Talking Snakes, Donkeys and Bushes

[sojourner]

Satan was the voice of the serpent just as the righteous angel was the voice of Balaam's a s s.

Satan is not in the world of that myth. You are wrong.

You fancy yourself a scholar and authority on biblical literature.

You are not, anymore than a boy who builds plastic, model ships is a bona fide sea captain.

 

[Earthling]

Satan is not in the world of that myth. You are wrong.

You fancy yourself a scholar and authority on biblical literature.

You are not, anymore than a boy who builds plastic, model ships is a bona fide sea captain.

There is not one shred of evidence that anyone other than Moses wrote the books of the Bible that he was attributed to for thousands of years. The only reason you think otherwise is because some quasi scholar can't accept the possibility that the Bible prophecies that were written long before they came true were written before those events actually took place so that so called scholar placed the writing at a date later than the prophecies. He then imagined that there were different styles and therefore different writers.

It's utter nonsense and anyone with any sense knows it. Not one shred of evidence. Literally none.

 

[Subduction Zone]

There is not one shred of evidence that anyone other than Moses wrote the books of the Bible that he was attributed to for thousands of years. The only reason you think otherwise is because some quasi scholar can't accept the possibility that the Bible prophecies that were written long before they came true were written before those events actually took place so that so called scholar placed the writing at a date later than the prophecies. He then imagined that there were different styles and therefore different writers.

It's utter nonsense and anyone with any sense knows it. Not one shred of evidence. Literally none.

Actually you are wrong, as usual. Varying writing styles is evidence that Moses did not write it. Besides that Moses is a fictional character. The Hebrews copied parts of his story from Babylonian myths. The Exodus as portrayed in the Bible never occurred. You keep telling others that they need to do some research and you can't seem to do any yourself. Meanwhile there is no evidence of Moses existence except for the Bible. Circular reasoning is all that you have. You really need to study up on the history of the Bible a bit.

 

[sojourner]

There is not one shred of evidence that anyone other than Moses wrote the books of the Bible that he was attributed to for thousands of years. The only reason you think otherwise is because some quasi scholar can't accept the possibility that the Bible prophecies that were written long before they came true were written before those events actually took place so that so called scholar placed the writing at a date later than the prophecies. He then imagined that there were different styles and therefore different writers.

It's utter nonsense and anyone with any sense knows it. Not one shred of evidence. Literally none.

So much for what you know. Check out Old Testament Parallels by Victor Matthews and Don Benjamin. And that’s a survey work. There is evidence that the creation myths came from earlier, Sumerian myths, told for centuries before they were written.

As for evidence, there is 0 evidence that Moses either 1) really existed, or that 2) he was literate and was able to write, if he did exist.

The scholarly consensus is firmly against you here. You can’t even tell the literary difference between a myth and a prophecy. The creation myth isn’t a prophecy.
The difference in styles is no imaginary thing. There are textual clues (if you’d take the time to read the text, instead of wasting time on Watchtower) that spawned the four-source theory. This isn’t just some single, “quasi scholar.” These are a whole lotta people who are peer reviewed and considered top of the field.

They’ve built and sailed real ships. Apparently, you’ve been too busy sniffing the glue to slap together a plastic model. You don’t even know what “bilge” is, so stop strutting around as if you’re an expert in the field, calling yourself “Captain.”

 

[Jumi]

My view of science shouldn't be taken too seriously most of the time. If the newest scientific fad is to avoid glutton I'm not going to squeal in shock and run to my pantry to rid myself of the nefarious concoction. If science comes out tomorrow and says that the universe is an illusion and it was created last weekend at a party in Shaftesbury, England, I'm not going to pay it much attention. But I don't care what scientists want to get up to.

To me that sounds like you are confusing what newspaper headlines are saying about science with science. So your criticism is of a sidetrack of marketing newspapers in a capitalist society.

I'm not sure what you mean by literalist. Someone who takes the Bible seriously? There are portions of the Bible that are literal, other portions that are figurative, symbolic, poetic and allegorical. The Bible isn't meant to be taken strictly literal.

No. People can take their scriptures seriously and not be literalist. In fact I believe it's hard to be a literalist if one takes things seriously, because all kinds of background information make literalism an impossibility.

And it's also used as a crutch by atheists who want to sneer at believers for believing in God. I don't care that science disagrees with the Bible or that science minded atheists don't believe in God. Atheists don't believe in God anyway, but science is used, perhaps misused and abused, to the effect of saying "You're not very intelligent if you believe in God. You're not very intelligent if you don't believe in science." That kind of attitude is going to be made fun of. It needs to be made fun of. To science minded atheists, usually ignorant of the Bible, who think that way . . . **** off. You deserve to be mocked and scorned because science doesn't know everything, science isn't special, science is often wrong, science is subject to the same corruption as everything else, including theology and religion, and you are an idiot if you don't like to be told that. Even if you claim to accept it while pointing out ad nauseam the way science works.

