Sympathy for the Devil

[Faint]

So I was thinking that the biblical Lucifer might have gotten a bad rap. I still don't believe in the religion at all (or Satanism for that matter), but for the sake of arguement, let's say that there is a God and there is a Satan. If this is the case, I'm wondering if Satan could really be as bad as the Bible makes him out to be. Here are some things to consider:

1) According to Genesis, if it weren't for him, none of us would exist. The serpent's actions prompted Adam and Eve to sin and get kicked out of the garden and breed mankind. People should be grateful to him for this.

2) Satan is thought to be the ruler of Hell, but if you really look at the situation, God is the one who allows Hell to exist at all. If God is all powerful, he could easily eliminate this realm from existence, thus ending the torment of all those souls. Which leads me to the next point...

3) Maybe God isn't strong enough to beat Satan. Perhaps this is the reason that Hell continues to exist, and why the devil keeps interferring with his plans?

4) Satan rebelled because he wasn't content. We should take this as a warning that not everyone will be happy in heaven.

5) RF has frequently had posts from people pointing out questionable passages in the Bible where God's actions can be considered immoral. If the good book is leading people wrong ethically, we might question the validity of its claims that Satan is truly evil. Perhaps it's just a smear campaign against another diety? A lot of religions seem to have a good god and a bad god (or gods), what if the Bible was inspired by the bad god and the name of the good god is actually Satan?

6) As far as I know, Satan doesn't give anyone orders or threaten to have them tormented if they refuse to accept him.

Disclaimer: These things may sound tongue and cheek but I'm not trying to provoke anyone. What I am wondering is if upon consideration you think these points are valid and that maybe Satan has been misunderstood and is not as bad as a lot of people seem to think he is. If not, I'd love to hear your reasons why.

 

[Melody]

1) According to Genesis, if it weren't for him, none of us would exist. The serpent's actions prompted Adam and Eve to sin and get kicked out of the garden and breed mankind. People should be grateful to him for this.

Since I believe that all goes according to God's design, and I admit to not knowing what His grand plan is, I'm pretty sure that God had this covered. In fact, since God knows the choices people make until the end of time, He already knew what Satan would do...and Adam...and Eve.

2) Satan is thought to be the ruler of Hell, but if you really look at the situation, God is the one who allows Hell to exist at all. If God is all powerful, he could easily eliminate this realm from existence, thus ending the torment of all those souls. Which leads me to the next point...

3) Maybe God isn't strong enough to beat Satan. Perhaps this is the reason that Hell continues to exist, and why the devil keeps interferring with his plans?

God has dominion over all things but allows Satan this time and place for His (God's) plan to unfold.

4) Satan rebelled because he wasn't content. We should take this as a warning that not everyone will be happy in heaven.

I'll give you this one....but am equally as certain they will be less happy with the alternative...whatever that may be.

5) RF has frequently had posts from people pointing out questionable passages in the Bible where God's actions can be considered immoral. If the good book is leading people wrong ethically, we might question the validity of its claims that Satan is truly evil. Perhaps it's just a smear campaign against another diety? A lot of religions seem to have a good god and a bad god (or gods), what if the Bible was inspired by the bad god and the name of the good god is actually Satan?[/faint]

Sounds like something Satan would think up....just enough truth to make even the most devout doubt. Personally, I don't judge God's actions as immoral or moral. He is what He is and I will simply admit to not understanding his grand design.

6) As far as I know, Satan doesn't give anyone orders or threaten to have them tormented if they refuse to accept him.

I agree. He doesn't have that power.

 

[robtex]

good post!

1) According to Genesis, if it weren't for him, none of us would exist. The serpent's actions prompted Adam and Eve to sin and get kicked out of the garden and breed mankind. People should be grateful to him for this.

