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Synods & Sophistry: Some Thoughts

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
It's more on how do we deal with people who may violate various teachings or even commit horrendous crimes?
Sure, I know many Catholics who put this spin on it and I understand your position. But quite honestly, this DOES seem to me to be a case where the pope is wanting to change the moral teachings of the church.

"Here’s the problem. Pope Francis has changed the continuous moral teaching of the Church at least twice. The first was in Amoris Laetitia, allowing Catholics in adulterous relationships to receive the Eucharist; and the second was when he declared capital punishment inadmissible."

BTW, someday I should tell you the story of what brought me back to the Church, and if you think I'm nuts now, you haven't seen anything yet!

Take care, my friend.
Oh, I look forward to hearing your story! :)
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
"Here’s the problem. Pope Francis has changed the continuous moral teaching of the Church at least twice. The first was in Amoris Laetitia, allowing Catholics in adulterous relationships to receive the Eucharist; and the second was when he declared capital punishment inadmissible."
You realize that this is from a conservative source, right? PF definitely ain't a conservative.
Oh, I look forward to hearing your story! :)
Have your No Doze ready.

Respond to this post one way or another as I may have some time tomorrow.
 

anna.

colors your eyes with what's not there
Pope Francis clearly desires to reform Catholic practice and doctrine in a more progressive direction. But he cannot do so outright without risking a schism. (Thus, the endless synods). Pope Francis' problem is that the conservatives and traditionalists insist (correctly given the Church's own teaching) that the moral doctrines the progressives wish to undermine or even renounce are non-negotiable truths revealed by God and the natural law. This conservative intransigence is the main hurdle getting in the way of the Francis project thus his endless attacks on conservatives and traditionalists as right-wing ideologues.

The pope is doing what the pope has always had to do, which is herd cats.

The Church weathered the Great Schism, the Reformation, and Vatican II. It's weathering the sex scandals but at great cost. The Pope is still the Pope, unless you're a sedevacantist?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Here is your reminder.
Thanks. If I cover this in even a bit of detail, I would have to use 3+ very lengthy posts, so I think it's better for both of us to keep it short and give you the gist of what happened in 2 shorter posts and then if you want to question and/or respond you can. Here's #1.

Almost 60 years ago when a sophomore at WMU, I dated a petite Italian Catholic woman who changed my life ever since as she was the nicest most caring person I'd ever run across. I treated her as if she was a saint but she dropped me after 5 months. For the next two years I "played the field" and ran across someone very much like her. But then through a quirk of fate, my former girlfriend came back into my life, so I found myself in love with two women at the same time and for whatever reason they were in love with me. I had no clue how this would work out, but Mother Nature solved that problem, and with the latter we've been married for 56 years now. This background is important because of what happened many years later.

A tad over 7 years ago, I was at mass with my wife (I wasn't Catholic) and suddenly I got a weak and then a very strong "premonition" (I never believed in them) that my old girlfriend ["C"] was also praying at the 11:00 mass where she lives, and that really shook me up as I was able to verify this. Over a year+, these happened irregularly averaging 2-3 weeks apart and always at 11:00 mass. I didn't want or like them because I had no idea what this was about and why? Is the Boss trying to tell me something? If so, what and why???

[continued]
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Christians assume that the original gospels are historical. If you have a more complex view, then I salute you. But I would say that makes you untypical.

Christian scholars DO debate whether this passage is part of the Bible. Publishers of teh various translations usually seek a compromise position by including it, but putting it in italics or adding a footnote stating that the earlier manuscripts do not have this passage.
I am not a Christian.
While Christian scholars may debate it, Catholics and most evangelical traditions do use the passage as a canon for their teachings.
I think there is a misunderstanding here. I am not analyzing Catholicism or its ideas of authority as a whole, but saying that Popes' proclamations of not creating standards and authority of judgement about moral issues is more consistent with what Jesus is shown to be saying in the NT consistently. Whether Catholic church can actually reverse its course after 2000 years is a different matter. The church need not condone or condemn....but the habit of doing that is hard to break.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
After a year and a couple of months, these "premonitions" began to lessen in frequency and intensity, which again began to confuse me as why did this happen in the first place and why would the Boss stop at that point if I am being enticed to do something? Then after a few months I got this "message" that I needed to go to St. Thomas More Student Parish on WMU's campus [see my Signature Statement at bottom of my posts] whereas I have gone 3 times with C decades ago even though I wasn't Catholic. I ignored it, thinking just my subconscious was likely spitting it out. But it kept happening and happening without warning or any previous thoughts. But it's a three-hour drive to the church from where we live.

My wife didn't know what I was going through with this because discussing my old girlfriend with her was hazardous to my health ["C" was her main "competition"], and yet my wife knew something was going in with me but didn't know what. Then we then got a freebee to spend 2 nights free at a casino in Battle Creek that's only 30 minutes away from WMU, although I believe that was likely just coincidence.