I find such conflicts often arise from atheists wanting to portray theists as being literal readers of genesis and theists who actually know nothing of science. I believe theists who are literalists are shooting their own foot all the time and giving ammunition to the antitheists (who you call atheists). You see Christianity and theism has taken a huge dive in popularity during my lifetime in my country and it's because of literalist teaching coming here from English-speaking world.

Well, they have the right to do that, if they did. I've never heard of it. I don't think science should be bothered and I actually think that science minded atheists put science in an awkward position that it shouldn't be put in. You know, they should leave people who don't believe or care that much about science alone. Or risk having the same done to them.

I think there are some confused anti-theists who think that science extends further than it does or believe theists are all irrational. If they "spoil the soup" for atheists in your mind, imagine how anti-evolution creationists "spoil the soup" for us theists who aren't.

 

[stvdv]

the serpent in the garden of Eden who deceived Eve was talking

In India "serpent" stands for kundalini. Makes sense in this context. Desire against your conscience blocks kundalini. Chakras close. Divine connection finito.

 

[sojourner]

In India "serpent" stands for kundalini. Makes sense in this context. Desire against conscience blocks kundalini. Chakras close. Divine connection finito.

In Shamanism, Serpent represents the first center of exchange (first two chakras) — letting go of past woundedness that no longer serves one. IOW, Wisdom.

 

[Earthling]

The text says “God.” Not “Jesus” — God.

The serpent tempted Eve. Serpent. Because that’s what the text says. Again ( for the hard-of-reading): it’s an allegorical story. The serpent represents Wisdom. Because it’s lifted from an earlier, Sumerian myth, wherein the serpent represents ... Wisdom.

I don't recall saying anything about Jesus. Wisdom, have you read Ezekiel 28:12-13? The Biblical Satan 'wasn't' lifted from anywhere, but tell me why you keep saying it was without actually giving any reason for it or examples.

 

[Earthling]

To me that sounds like you are confusing what newspaper headlines are saying about science with science. So your criticism is of a sidetrack of marketing newspapers in a capitalist society.

I don't read newspapers or watch television.

No. People can take their scriptures seriously and not be literalist. In fact I believe it's hard to be a literalist if one takes things seriously, because all kinds of background information make literalism an impossibility.

Well, I don't know what a literalist is, but I take the literal parts of the Bible to be literal, the figurative parts to be figurative and so on.

I find such conflicts often arise from atheists wanting to portray theists as being literal readers of genesis and theists who actually know nothing of science. I believe theists who are literalists are shooting their own foot all the time and giving ammunition to the antitheists (who you call atheists). You see Christianity and theism has taken a huge dive in popularity during my lifetime in my country and it's because of literalist teaching coming here from English-speaking world.

The Bible itself foretold that the love of the greater number would cool off, and that people would turn away from the true teachings to embrace myth and legend. If the Bible believers have integrity they aren't going to water down the true teachings for massive appeal.

I think there are some confused anti-theists who think that science extends further than it does or believe theists are all irrational. If they "spoil the soup" for atheists in your mind, imagine how anti-evolution creationists "spoil the soup" for us theists who aren't.

I don't give a **** about any of them. I wouldn't argue for or against any of them. I certainly wouldn't argue that theists aren't irrational. The only thing that was ever important to me is truth. This person or that person may get a response out of me but I don't really care about public relations in the manner in which you are sort of hinting at. Political Correctness, Public Relations, these are just synonyms of the word bull**** to me.

 

[sojourner]

I don't recall saying anything about Jesus. Wisdom, have you read Ezekiel 28:12-13? The Biblical Satan 'wasn't' lifted from anywhere, but tell me why you keep saying it was without actually giving any reason for it or examples.

Who is called the word of God? Jesus

Post #45

I don’t read in Ez. 28 that Satan was in the garden. The name or title does not appear. Eisegesis is a horrible disorder.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don't read newspapers or watch television.

Then it sounds like you are making up your errors out of whole cloth.

Well, I don't know what a literalist is, but I take the literal parts of the Bible to be literal, the figurative parts to be figurative and so on.

What? Then you are in effect stating that the Bible is wrong since you take parts literally that we know did not happen.

The Bible itself foretold that the love of the greater number would cool off, and that people would turn away from the true teachings to embrace myth and legend. If the Bible believers have integrity they aren't going to water down the true teachings for massive appeal.