Two further questions:

a) Eating the forbidden fruit was the first act of free will. If they had not eaten it and man did exactly as God said for eternity than there would be no free will. Satan by tempting Eve and Adam gave us the path of free will. God by attempting to micro-manage our life let it exist but frowns on its use.

b) The eating of the forbidden fruit led to the attainment of wisdom. For this Adam and Eve were banished. God frowned on the attainment of human wisdom yet Satan embraced it.

2) Satan is thought to be the ruler of Hell, but if you really look at the situation, God is the one who allows Hell to exist at all. If God is all powerful, he could easily eliminate this realm from existence, thus ending the torment of all those souls. Which leads me to the next point...

a) If Satan is allowed to rule a part of the universe than Satan has some power. If Satan has such power that is greater or equal to 1 % or higher than how can god be omnipotent which is to say he has 100 % of power?

b) If God allows hell to exist and Satan embraces the act of free will and attainment of wisdom than is hell the afterlife for those embracing free will and the attainment of wisdom?

3) Maybe God isn't strong enough to beat Satan. Perhaps this is the reason that Hell continues to exist, and why the devil keeps interferring with his plans?

I don't remember God battling any other diety or supernatural power.

4) Satan rebelled because he wasn't content. We should take this as a warning that not everyone will be happy in heaven.

Or maybe being content by ones own accord is in fact a sin and submission is the act of being sinless.

5) RF has frequently had posts from people pointing out questionable passages in the Bible where God's actions can be considered immoral. If the good book is leading people wrong ethically, we might question the validity of its claims that Satan is truly evil. Perhaps it's just a smear campaign against another diety? A lot of religions seem to have a good god and a bad god (or gods), what if the Bible was inspired by the bad god and the name of the good god is actually Satan?

My understanding is that the Chrisitian God cannot be question in terms of morality. He is the alpha and the omega. He does and his followers accept. To question any of God's actions is to disobey him and that is what Satan did. Open mindedness is satanic, completely faithful without question is Godly.

6) As far as I know, Satan doesn't give anyone orders or threaten to have them tormented if they refuse to accept him.

Nor did Satan kill, torture or intimidate any of his believers. He didn't write a book of laws and he didn't create a smear campaign against God. God however did all of the above. Satan's fall from grace was his pursuit of wisdom and his quest for free will. The rest of the attributes given to this deity are given by a jealous and vengeful God if the bible is a book of fact. If actions speak louder than word and you line up the numbers of deaths, imprisoments, torture, and intimidation by the two in the bible ...Satan comes out smelling like a rose.

 

[Melody]

a) If Satan is allowed to rule a part of the universe than Satan has some power. If Satan has such power that is greater or equal to 1 % or higher than how can god be omnipotent which is to say he has 100 % of power?

Because he only has the power that God gives to him. God, if He chooses, can take that power away. Satan cannot give or take any of God's authority without God's permission.

Satan's fall from grace was his pursuit of wisdom and his quest for free will.

His fall from grace was from pride. He wanted to set himself above or make himself equal to his Creator. He tried the same ruse on Adam and Even when he told them that God didn't want them to eat because they would be like God. I do not believe it was knowledge God wanted to keep from Adam and Eve. I think the tree of knowledge story was more about putting their putting faith in human knowledge, rather than faith in God. With their faith in God, they had eternal life. By putting their faith in themselves (wanting to know the difference between good and evil), they lost their chance at eternal paradise. Along with that they now had free will to choose which path they would follow. I suppose to some, being in God's hands might be hell.

The rest of the attributes given to this deity are given by a jealous and vengeful God if the bible is a book of fact. If actions speak louder than word and you line up the numbers of deaths, imprisoments, torture, and intimidation by the two in the bible ...Satan comes out smelling like a rose.

That's only because the bible does not say much about what Satan does to his disobedient followers once they are in his hands and under his control. Also, the bible is just snippets of a history between God and His chosen people. The full story is unknown.

