Sympathy for the Devil

[michel]

Satan rebelled because he wanted to rule in the place of God. It was kind of a heavenly coup d'etat. Such pride filled and egotistical people certainly won't be happy in heaven, but as we see both heaven and hell as the same 'place' (God's presence) but different states of experiencing it, they won't be in heaven, but hell.




James

But that it intself brings up an interesting philosophical question, James.

If satan had not rebelled, would he have been nullifying the whole purpose of our existance ? - without him to tempt us into evil ways, and to choose which way we are 'going to go' there would be no reason for life at all.

That seems to presuppose that God needed a 'Satan' - and would that not be cruel of him (knowing that he was in need of someone who would have to be eternally punished ?)

 

[Radar]

So what I am taking from this is pride is a bad thing according to christians, but pride is preached to everyone all the time. Take pride in your work... Be proud of who you are... Be proud to be christian....

So I guess there should be no proud christians because pride is a sin...

As far as the satan is concern I think he does get a bad rap or the short end of the stick. It is like god created him to be the fall guy. Satan seems the more just of the two. Besides it was god that created evil not satan.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

So satan probably not such a bad guy. Satan never asked to be worshipped. Satan never killed an entire planet of people. Satan never punished anyone for using their free will. But god will torment you forever if you use your free will and decide not to worship him or believe in Jesus even though you may be a good person.

But I really doubt the existance of either and choose neither of the two.

 

[Radar]

But that it intself brings up an interesting philosophical question, James.

If satan had not rebelled, would he have been nullifying the whole purpose of our existance ? - without him to tempt us into evil ways, and to choose which way we are 'going to go' there would be no reason for life at all.

That seems to presuppose that God needed a 'Satan' - and would that not be cruel of him (knowing that he was in need of someone who would have to be eternally punished ?)

Tried to give you frubals but was denied. I need to spread some karma around before giving any more to you. Good post...:clap

 

[Melody]

So what I am taking from this is pride is a bad thing according to christians, but pride is preached to everyone all the time. Take pride in your work... Be proud of who you are... Be proud to be christian....

False pride is a bad thing. Yes, take pride in your work....meaning do a good job...one you would be happy to admit you did....but to think you're superior than someone else because of that good job....that's different.

 

[Melody]

and we all know what happens if you do something without premission from God.

Yep...same thing that happens when my kids do something without permission. They may not understand why I made the rules, but they still must obey my rules.

No...faith and confidence in yourself is not a sin...until you begin to think you are somehow equal to or above God because you *think* you've figured it out.

There is another conclusion. God didn't think it was important for people to know what Satan did to his followers because it doesn't matter and the bible is not about Satan. Satan isn't used as the stick to make you turn to God. We don't know how Satan views disobedience, nor how he punishes it.

One could make the assumption that God is a cruel God...but when the stakes are so high -- eternal life or death -- the lessons must be taught in a way that people will sit up and take notice and, to be honest, if we stop looking at ourselves, we would realize that our 80 or so years on this planet is not even a blink in God's eyes.

Sorry, little sleep last night so my answers aren't as coherent as they could be.

 

[Radar]

False pride is a bad thing. Yes, take pride in your work....meaning do a good job...one you would be happy to admit you did....but to think you're superior than someone else because of that good job....that's different.

Pride

1. A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect.
2. Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, possession, or association: parental pride.
3. Arrogant or disdainful conduct or treatment; haughtiness.
4. 1. <LI type=a>A cause or source of pleasure or satisfaction; the best of a group or class: These soldiers were their country's pride.
   2. The most successful or thriving condition; prime: the pride of youth.
5. An excessively high opinion of oneself; conceit.
6. Mettle or spirit in horses.
7. A company of lions. See Synonyms at flock[size=-1]1[/size].
8. A flamboyant or impressive group: a pride of acrobats.

Where is superior in the meaning of pride... Oh it's not!

 

[Merlin]

In fact, since God knows the choices people make until the end of time, He already knew what Satan would do...and Adam...and Eve.

If He knew this was going to happen before He created them, why was He so annoyed when it actually happened? He may as well have missed this first section out altogether, and just set them up outside the garden as a normal couple having normal marital relations.

 

[Faint]

Actually this is a very common misunderstanding (maybe it should go in the misconceptions about Christianity thread?). Satan does not rule hell. Scripture is quite clear that he and his angels will be destroyed in the lake of fire - hell is his ultimate destination but he won't be ruling it. And in the Orthodox view, God does not create hell either, we do. That being the case, the only way He could will it out of existence would be to take away our free will and prevent us rejecting Him.

Is there a passage from the Bible you (or anyone) can cite that shows that we humans create hell? I'm curious.

Satan rebelled because he wanted to rule in the place of God. It was kind of a heavenly coup d'etat. Such pride filled and egotistical people certainly won't be happy in heaven, but as we see both heaven and hell as the same 'place' (God's presence) but different states of experiencing it, they won't be in heaven, but hell.

So it is egotistical to seek to improve one's position in any dominance hierarchy? Or only the celestial kind? If it's the former, most species on this planet (humans included) would be guilty. Nobody wants to be on bottom of the social ladder, and it's often the case that those on the top have it better. I don't buy into the whole "humble yourself" attitude--superiority (divine or otherwise) is usually a matter of perspective. A cat may look at a king, for instance. Moreover, the old "the meek shall inherit the earth" line seems to be another way of saying, "those at the bottom will gain what those on the top have".

 

[ChrisP]

But that it intself brings up an interesting philosophical question, James.

If satan had not rebelled, would he have been nullifying the whole purpose of our existance ? - without him to tempt us into evil ways, and to choose which way we are 'going to go' there would be no reason for life at all.

That seems to presuppose that God needed a 'Satan' - and would that not be cruel of him (knowing that he was in need of someone who would have to be eternally punished ?)

Alternatively Michel,

Satans existence precipitated God's need for us.

ooooo head trip :areyoucra

 

[michel]

Alternatively Michel,

Satans existence precipitated God's need for us.

ooooo head trip :areyoucra

I don't see that; God is the creator - he would still have had to create Satan. From what I understand, you are advocating that God created us to give Satan a job to do ?

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

If you want to continue in your faith, I urge you not to try to think about these things
logically Michel and others. If you begin applying logic to the Bible, it begins to
unravel. Fractures in logic such as the questions you pose about the Devil and his
having been created by God, and how all that plays into the story of the garden leads
to some serious problems of logic.

Predestination vs. Free Will when you consider God's omniscience and foreknowledge fits in this
same category. The issue of why did God bother creating Satan, and did he do it just so Eve
would be tempted, etc. . . . led me to my current religious stance. If you don't want to
wind up where I am spiritually, avoid thinking about the Bible logically. I do not say this
tongue in cheek.

I was raised in church and upon reaching the age of reason, began asking questions similar to
the ones you pose. For me, the end of that road was quite inevitable.

B.

 

[ChrisP]

I don't see that; God is the creator - he would still have had to create Satan. From what I understand, you are advocating that God created us to give Satan a job to do ?

Hi Michel,

What I meant was, Satan's rebellion caused God to create us in order to <insert reason here>. I'm going to go with bolster his numbers/keep Satan distracted.