I finally told her what was happening and that I had no clue why but for an unknown reason I needed to go to the church. She understood (thank God!), so we drove to the casino and dropped her off, although she did ask if I wanted her to go with me. I told her it's best that I go alone as I didn't know what to expect and I needed time to sort this out.

So, I made it in time for mass not knowing what to expect, and as we got about half-way through I knew the Lord's Prayer was coming up and the younger lady near me may hold her hand out for that prayer. So, what should I do? I decided I would hold her hand, and during the prayer I just knew something was happening and got the strong feeling it was to come back to the Church that I had left it for over 20 years.

However, I'm very cautious about making such decisions, so it took 3 months for me to finally decide. I talked to the priest without my wife knowing, and then I shocked her at the next mass when I went up for communion without telling her in advance. She motioned me to sit back down but I had a sh*t-eating smile on my face and she quickly put 2 & 2 together.

One thing happened dealing with C several months later that totally blew my mind even more, and I'd cover that much more briefly than this if you're interested, but I'll stop here because it's not conducive to what happened that led me back to the Church.

Any comments you have are welcome. And if you think I'm nuts, I'll tell ya right now that I thought maybe I was going that way at first.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I am not analyzing Catholicism or its ideas of authority as a whole,
If I may just add that the Gospels have it that "Jesus taught with authority" and that he ordered the Apostles to do the same, thus this is why the Church took that position.

Now, back into my cave.
 

anna.

colors your eyes with what's not there
After a year and a couple of months, these "premonitions" began to lessen in frequency and intensity, which again began to confuse me as why did this happen in the first place and why would the Boss stop at that point if I am being enticed to do something? Then after a few months I got this "message" that I needed to go to St. Thomas More Student Parish on WMU's campus [see my Signature Statement at bottom of my posts] whereas I have gone 3 times with C decades ago even though I wasn't Catholic. I ignored it, thinking just my subconscious was likely spitting it out. But it kept happening and happening without warning or any previous thoughts. But it's a three-hour drive to the church from where we live.

My wife didn't know what I was going through with this because discussing my old girlfriend with her was hazardous to my health ["C" was her main "competition"], and yet my wife knew something was going in with me but didn't know what. Then we then got a freebee to spend 2 nights free at a casino in Battle Creek that's only 30 minutes away from WMU, although I believe that was likely just coincidence.

I finally told her what was happening and that I had no clue why but for an unknown reason I needed to go to the church. She understood (thank God!), so we drove to the casino and dropped her off, although she did ask if I wanted her to go with me. I told her it's best that I go alone as I didn't know what to expect and I needed time to sort this out.

So, I made it in time for mass not knowing what to expect, and as we got about half-way through I knew the Lord's Prayer was coming up and the younger lady near me may hold her hand out for that prayer. So, what should I do? I decided I would hold her hand, and during the prayer I just knew something was happening and got the strong feeling it was to come back to the Church that I had left it for over 20 years.

However, I'm very cautious about making such decisions, so it took 3 months for me to finally decide. I talked to the priest without my wife knowing, and then I shocked her at the next mass when I went up for communion without telling her in advance. She motioned me to sit back down but I had a sh*t-eating smile on my face and she quickly put 2 & 2 together.

One thing happened dealing with C several months later that totally blew my mind even more, and I'd cover that much more briefly than this if you're interested, but I'll stop here because it's not conducive to what happened that led me back to the Church.

Any comments you have are welcome. And if you think I'm nuts, I'll tell ya right now that I thought maybe I was going that way at first.

I have a family story that's too personal to share details on but which involves two other family members and is so far beyond explanation that supernatural is the only way I can see it. Their details matched across years and separated distance in a way that is simply unexplainable. It's not a matter of synchronicity, either, which happens frequently to me and I don't see it as anything other than simple coincidence and maybe just some extra awareness. The other was something very different from that. It involves the idea of an afterlife, I'll say that much, and that's what keeps me hoping.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I have a family story that's too personal to share details on but which involves two other family members and is so far beyond explanation that supernatural is the only way I can see it. Their details matched across years and separated distance in a way that is simply unexplainable. It's not a matter of synchronicity, either, which happens frequently to me and I don't see it as anything other than simple coincidence and maybe just some extra awareness. The other was something very different from that. It involves the idea of an afterlife, I'll say that much, and that's what keeps me hoping.
Thanks for this, and what pops into my mind is Confucius statement [paraphrased] that the more you know, the more you know you really don't know much.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
After a year and a couple of months, these "premonitions" began to lessen in frequency and intensity, which again began to confuse me as why did this happen in the first place and why would the Boss stop at that point if I am being enticed to do something? Then after a few months I got this "message" that I needed to go to St. Thomas More Student Parish on WMU's campus [see my Signature Statement at bottom of my posts] whereas I have gone 3 times with C decades ago even though I wasn't Catholic. I ignored it, thinking just my subconscious was likely spitting it out. But it kept happening and happening without warning or any previous thoughts. But it's a three-hour drive to the church from where we live.