 

[robtex]

Because he only has the power that God gives to him. God, if He chooses, can take that power away. Satan cannot give or take any of God's authority without God's permission.

and we all know what happens if you do something without premission from God.

His fall from grace was from pride. He wanted to set himself above or make himself equal to his Creator. He tried the same ruse on Adam and Even when he told them that God didn't want them to eat because they would be like God. I do not believe it was knowledge God wanted to keep from Adam and Eve. I think the tree of knowledge story was more about putting their putting faith in human knowledge, rather than faith in God. With their faith in God, they had eternal life. By putting their faith in themselves (wanting to know the difference between good and evil), they lost their chance at eternal paradise. Along with that they now had free will to choose which path they would follow. I suppose to some, being in God's hands might be hell.

I don't remember pride being a contingency in the bible story. I will go back and read it when I have more time. But if so, are you saying pride is a sin and must be punished? There was nothing about putting faith in themselves, but even so faith and confidence in onceself is a sin. You make christianty sound a lot like endentured servent when you present it this way.

That's only because the bible does not say much about what Satan does to his disobedient followers once they are in his hands and under his control. Also, the bible is just snippets of a history between God and His chosen people. The full story is unknown.

Don't you think it is logical to go by what is recorded and opposed to guess at what is unrecorded? Satan in the bible doesn't view disobendience as punishable. Only God does. From the tract record of recorded texts, aka the bible.....the only info we have to go on...God kills tortures, intimates and punishes repeatly. Satan does not. One can only come to two conclusions

1) God kicks more tail for disobedience than satan
2) satan kicks more tail than god for disobedience yet god choose not to reveal that fact through sacred text.

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

Faint,

Great thread.

Rob,

Now you just stop that business of applying logic to theological discussions. Tho I just noticed
the letters l-o-g-i-c do fall right in the middle of the word theological, so I guess I can let it
slide, just this once.

I also noticed that Satan gets the blame for a lot of amorphous "evil" and "wickedness" in the
Bible, but I don't recall him actually killing too many people. Even Job, who was tormented
to a very high degree was not killed by Satan. And by the way, didn't Satan kind of ask God
for permission to torment Job, claiming if Job was afflicted enough, he would curse God? As
I recall the story, God allowed all of Job's servants, all his animals, his wife and his innocent
little children to be killed just to prove a point with Satan.

Neither God nor Satan sound like very good guys in this story. Poor old Job and his family are
being tormented and killed respectively so these two fellas can settle a bet. Neither one of
them are exhibiting any characteristics I would like to emulate.

Lots of stories about God ordering killings, very few deaths directly related to Satan
that I can recall, other than the ones he got permission for from God in the story of
Job. Satan seems to get the rap for evil most often involving sins of the flesh, from
my recollection of the Bible. And if I gotta go see Old Hob for sins I have committed,
those are the ones I would rather go down for.

So I would conclude that it is entirely possible Satan got a bad rap. And the thread title is a very
nice homage to The Stones, which is always a nice touch.

B.

 

[Aqualung]

Satan doesn't kill people because so many people are choosing to kill people on their own.

 

[Malus 12:9]

What an ODD thing for an LDS to say, AL

 

[ChrisP]

I don't remember pride being a contingency in the bible story. I will go back and read it when I have more time. But if so, are you saying pride is a sin and must be punished? There was nothing about putting faith in themselves, but even so faith and confidence in onceself is a sin. You make christianty sound a lot like endentured servent when you present it this way.

Incidentally Pride is number one of the seven deadly sins: Pride, Envy, Wrath, Sloth, Greed, Gluttony Lust.

Good movie too

 

[Malus 12:9]

This thread is a GUns and Roses song

 

[Darkdale]

This thread is a GUns and Roses song

oh.... you are so young! It is a Rolling Stones song luv!

 

[ChrisP]

oh.... you are so young! It is a Rolling Stones song luv!

