Tae Kwon Do and Christianity

[Fluffy]

Very good point. I'm sure I can talk to Grand Master Shin. I must make a committment to myself to do that...tomorrow...eek!

You hit the nail on the head...the point is I will no longer feel welcome at the school after my discussion with Master Ogburn.

Thanks luv!
Amy

Good luck, I'll cross my fingers for you. To be honest with you I think this guy is pulling a bit of a fast one. To involve religion in a class with contractually binded members to whom he gave no indication of such before signing the contract is a little bit weird if not downright proselytising.

Just remember that it is not your fault you are in this situation and you have every right to feel the way you do.

 

[Melody]

Ahunting,

In situations like this, I go all the way to the top if I have to. I would certainly take the time to explain to them that while it may not be good for the student teacher relationship to let someone out of their contract, it would also not be good to keep the relationship when the student feels extremely uncomfortable with the emphasis on Christianity.

If I signed up for a Tae Kwon Do class, I would absolutely not be expecting someone to constantly talk about Christianity....or for that matter any religion except from an historical perspective. While I obviously wouldn't have a problem with it, it's not fair to the unsuspecting student.

Perhaps take this tack with the head honcho and see if you can't make him understand how very uncomfortable you are and you would not have signed up if you had been told ahead of time.

This type of prosletyzing has the appearance of a bear trap and, my opinion only, a true Christian would have no problem letting someone out of a contract in such a situation.

 

[ahunting]

To be honest with you I think this guy is pulling a bit of a fast one. To involve religion in a class with contractually binded members to whom he gave no indication of such before signing the contract is a little bit weird if not downright proselytising.

Oh my goodness! You are so right! That is a wonderful point. It was not stated in our contract or in the book and website about the classes.

Thx
Amy

 

[Fat Old Sun]

Welcome to RF Amy.


I can't believe you are having this much trouble with this. It really is a shame. You are paying for instruction, not indoctrination. It's hard to say without seeing the contract if you have an easy way out. Hopefully Grand Master Shin will realize that even if they can legally hold you to the contract, it is a wise business decision to let you seek instruction elsewhere. Word of mouth is very effective, and bad even more so than good.

In the future, insist on sitting in on a class before signing anything. Ask how much emphasis they place on the physical, mental, and spiritual aspects of their classes. Some are very heavy on the spiritual aspect, like Aikido, while some, like Krav Maga, are flat out fighting. Most, including TKD, fall somewhere in between. Even with TKD, you can find schools that focus all of their energy on training for competition, while others take a more balanced approach.

 

[Scott1]

Fat Old Sun made a great point, Amy..... check out future schools and ask questions.... in the class that I teach, I make it very clear that I pray before and after class. No one is forced to participate, but I make it known so that those who would be uncomfortable don't sign up.
In the class that my daughter and I are students in, my Master explained that his class covered "all aspects" including spirituality.... he's a Catholic, but partakes in meditation as part of the schooling.

Scott

 

[ahunting]

Welcome to RF Amy.
In the future, insist on sitting in on a class before signing anything. Ask how much emphasis they place on the physical, mental, and spiritual aspects of their classes.

Thx for your thoughts. I could have taken a sample class except that Michael (her Dad) and I bought Bridgets membership first and it was a xmas present. I wasn't sure I would ever join myself, at least not for a while. She ended up not going until I joined as well a short time later. I chose that school because it was obvious upon entering that they took the art seriously. Not just a big room full of elementary school kids running around, ya know?

I wouldn't have a problem with the spiritual aspect being there if it was central or even connected with TKD.

Amy

 

[ahunting]

Oh grrrr...I just typed this whole thing and my puter lost it when I was done....lol

 

[Master Vigil]

I understand your fear of confronting your master. He's your master, not only is he a man who can seriously hurt you. Most importantly, he is a person you are taught to completely respect. And confronting a man whom you completely respect about something like this can be terrifying. But it needs to be done. I have never met the man, but already I have lost my respect for him. I believe he is a disgrace martial arts instructors and masters.

 

[ahunting]

I understand your fear of confronting your master. He's your master, not only is he a man who can seriously hurt you. Most importantly, he is a person you are taught to completely respect. And confronting a man whom you completely respect about something like this can be terrifying. But it needs to be done. I have never met the man, but already I have lost my respect for him. I believe he is a disgrace martial arts instructors and masters.

Thank you so much for getting it. I am very submissive (but that is a topic for another day) and although our relationship has been rather brief, I did respect him. I still do but only a fraction of what I did. I respect his skill but not his ethics. Yes, it does need to be done. I must quit dragging my feet about this and just do it.

amy

 

[Master Vigil]

May the spirits be with you during this endeavor. And I hope all goes well. And please, do not let this stifle your martial arts training. Find another school, the martial arts are too wonderful for them to be ruined by this man's disrespect for your concerns.

 

[ahunting]

May the spirits be with you during this endeavor. And I hope all goes well. And please, do not let this stifle your martial arts training. Find another school, the martial arts are too wonderful for them to be ruined by this man's disrespect for your concerns.

Thank you!

Amy

 

[tkdrocks]

I have been out of action for a few days and ran across this thread. I was wondering if you have been able to talk to the head of the organization, yet? If not, I believe this should be able to be solved in a rather civil manner (not in court).

I do not know what the tenents of your organization, but they probably contain Honor, Courtesy and Integrity. Concerning Honor, I would (once again) discuss this with the instructor in which you are having the problem. Show the proper respect and honor of his rank and status as school owner. I would be worried (personally) about being able to advance in rank due to a predjudice displayed by the instructor (whether he is willing to admit to it or not).

