Tao is amoral

[Master Vigil]

It is true that the Tao is the sum of all that is and is not. But we forget that the Tao is not JUST the sum. It is each individual part as well. In that sense, the illusory understanding that "I" am important IS Tao. Just as much as the amoral laws of physics that treat all things as straw dogs. Just as the sage is not sentimental, the normal ones are very sentimental. It is dangerous to see something as moral and say it is wrong. And to see something as amoral and say it is right. This is in itself a misunderstanding. As Lao Tzu says... when one sees beauty as beauty, this is in itself ugliness.

Let the sentimental ones be sentimental. That is Tao. Let the amoral ones be amoral. That is Tao. As for Tao... it follows it's own ways.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Hi Master Vigil,

Yes, am in general agreement what you expressed.

The Tao that is expressed is dynamic and in a state of flux whereas the eternal Tao is transcendent and always at peace though of course they are truly not two but ONE.

From the Eternal Tao comes the one (Expression of Tao), from the one the two (Ying and Yang) from the two the three, from the three the ten thousand (infinite) things.

Now just as Taoism warns about the problems that arise when dualistic opposite preferences :yinyang: disturbs the mind,...

The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences.
When love and hate are both absent everything becomes clear and
undisguised.
Make the smallest distinction, however, and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.
If you wish to see the truth then hold no opinions for or against anything.
To set up what you like against what you dislike is the disease of the mind.

Chien-chih Seng-ts'an

...then so does Genesis (using metaphorical language) warn of the problems that arise from eating the dualistic fruit :yinyang: of the tree of knowledge of good and evil,

 

[Raymond Sigrist]

Great post!

Well, that which conditions can be summarised as being nature. Nature conditions. We know that nature can be impartial towards humans, so it should be no suprise that nature conditions. This goes back to your post on amoral... we are creatures driven by the desire to recreate and gain more.

Is the Tao separate to Nature? No, not in my experience. It is the same, but it still the TAo remains amoral and the Tao is still more than nature. The Tao cannot be described, it cannot be limited. This is why to give it a name is a mistake, as soon as I say "Tao is nature" then I am a victim to my own ignorance. So I drop even that thought.

In the namless Tao both free will and determination exist, because it is both spontaneous yet free from itself. If I believe I have free will then I will, if I believe not then I do not, the tao still flows. The Tao still has its way. Experience will teach us that.

"we are creatures driven by the desire to recreate and gain more."

Yes, and we can get more for ourselves by overcoming our narrow view of what is good for us.

Laozi: "Why do I put my agenda aside? Precisly to get what I want."

Laozi: "I give away from my store and I only gain more."

 

[ellenjanuary]

Well, just as the tao is not the tao; the tao is not amoral. If the wordless conceptions of these understandings should approach congruence, it is not to say any label need apply.

It's easier to understand once one realizes that morality is crap. Think not of the greater good, but rather the greater whole.

 

[zenzero]

Friend ben,

BTW, the amorality of THAT which is absolute is also reflected in the Abrahamic religion.

Isaiah 45.7
Quote:
I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create evil. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.
__________________

Personal understanding is that TAO / BRAHMAN / YAHWEH / WHOLE / etc. are all the same; however it is the manner of transmitting this is where understanding too changes.

Your quote from Isaiah 45.7 states *I* as Yahweh which is like some god speaking and this makes it personal and a mind reading/understanding it is bound to give rise to the *ego* where as an impersonal Tao having some ways is just an understanding of that eternal law appears/understood as purely impersonal.

Love & rgds

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yes friend zenzero, agreed.

However the Bible often uses this anthropomorphic metaphorical style narrative throughout, as in God being the 'I AM' presence. Still for those with 'eyes to see', it is understood that our personal temporary *I am* presence is a 'reflection of the absolute *I AM WHAT I AM*, which in turn is a concept that represents GOD which in turn represents THAT which is beyond all representation. :

 

[zenzero]

Friend ben,

Yes, have agreed there is no difference in conception from the no-mind point of view, am just trying to point towards the majority who perceives through the mind and the result of such perception across the globe today meaning less number of people having being enlightened following Abrahamic concepts than dharmic.
Rest in full agreement with your statement.