My wife didn't know what I was going through with this because discussing my old girlfriend with her was hazardous to my health ["C" was her main "competition"], and yet my wife knew something was going in with me but didn't know what. Then we then got a freebee to spend 2 nights free at a casino in Battle Creek that's only 30 minutes away from WMU, although I believe that was likely just coincidence.

I finally told her what was happening and that I had no clue why but for an unknown reason I needed to go to the church. She understood (thank God!), so we drove to the casino and dropped her off, although she did ask if I wanted her to go with me. I told her it's best that I go alone as I didn't know what to expect and I needed time to sort this out.

So, I made it in time for mass not knowing what to expect, and as we got about half-way through I knew the Lord's Prayer was coming up and the younger lady near me may hold her hand out for that prayer. So, what should I do? I decided I would hold her hand, and during the prayer I just knew something was happening and got the strong feeling it was to come back to the Church that I had left it for over 20 years.

However, I'm very cautious about making such decisions, so it took 3 months for me to finally decide. I talked to the priest without my wife knowing, and then I shocked her at the next mass when I went up for communion without telling her in advance. She motioned me to sit back down but I had a sh*t-eating smile on my face and she quickly put 2 & 2 together.

One thing happened dealing with C several months later that totally blew my mind even more, and I'd cover that much more briefly than this if you're interested, but I'll stop here because it's not conducive to what happened that led me back to the Church.

Any comments you have are welcome. And if you think I'm nuts, I'll tell ya right now that I thought maybe I was going that way at first.
Thank you SO much for sharing. Its a wonderful share. I feel like I know you much better now. No, I don't think you are nuts. I completely understand how people can have gut level intuitions and suspicious coincidences in their lives. I realize that these things are not definitive proof, but I completely understand why a person would want to "follow their lead." :)
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
And as Pope, he will be aware of Christ's message to those who would judge;

Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?


It seems to me that if Pope Francis has a personal mission, it is that the guidance and values of the church should be more closely aligned with the gospel of love, as clearly articulated in the sermon on the mount.
Yes. That makes "who am I to judge" a statement following what is in the Bible.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Any comments you have are welcome. And if you think I'm nuts, I'll tell ya right now that I thought maybe I was going that way at first.

My comment is that what happened to you has happened to me with many different details. God's "voice" to me comes through premonitions or what I would call intuition. Friends put that in a song with the lyrics including "dance to the rhythm of God". Thanks for sharing.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
I don't suggest God has "changed His mind" on sexual morality. I think it is noteworthy that Christ had almost nothing to say on the subject, apart from marital fidelity.
The Gospel texts teach lifelong heterosexual monogamy as the divine intent. The existence of a divine intent implies the existence of a natural law. Divine intent in creation and natural law are one in the same thing.

It seems to me the church has constructed a doubtful doctrinal edifice on the basis of very little, for instance inventing the rather bogus concept of "natural law", leading for instance to the ludicrous, damaging, and universally ignored ban on contraception itself. It is also indisputably the case that societies have changed over the last 2000 years. This raises at least the possibility that some of the restrictions that applied 2000 years ago originally may no longer be fit for purpose. Premarital sex, in the era of reliable contraception, would be an example.
I agree with you in that if we reject teleology then much of the Church's teaching on sexual morality becomes little more than baseless prohibition. If there is no necessary end of the sexual act then the whole notion of sexual sin becomes defunct. Indeed, it never existed. Sex becomes a game and reproduction but a mere epiphenomenon.

The Church weathered the Great Schism, the Reformation, and Vatican II. It's weathering the sex scandals but at great cost. The Pope is still the Pope, unless you're a sedevacantist?
Sedevacantism is a cope. If the pope can defect then Catholicism is untrue.

Here is the thing:

The Catholic Chruch claims to be the divinely appointed custodian of divine revelation. Infallible and indefectible. Yet its own behavior and policies, its own rhetoric and reversals; its banality in its post Vatican II form utterly betray such a notion. How can I believe the Catholic faith when Rome itself no longer cares about being consistent with its own claims? When it cares more about coddling and implementing progressive ideology than it does the doctrines it claims to be revealed truth?

My faith has near crumbled because under Francis the whole thing looks like a decrepit sham.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Thank you SO much for sharing. Its a wonderful share. I feel like I know you much better now. No, I don't think you are nuts. I completely understand how people can have gut level intuitions and suspicious coincidences in their lives. I realize that these things are not definitive proof, but I completely understand why a person would want to "follow their lead." :)
Thank you so much for this response, especially since I had to keep it so short as much more was involved.