Obviously, it is considered dis-courteous to teach something besides what is being paid for. I would be equally distressed by an instructor that talked about Star Wars continuously in lieu of educationg me in martial arts. This would also have to do with integrity as a business.

I would also ask for permission to speak to the Grand Master about the situation. This may diffuse the whole situation alone if he fears correction from his mentor.

Good luck with everything.

 

[Runt]

I personally would jump right into the religious discussions and such that are making you uncomfortable... and bring a distinctly pagan point of view to them. If it makes you feel uncomfortable to have religion discussed in class, and others are unable to see that, perhaps turning the tables and talking about things that make THEM uncomfortable would allow them to see your point of view. If your Master mentions an upcoming event at his church, raise your hand (if you're allowed to--at my school we're not allowed to ask questions) and mention some pagan event that is coming up and invite people to check it out. Next time your Master invites you to visit his church on Easter, or Christmas, or any other holiday, say that you will visit his place of worship if he is willing to attend a pagan celebration of Ostara or Yule (or whatever you personally celebrate). If someone mentions God in class, bring up the Goddess; for example, if they say "God gave you arms, so use them!", respond with "Hail Brigid (or whatever one of your chosen Goddesses you believe in)!" Say blessed be as much as possible, drop the words ritual, witch, Halloween, and pentagram as much as possible (or other words that correspond specifically to the branch of paganism you follow), and see if people in your class are able to get your point! At worst, it will irritate your Master so much he may release you from your contract, and at best it could cause him to actually change his behavior (or at least make the remainder of your time on-contract more enjoyable for yourself and more educational for your classmates).

 

[tkdrocks]

Runt,

I too enjoy some good religious conversation even to the point of making someone uncomfortable. However, I would never want to disrespect any of the masters in my organization. That would represent over 20 years of martial arts experience and they can cause much pain.

 

[ahunting]

If someone mentions God in class, bring up the Goddess; for example, if they say "God gave you arms, so use them!", respond with "Hail Brigid (or whatever one of your chosen Goddesses you believe in)!" Say blessed be as much as possible, drop the words ritual, witch, Halloween, and pentagram as much as possible (or other words that correspond specifically to the branch of paganism you follow), and see if people in your class are able to get your point!

LOL...oh my God...errr Goddess! *Cracking up here* Ahem...anyway. I won't be going back to class, but if I did, this would be great. I'm so dang submissive, not sure I'd do it. I've had soooo much going on this past week, that I've not done a dang thing except work on the letter I plan to mail to the instructor with a copy to the Grand Master.
:biglaugh:
Thanks for a laugh and making some good points!

ahunting

 

[Master Vigil]

Good luck, and keep us posted on how everything goes!!

 

[Runt]

Runt,

I too enjoy some good religious conversation even to the point of making someone uncomfortable. However, I would never want to disrespect any of the masters in my organization. That would represent over 20 years of martial arts experience and they can cause much pain.

A Master who fails as an instructor as miserably as ahunting's Master has is not worthy of respect... and neither is a businessman who so blatantly disregards the concerns of his customers.

And I do not consider the fact that someone can cause pain to be a good enough reason to respect them. In my book, respect must be earned, and "respecting" someone because they can cause you pain sounds more like fear than respect to me. Masters earn my respect for their dedication, for their knowledge, and for their teaching abilities, but not simply for their ability to cause damage. Physical prowess, no matter how impressive, is only worthy of respect if accompanied by a positive depth of character.

 

[tkdrocks]

A Master who fails as an instructor as miserably as ahunting's Master has is not worthy of respect... and neither is a businessman who so blatantly disregards the concerns of his customers.

And I do not consider the fact that someone can cause pain to be a good enough reason to respect them. In my book, respect must be earned, and "respecting" someone because they can cause you pain sounds more like fear than respect to me. Masters earn my respect for their dedication, for their knowledge, and for their teaching abilities, but not simply for their ability to cause damage. Physical prowess, no matter how impressive, is only worthy of respect if accompanied by a positive depth of character.

Runt, I am not disagreeing with you concerning this instructor's conduct or his business practices. It is only the rank that deserves the respect. If Ahunting is going to continue to take classes from this instructor, then she is going to have to have respect for the teaching authority.

Concerning fear. Well, for one, I definitely fear and respect the masters in my organization. When I go to regional workout and spar a master, I am quivering in fear. This is usually because I just watched this master pulverize another upper rank as part of their training. Fortunately, masters tend to spar us mere 2nd degrees in a more tame fashion.

Another reason for fear, in this specific case, is that violence and religious differences seem to go hand-in-hand. To "show-up" a master in front of his other students (rather verbally or physically) can be a recipe for disaster. I do not want Ahunting to get injured due to some "Christian" Master getting offended or his religious bigotry. If this "Master" is without honor, I would not want to find out (from his feet and hands) what other character flaws he may have.

 

[ahunting]

The beginning of victory! Yes! I finally sent the letter to the GrandMaster and he called me tonight. He stated he never liked him expressing religion in his class. He also said he had received a letter from another woman as well complaining of the same issue. He is a Christian and thinks it is wrong. He doesn't know all the specifics of how the finance company works but he said he will call Master Ogburn tomorrow and tell him to fix the contract issue.

Yeah!

Thanks for all your advice. You all gave me the balls and info to get this far.

ahunting

 

[Master Vigil]

Wonderful news!!! Is the grandmaster going to stop his preaching, or just let you out of the contract? Personally, I would rather get out of the contract and go to another school. But I definitely would love to see him stop teaching as well. Either way, CONGRATS!!!!! Thanks for letting us know how it went. And of course, let us know how it ends as well.