LOL, it's like Behind blue eyes. isn't that such an awesome Limp Bizkit song

 

[Faint]

I also noticed that Satan gets the blame for a lot of amorphous "evil" and "wickedness" in the
Bible, but I don't recall him actually killing too many people. Even Job, who was tormented
to a very high degree was not killed by Satan. And by the way, didn't Satan kind of ask God
for permission to torment Job, claiming if Job was afflicted enough, he would curse God? As
I recall the story, God allowed all of Job's servants, all his animals, his wife and his innocent
little children to be killed just to prove a point with Satan. . .
Lots of stories about God ordering killings, very few deaths directly related to Satan
that I can recall, other than the ones he got permission for from God in the story of
Job. Satan seems to get the rap for evil most often involving sins of the flesh, from
my recollection of the Bible. And if I gotta go see Old Hob for sins I have committed,
those are the ones I would rather go down for.

So I would conclude that it is entirely possible Satan got a bad rap. And the thread title is a very
nice homage to The Stones, which is always a nice touch.

Thanks Mdm, good points. Ha! Sins of the flesh--sounds like a good Friday night to me. Anyway, Job is just one example of millions. All we need to do is scan the current news stories to see more examples of bad things happening to other humans. People still like to blame these things on Satan. If he existed, I wonder if the old morningstar would be laughing his head off. "The devil made me do it" or "We sold our soul for rock n roll". I doubt he would even care enough to make anyone do anything, or if it would be worth his time and money to go around buying souls. People seem to be doing just fine at committing wicked deeds, just as God is doing just fine by not stopping them. Now, another question, if inaction (on Gods part) is still action in non-assistance (since he doesn't tend to help those who need help), does that mean that God is going to hell for the sins he's allowed?

Incidentally Pride is number one of the seven deadly sins: Pride, Envy, Wrath, Sloth, Greed, Gluttony Lust.

I wouldn't say all of these sins are bad. For example, I think it's important to be proud of who you are. I wouldn't fault Lucifer for being prideful (some might even say ambitious). I've also had a lot of fun with lust, actually.

 

[ChrisP]

I wouldn't say all of these sins are bad. For example, I think it's important to be proud of who you are. I wouldn't fault Lucifer for being prideful (some might even say ambitious). I've also had a lot of fun with lust, actually.

Well you are a hedonist after all

 

[Aqualung]

What an ODD thing for an LDS to say, AL

Odd? Pray tell, malus, how is that odd?

LOL, it's like Behind blue eyes. isn't that such an awesome Limp Bizkit song

Hehe. Yeah, Limp Bizkit sure in innovative!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This thread is a GUns and Roses song

I will admit there COVER started going through my head when I read the thread title, but like Draka said, it's a Rolling Stones song. GNR sang the cover for the soundtrack to Interview With A Vampire.

LOL, it's like Behind blue eyes. isn't that such an awesome Limp Bizkit song

I like The Doors original, but I would prefer Limp Bizkit's cover of it.

 

[Draka]

So I was thinking that the biblical Lucifer might have gotten a bad rap. I still don't believe in the religion at all (or Satanism for that matter), but for the sake of arguement, let's say that there is a God and there is a Satan. If this is the case, I'm wondering if Satan could really be as bad as the Bible makes him out to be. Here are some things to consider:

1) According to Genesis, if it weren't for him, none of us would exist. The serpent's actions prompted Adam and Eve to sin and get kicked out of the garden and breed mankind. People should be grateful to him for this.

2) Satan is thought to be the ruler of Hell, but if you really look at the situation, God is the one who allows Hell to exist at all. If God is all powerful, he could easily eliminate this realm from existence, thus ending the torment of all those souls. Which leads me to the next point...

3) Maybe God isn't strong enough to beat Satan. Perhaps this is the reason that Hell continues to exist, and why the devil keeps interferring with his plans?

4) Satan rebelled because he wasn't content. We should take this as a warning that not everyone will be happy in heaven.

