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Taxing religion.

PennyKay

Physicist
As we all know, many religions exert huge power over the majority of countries in the world. They like to have their say on homosexuality and gay marriage legislations, abortion laws, what should and shouldn’t be taught in school (to mention just a few examples), but why do we allow them to actually have a say that counts, when they on the most part, they don’t contribute anything of monetary value to our countries.

I used to work at an accountancy firm and became all too aware of the tax exemptions religions institutions were able to take advantage of, on the grounds that they were a religious institution.

Surely though, if they are so interested in politics and policies, they should have to pay the same admission fees as every body else. Tax them.

I tell you what, taxing the Catholic churches real estate alone would most likely wipe out this countries debt in one foul swoop! It would do a hell of a lot better than a thousand hands clasped in prayer!

I don’t believe in giving religious organisations money, they certainly have enough already. I can truthfully say that I have never actually witnessed a religious organisation giving anyone else any money. Have you? They claim to help the poor, whilst sitting in their pompous cathedrals, temples and shrines, whilst the poor and impoverished remain so. If they really cared about helping the less fortunate, wouldn’t they voluntarily sell land they own? Sell buildings they own? Wouldn’t the Vatican open up its archives for all to benefit from?

There are religious charities, but again, from my time at an accountancy firm, most religious charities (unfortunately, most charities in general) have a trading subsidiary attached to it for tax purposes, (i.e. have any assets that aren’t covered by annual exemptions classed under the trading subsidiary, and then pass the profits back up to the charity, mainly to pay staff)! It’s also good to point out at this juncture some of the salaries the Chief Executives take from from charity, (e.g. British and Foreign Bible Society £56,004, Christian Aid £51,406, Christian Vision £45,000, Church Mission Society £35,024...). If they’re going to take your hard earned money to pay themselves, I would like to take advantage of employers benefits please J

Sure, there are individual religious folk who do what little they can to help the less fortunate, but what I’m talking about here is the actual institutions themselves as a whole doing something for the greater good, even though it might mean them loosing some of their own wealth. So as per examples mentioned above, selling land to feed the poor, selling some of their buildings to fund education in third world countries, opening up archives for scholars to marvel at, paying tax to wipe out national debt...why do they not do any of this? If you do know of nay examples, please let me know.

What are your views on this?

Do you agree that religion should be taxed on some level (i.e. on land, income etc...)?
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
Do you agree that religion should be taxed on some level (i.e. on land, income etc...)?

Short answer: No.

Slightly longer answer: religious establishments do a lot of good for society, including food banks, homeless shelters, and being places people can volunteer. They also enable people to meet others, learn new skills, and to grow spiritually.

Taxing them will take away from the people who need them most. They won't be able to run soup kitchens or homeless shelters if they can't afford to heat or provide electricity.

There's a myth that churches are rich. Fact is, they rarely are save some larger churches. I know, I've seen the accounts for several local churches.

Only someone who has never been at the bottom, has never struggled, is ignorant of all the help that they provide, doesn't care, has blind hatred for the religious and is willing to harm anyone to get at them, or is downright cruel could support such a measure after knowing.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
No, my logic says, if they want a say on politics and policies, they should give something back to the country that benefits everybody.
That's not logic; that's petty and bitter opinion.

Perhaps it would be better to have a tax on baseless hatred. Just how much do you think you should have to pay? Or should we dispense with the tax in this case because your venom is not particularly effective?
 

PennyKay

Physicist
Short answer: No.

Slightly longer answer: religious establishments do a lot of good for society, including food banks, homeless shelters, and being places people can volunteer. They also enable people to meet others, learn new skills, and to grow spiritually.

Taxing them will take away from the people who need them most. They won't be able to run soup kitchens or homeless shelters if they can't afford to heat or provide electricity.

There's a myth that churches are rich. Fact is, they rarely are save some larger churches. I know, I've seen the accounts for several local churches.

Only someone who has never been at the bottom, has never struggled, is ignorant of all the help that they provide, doesn't care, has blind hatred for the religious and is willing to harm anyone to get at them, or is downright cruel could support such a measure after knowing.

Taxing them will not take the shelters, food banks, soup kitchen away. They receive millions (billions in some cases) in donations, and taking tax from them will not effect the soup kitchens etc...in fact taxing them may even take away the need for soup kitchen etc...

I have been at the bottom, born at the bottom and worked my way up. I dislike the concept of religion in part because even when I was in, pardon the pun, hell, I have never received any help from any religion, only shunned because I dare to have an opinion.

I care, I have travelled to impoverished countries in Africa and helped to set up schools, built water wells with my own two hands, all without religion. People do not need religion to do good in the world. I would harm no one, yet wars are fought in the name of God, people hanged, people persecuted if they don't believe in the same God someone else believes in, so I don't think you have any right to class me as someone who would hurt someone else just to 'get at them'. Religion does NOT have the monopoly on morality.

It's also good to point out that not all shelters, soup kitchens etc are religious ventures. They would all still exist without religion.

Taxing religious organisations does NOT mean ‘take all their money away’, it simply means treat them as any other company. If they want more money, they have to work harder.

If some churches are richer than others, surely you need to question how your church hands out it’s money. Doesn’t sound too fair to me...
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
It isn't right comparing a big, rich Church (which are very much in the minority) to a small one that barely gets by. Preachers don't get paid enough to live on and most of the Pastors I've known work at other jobs as well as preaching. On top of that, they are a non-profit organization and the Churches I've attended do a lot of benevolent work- such as homeless shelters, food banks, missionary work, etc.
On top of all that, the money any Church would have is donated by it's members.
We don't need to tax religions.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
...religious establishments do a lot of good for society, including food banks, homeless shelters, and being places people can volunteer. They also enable people to meet others, learn new skills, and to grow spiritually.