Have a gut Shabbos, my friend.
 

anna.

colors your eyes with what's not there
Sedevacantism is a cope. If the pope can defect then Catholicism is untrue.

Here is the thing:

The Catholic Chruch claims to be the divinely appointed custodian of divine revelation. Infallible and indefectible. Yet its own behavior and policies, its own rhetoric and reversals; its banality in its post Vatican II form utterly betray such a notion. How can I believe the Catholic faith when Rome itself no longer cares about being consistent with its own claims? When it cares more about coddling and implementing progressive ideology than it does the doctrines it claims to be revealed truth?

My faith has near crumbled because under Francis the whole thing looks like a decrepit sham.

I don't know how long you've been a Catholic, whether you're a convert, or remember VII, or know the histories of the bad popes, so I'm lacking your context when you say (in effect) that Pope Francis is the catalyst or the maybe the final straw on your faith's back. If you'd like to provide context that would be helpful, but if not I still think the following will help, and maybe knowing that you aren't the only one who struggles, you're a member of a very large crowd.

I want to add that for a lot of Catholics it wasn't one criticizable pope that crumbled their faith, but the sheer numbers of all the priests who molested the servers who assisted them at the altar of God. In the same way someone who says "but that doesn't change the truth of the faith" because there are bad priests, they should in consistency apply that same logic to the pope.

Anyway: I went to look up some of the bad popes, the Borgias and Medicis and murderers and sexual deviants in the Church's past. And one of the links that came up was so helpful for me that I hope you'll either listen or read (there's a transcript, which I read) to the whole thing, and see if there's any of it that's helpful to you.

There's a point near the beginning which you could tease out as the thesis:

"Augustine’s point is actually a little more subtle, that if you're banking your faith on how personally holy the pope or another church leader is, even if they’re extremely holy, your faith is in the wrong place."

And that's my main point to you. But these guys are good, they bring up some "but what ifs" that reasonable people might ask:

"Well I was just saying one of the things that this can cause is if there’s a pope you don’t like or if there’s a bishop you don’t like or whatever that may be, let that be an instance of purification to say, 'Had I banked all of my hopes on just the goodness of another human person, had I put my trust in princes the way the Psalms warned us not to, or is my trust really in Christ?'”

And then they go on to explore some of these instances. I hope you read it or listen to it all the way through, and that it's helpful to you in some small way.


 
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SeekerM

Member
The conservative Catholics in the US are not making a stink about politics. They are concerned with the ethics and moral teachings of the Church. For example, the CC has said that abortion is a mortal sin, one punishable by automatic excommunication. Yet Pope Francis cozies up to politicians whose policies keep abortion legal. Another big issue for them is homosexuality. Gay sex has always been a mortal sin, and same sex attraction has been labeled by previous papacies as intrinsically disordered. Yet Pope Francis makes remarks like "Who am I to judge?" Personally I'm highly sympathetic to Pope Francis' desire to focus on the ethics of compassion to the poor and our responsibility to our planet home. I'm just saying that the objections of Trad Caths is religious, not political.
Tell me, isn't law made through a political process? Catholic doctrine is for the guidance of Catholic consciences. Catholics are taught that abortion is a deeply moral choice, i.e., the Church has concluded it is per se immoral. However, making a law that other citizens of a pluralistic society must also come to the same moral conclusion is another matter. Usually the political process determines that the vast majority of citizens are in agreement to make laws with legitimacy. I'm interested to know what you think.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Tell me, isn't law made through a political process? Catholic doctrine is for the guidance of Catholic consciences. Catholics are taught that abortion is a deeply moral choice, i.e., the Church has concluded it is per se immoral. However, making a law that other citizens of a pluralistic society must also come to the same moral conclusion is another matter. Usually the political process determines that the vast majority of citizens are in agreement to make laws with legitimacy. I'm interested to know what you think.
You are trying to make their objections to the Pope changing catholic morality a political issue, and you are utterly failing.
 

SeekerM

Member
I am certainly not understanding what the Pope means when he says ideologies. All religious belief systems are a subcategory of ideology. Is he saying that Catholicism has no beliefs? Or is he using the word ideology in an idiosyncratic way?
Good question. In times past the word "ideology" was a pejorative, meaning a system of ideas that was closed in the sense of based on an absolute truth claim. In current usage it seems that the word refers, as you say, to any system of ideas, even those based on provisional truth claims. Humans conceptualize. Conceptualization is ideology. Some people use it as if as pejorative, a system of ideas they do not agree with. All mixed up. I don't know what the Pope means by it.
 
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