Love & rgds

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Friend zenzero,

Yes it is so and since the world is in Kali Yuga, one supposes all is as could be expected, mostly asleep to the source of the light that casts the shadows which are then taken for reality.

In deed we live in dark times, and one doesn't need to be enlightened or even half awake to be aware of it. But despite this, all is unfolding as it should as the the immoral and ignorant wax predominant and are oblivious to the looming 'harvest'.

 

[zenzero]

Friend ben,

Yes, the mind was back to leave its footprint.
Its a constant swinging of the pendulum between mind and no-mind between consciousness and unconsciousness. To remain in the centre watchful of both is being HERE-NOW!

Yes there is no doubt that those who are awake are awake those who sleep may awaken when there time comes as you have stated the season of harvest. They are all in different stages of growth or rather in this play they too are playing the vital roles to fill in the gaps to provide the background the gestalt.
Finally there is neither they or we its all from nothingness to nothingness a never ending story from eternity to eternity.

Love & rgds

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yes ellenjanuary, agree with your observation that just as the Tao that is spoken of is not the Eternal Tao, then labels such as amoral or moral are irrelevant.

The Great Way is not difficult
for those who have no preferences.
When love and hate are both absent
everything becomes clear and undisguised.
Make the smallest distinction, however,
and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.
If you wish to see the truth
then hold no opinions for or against anything.
To set up what you like against what you dislike
is the disease of the mind. - Chien-chih Seng-ts'an

 

[Runewolf1973]

If all there is is energy, then "consciousness" and "thought", including "morals" and "perception" is all part of that energy just the same is it not? It is the action/reaction, cause and effect part of energy. Someone skewers out our eyeball (cause/action), we give out a yell, feel pain and emotion (reaction/effect). "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". We are that small part of Tao that demonstrates a peculiar action/reaction effect in the form of morals and thought/consciousness. To exclude morals or anything else from the Tao is to deny part of the Tao. If Tao is in effect everything, how can anyting be excluded from that and still be called "everything"?

 

[ellenjanuary]

Well, all there is; is information. Update! But the tao need not be expressed in moral terms for there are things outside morality. Essentially, there is nothing "outside the tao," for if there were; there would be nothing outside the tao. It is not a problem of taoism so much as being a creature of baryonic matter. If I were composed of matter called dark, would I need to relabel the tao? I think not. A bridge is a bridge for there are things that need be bridged, but if we could understand, there would be nothing to express. That if the world were flat, never would the bridge become "separate, yet of the tao."

Actually, there seems only to be a problem when one tries to preach something...

 

[Flow]

To add to what I said in the beginning of the Thread: Chuang Tzu has further added to this line of thinking, or the lack of, "Judgements of right and wrong are what I am calling feelings. What I call having no feelings is when people to not harm themselves inwardly by likes and dislikes, but always go by what is natural and do not try to add to life".

 

[zenzero]

Friend Flow,

What is the Doer? This is difficult to explain according to Taoism. No matter what you do, the Tao will always get what it wants done. Imagine yourself as a dirt particle in a river. The dust particle can only go the direction of the river. Now lets say that the dust particle can desire. This means that the dust particle will begin to resist the natural flow of the river. The dust particle will now either be destroyed, because of erosion (from over-resistance), or it will become tired and surrender to the flow of the river and become peaceful again. So is there a doer? Yes, and no. We can choose to go with the Tao, or we can choose to go agaisnt it. In that process we dont effect the Tao. What the Tao needs to get done will always get done. I know this is a vague and abstract answer, but thats the best I can say. You should probably, if you really want to know, experiance it yourself.

Just to add that Taoism is all about awareness one can go against the flow but jut with awareness. Have you enjoyed standing against the current of a river or waterfall? Yes, that too can be a flowing experience.

Love & rgds

 

[Flow]

Friend Flow,



Just to add that Taoism is all about awareness one can go against the flow but jut with awareness. Have you enjoyed standing against the current of a river or waterfall? Yes, that too can be a flowing experience.

Love & rgds

Thank you for this Zenzero.

 

[angrymoose]

How does one stop oneself from slipping into a nihilistic mind set and considering all of this macro+microcosm to be worth nothing, in your opinion?

Well, the laws of physics are "amoral" and yet you can be a moral individual who employs them.

Nihism seems to discard the advantages of being civilized and having rules. Humans are social beings. Co-operation is our strength.