Taxing them will take away from the people who need them most. They won't be able to run soup kitchens or homeless shelters if they can't afford to heat or provide electricity.

There's a myth that churches are rich. Fact is, they rarely are save some larger churches. I know, I've seen the accounts for several local churches.

Only someone who has never been at the bottom, has never struggled, is ignorant of all the help that they provide, doesn't care, has blind hatred for the religious and is willing to harm anyone to get at them, or is downright cruel could support such a measure after knowing.
None of this holds water for an argument that churches should be exempt from property taxes.
- Businesses do a lot of good for society, but we pay even higher property taxes than homeowners. And we also pay personal property taxes on chairs, computers, dinnerware, desks, etc.
- Not all businesses are rich. Some of us are barely surviving, yet we pay taxes.
- I've no blind hatred for religion....not even 20x20 hatred for it. But I shouldn't have to pay higher taxes to subsidize them.
- There are many churches in my area, & not one has ever opened a soup kitchen.
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
Taxing them will not take the shelters, food banks, soup kitchen away. [...] and taking tax from them will not effect the soup kitchens etc...in fact taxing them may even take away the need for soup kitchen etc...
Yeah, maybe in a magic fairy land where the world is all sunshine and rainbows.

None of this holds water for an argument that churches should be exempt from property taxes.
- Businesses [...]
Let me just stop you right there.

Contrary to popular myths, churches are not businesses. Churches are non-profit organizations. They do not seek only to make money but to provide a specific service.

- There are many churches in my area, & not one has ever opened a soup kitchen.
There's something wrong with where you live. Every church I have visited has one.

Have you ever asked? You may be surprised.


It isn't right comparing a big, rich Church (which are very much in the minority) to a small one that barely gets by. Preachers don't get paid enough to live on and most of the Pastors I've known work at other jobs as well as preaching. On top of that, they are a non-profit organization and the Churches I've attended do a lot of benevolent work- such as homeless shelters, food banks, missionary work, etc.
On top of all that, the money any Church would have is donated by it's members.
We don't need to tax religions.
Finally, some sense. :)
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Contrary to popular myths, churches are not businesses. Churches are non-profit organizations. They do not seek only to make money but to provide a specific service.
Some are businesses, but this is beside the point. They consume services, yet they expect the rest of us to pay property taxes to support them. I object to this. If people want to get together, buy a building, & operate it for some noble purpose, this is fine with me. Just don't make me pay for it's operation with tax subsidies.

There's something wrong with where you live. Every church I have visited has one.
Have you ever asked? You may be surprised.
Even if they had, I don't want to pay higher taxes to subsidize them.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Short answer: No.

Slightly longer answer: religious establishments do a lot of good for society, including food banks, homeless shelters, and being places people can volunteer. They also enable people to meet others, learn new skills, and to grow spiritually.

Taxing them will take away from the people who need them most. They won't be able to run soup kitchens or homeless shelters if they can't afford to heat or provide electricity.

There's a myth that churches are rich. Fact is, they rarely are save some larger churches. I know, I've seen the accounts for several local churches.

Only someone who has never been at the bottom, has never struggled, is ignorant of all the help that they provide, doesn't care, has blind hatred for the religious and is willing to harm anyone to get at them, or is downright cruel could support such a measure after knowing.
I think the best course of action would be to treat churches like any other organization:

- if it does enough charitable work to meet the criteria that secular charities have to meet, then treat it as a charity.
- if it functions as a social club for the benefit of its members but doesn't generate profit, then treat it accordingly (edit: here in Ontario, that would mean it doesn't pay income tax, but donations to it aren't tax-deductible. YMMV).
- if it operates as a business, tax it as a business.

And get rid of clergy housing allowances and legal exemptions for churches (e.g. the exemption from safety rules for church-run daycares in some states).
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
No, my logic says, if they want a say on politics and policies, they should give something back to the country that benefits everybody. You shouldn't get something for nothing.
But that's the point: they don't get a say. Any religious institution that makes public statements about policy, or tells its adherents how to vote has its 501c3 status yanked and are taxed on their income, like any other business.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Taxing them will not take the shelters, food banks, soup kitchen away. They receive millions (billions in some cases) in donations, and taking tax from them will not effect the soup kitchens etc...in fact taxing them may even take away the need for soup kitchen etc...

I have been at the bottom, born at the bottom and worked my way up. I dislike the concept of religion in part because even when I was in, pardon the pun, hell, I have never received any help from any religion, only shunned because I dare to have an opinion.

I care, I have travelled to impoverished countries in Africa and helped to set up schools, built water wells with my own two hands, all without religion. People do not need religion to do good in the world. I would harm no one, yet wars are fought in the name of God, people hanged, people persecuted if they don't believe in the same God someone else believes in, so I don't think you have any right to class me as someone who would hurt someone else just to 'get at them'. Religion does NOT have the monopoly on morality.

It's also good to point out that not all shelters, soup kitchens etc are religious ventures. They would all still exist without religion.

Taxing religious organisations does NOT mean ‘take all their money away’, it simply means treat them as any other company. If they want more money, they have to work harder.

If some churches are richer than others, surely you need to question how your church hands out it’s money. Doesn’t sound too fair to me...
Taxing churches violates the separation between church and state, because it means that the church is supporting the government, thereby becoming part of the government.
 
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