But that has not happened. People have done the opposite. Once again you claim that the Bible is wrong.

I don't give a **** about any of them. I wouldn't argue for or against any of them. I certainly wouldn't argue that theists aren't irrational. The only thing that was ever important to me is truth. This person or that person may get a response out of me but I don't really care about public relations in the manner in which you are sort of hinting at. Political Correctness, Public Relations, these are just synonyms of the word bull**** to me.

That is only because they can so easily demonstrate that you are wrong. Running away is not a winning debating technique and that has become a rather obvious one of yours.

 

[Shad]

Kind of reminds me of Aesop's Fables, except for the burning bush. I've seen a burning bush myself but can't really say it was doing any talking.

View attachment 23149

If it did I would expect "AHHHHH HELP!"

 

[Jumi]

I don't read newspapers or watch television.

Well the way you used the word science has echoes of that.

I don't give a **** about any of them. I wouldn't argue for or against any of them. I certainly wouldn't argue that theists aren't irrational. The only thing that was ever important to me is truth. This person or that person may get a response out of me but I don't really care about public relations in the manner in which you are sort of hinting at. Political Correctness, Public Relations, these are just synonyms of the word bull**** to me.

I'm not hinting at political correctness, if that's what you thought. The reason why theism is "losing people" is people holding the "banner of theism" in opposition to truths and alternatives to facts. You curse atheists at every opportunity, but you're giving them ammunition at the same time.

I agree with you that religion for the most part is not worth preserving. But we disagree as to why. I believe without experience of God you only get the value you can make up and hope something comes out of it.

 

[stvdv]

In Shamanism, Serpent represents the first center of exchange (first two chakras) — letting go of past woundedness that no longer serves one. IOW, Wisdom.

Shamanism, Hinduism and Christianity seem to have a major thing in common. I love that.

My Master told me to do some intense shamanistic rituals. I really was scared to go into that [these were really intense], but as I once surrendered to my Master saying "I will do whatever you tell me to do He hold me to that promise". God was really good on me though. The first ritual I got sick like all others, but after that I kept strict diet rules and was blessed with only wonderful spiritual experiences [except 3 times I went through very intense emotional cleansing]. I even started complaining to God "You only give me Bliss, please there must be some problems in me to work on, others are sick all the time, and you give me only Bliss".

Shamanism is wonderful, magical and really did work on "letting go past woundedness". So that was a wonderful lesson to trust my Master. And also great to see that there is not just one way to go. This experience helps me to "go with the flow and let go of control"

 

[Kenny]

Now, everyone who has read the Genesis account knows that the text, if taken literally at face value, would read that the serpent in the garden of Eden who deceived Eve was talking. But, at the same time we all know that not to be the case. Atheists seem to have a difficult time with distinguishing the difference between the literal and the figurative. I personally think this is a mock stupidity in order to make a point, for example, saying that the Bible has talking snakes when it is abundantly clear, even to a simple child, that it was Satan, not the literal serpent, that was speaking to Eve. The account is given in her perspective so the snake seems to be talking.

The same principle applies to Balaam's a s s and the burning bush. Numbers 22:28 / 2 Peter 2:16 / Exodus 3:2-5

In all of these cases it is't the snake, or the a s s or the bush that are speaking.

https://www.livescience.com/1328-secret-language-whales-revealed.html

As if people believe that humanity has reached the place that they know everything... maybe animals do have a language.

 

[sojourner]

Why shouldn't we take the Creation at face value?

Because the accounts are allegorical, not literal science/history.

It's a hugely accurate account of the stages of creation

No. It isn’t. Women are not made from ribs, and the earth is not a disc. Nor is the sky a rigid dome.

 

[sojourner]

https://www.livescience.com/1328-secret-language-whales-revealed.html

As if people believe that humanity has reached the place that they know everything... maybe animals do have a language.

Many of them do. Whales, for example.

 

[Kenny]

Many of them do. Whales, for example.

I think that is what I said.

 

[sojourner]

I think that is what I said.

Yes you did!

 

[Earthling]

Because the accounts are allegorical, not literal science/history.


No. It isn’t. Women are not made from ribs, and the earth is not a disc. Nor is the sky a rigid dome.

Well, you have to keep in mind too, there's a difference between an allegorical interpretation and one that's just wrong. For example, the rigid dome interpretation comes from illustrations in Bible dictionaries and encyclopedias from the dark ages when they actually thought that there was a rigid dome in the sky with sluice holes to let the rain in. A rib was literally taken from Adam to make Eve, and there's nothing about a disc.

So most everything you say in every post is completely wrong. You are consistently wrong.