5) RF has frequently had posts from people pointing out questionable passages in the Bible where God's actions can be considered immoral. If the good book is leading people wrong ethically, we might question the validity of its claims that Satan is truly evil. Perhaps it's just a smear campaign against another diety? A lot of religions seem to have a good god and a bad god (or gods), what if the Bible was inspired by the bad god and the name of the good god is actually Satan?

6) As far as I know, Satan doesn't give anyone orders or threaten to have them tormented if they refuse to accept him.

Disclaimer: These things may sound tongue and cheek but I'm not trying to provoke anyone. What I am wondering is if upon consideration you think these points are valid and that maybe Satan has been misunderstood and is not as bad as a lot of people seem to think he is. If not, I'd love to hear your reasons why.

Actually not only do I agree with this, but was just thinking along the exact same lines shortly before I even found this thread.

 

[Malus 12:9]

I know it's both G&R and rolling stones, but like most people today, they only know covers

 

[ChrisP]

I will admit there COVER started going through my head when I read the thread title, but like Draka said, it's a Rolling Stones song. GNR sang the cover for the soundtrack to Interview With A Vampire.

I like The Doors original, but I would prefer Limp Bizkit's cover of it.

Please be under 20! the original's by the Who. I will admit to moshing round my room listening to Break stuff at one point... but once again, a cover by Limp Bizkit. Kudos to Dr Dre for the original, but I don't like him either, too much shooting and tequila. Tequila BAAAddd Whiskey GOOD :162:

Ok I'll leave the thread to the topic now.

 

[James the Persian]

1) According to Genesis, if it weren't for him, none of us would exist. The serpent's actions prompted Adam and Eve to sin and get kicked out of the garden and breed mankind. People should be grateful to him for this.

Actually there's no way you can possibly know what would have happened had Satan not tempted Adam and Eve. The Bible certainly doesn't tell us anything about it so this is pure supposition. I have no doubt that much of what did happen after the Fall would have happened anyway without it, including the Incarnation. This view is in line with Patristic sources.

2) Satan is thought to be the ruler of Hell, but if you really look at the situation, God is the one who allows Hell to exist at all. If God is all powerful, he could easily eliminate this realm from existence, thus ending the torment of all those souls. Which leads me to the next point...

Actually this is a very common misunderstanding (maybe it should go in the misconceptions about Christianity thread?). Satan does not rule hell. Scripture is quite clear that he and his angels will be destroyed in the lake of fire - hell is his ultimate destination but he won't be ruling it. And in the Orthodox view, God does not create hell either, we do. That being the case, the only way He could will it out of existence would be to take away our free will and prevent us rejecting Him.

3) Maybe God isn't strong enough to beat Satan. Perhaps this is the reason that Hell continues to exist, and why the devil keeps interferring with his plans?

See above. Scripture is quite clear that God will beat Satan.

4) Satan rebelled because he wasn't content. We should take this as a warning that not everyone will be happy in heaven.

Satan rebelled because he wanted to rule in the place of God. It was kind of a heavenly coup d'etat. Such pride filled and egotistical people certainly won't be happy in heaven, but as we see both heaven and hell as the same 'place' (God's presence) but different states of experiencing it, they won't be in heaven, but hell.

5) RF has frequently had posts from people pointing out questionable passages in the Bible where God's actions can be considered immoral. If the good book is leading people wrong ethically, we might question the validity of its claims that Satan is truly evil. Perhaps it's just a smear campaign against another diety? A lot of religions seem to have a good god and a bad god (or gods), what if the Bible was inspired by the bad god and the name of the good god is actually Satan?

Yes some religions are dualist. Christianity is not. Satan is not a god and he most certainly is not god's equal. He is merely an angel with an over-inflated view of his own importance.

6) As far as I know, Satan doesn't give anyone orders or threaten to have them tormented if they refuse to accept him.

He can't. He only has the power God allows Him to have.

James