad gita bhashya , he describe the yogik method to attain bramhan in very details .


jai shri hari narayana :)
 
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Amrut

Aum - Advaita
Hinduism♥Krishna;3643857 said:
Well said !

Dnyaneshwara stresses only on nama japa . He always say " bhaj govindam bhaj govindam " " Do not waste time by following another path , only chant hari's nama . All puranas and veda glorifies only shri krishna and that krishna is your atma "

" Hari is vaikuntha and I am seeing him everywhere and I worship him only "

" Parabramha is nirguna and nirakara and it is the only essence of all scriptures and that scripture's secret is HariChintana and hari's presence is in both nirguna and saguna "

" There is no mukti without bhakti " " Knowing the tat twam asi from a realised guru , you will realise yourself as parabramhan " " I like to live with vaishnawas and I am seeing hari in all beings and in these forests " " Those who do not worship hari , is patit abhakta " " I meditate on sakar hari and he is dearest to me "

" So always chant ram krishna hari " " By chanting hari hari , all sins get washed away and there only remains parabramhan. "

In this Dnyaneshwara instructs only on hari nama in his HariPath scripture . However dnyaneshwar himself was a topmost realised yogi and bhakta . In his bhagavad gita bhashya , he describe the yogik method to attain bramhan in very details .


jai shri hari narayana :)

Namaste HLK,

Thank you for sharing views of Sant Dyaneshvara. I think that the upadesha for masses is different and Upadesha for sanyAsins or advanced sAdhaka are different.

This is the reason why saints, including advaitin saints advice chanting Hari nAma and sing KruShNa or RAma bhajans of rat times Shiva bhajans. Since NArAyaNa is the one who is responsible for taking care of the universe and us, mostly people advice chanting either RAma or KruShNa nAma.

Later on yogic aspects are explained and or advaitic concepts are unfolded on select few :)

Hari Nama is the easiest and safest way to reach the supreme. Rest we must leave it to God :)

Hari OM
 

Amrut

Aum - Advaita
Thank you. Just to make a note that my blog is compromised. There are scripts in my blog to load customized TOCs (sitemap). The author or coder's blog abu-farhan.com is also hacked. Someone is trying to insert some malicious code via Abu Farhan's blog. Hence some pages in which TOC is loaded, either of date or label or of any label like 'Meditation' it will show a warning.

Hari OM

Namaste,

Blog Restored. Everything is OK.

Hari OM
 
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