Teacher: Christian faith prohibits treating transgendered students with respect and dignity

[Prestor John]

what you feel a man or a woman is, nature does not care.

That is basically what I am trying to say.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You are talking about the massacre of immigrants perpetuated by members of the LDS Church and Paiute natives despite the President of the Church and Governor of Utah, Brigham Young, ordering that the immigrants be left alone?

That is the origin of this "tradition of harm" you claim continues to exist to this day?

The LDS Church as a whole is blamed for what a few members do, even if what they do directly contradicts the teachings of the Church and its leaders?

The problem is that it does not appear to have gone against the teaching of the leaders, rather they were following Brigham Young in this. Now there is no direct evidence that Young was behind, this but it seems to be the consensus of historians. The paranoia and offensive actions of the Mormons was not unreasonable considering their history, but that does not make them innocent:

Mountain Meadows Massacre - Wikipedia



Unless you have a more reliable source, i.e. not Mormon apologetics.

 

[Curious George]

That is basically what I am trying to say.

No you are not. You have your own definition tagged to the end and you are inserting your own definition as nature's. I doubt you are going to find a dictionary in nature.

People categorize and define terms. You obviously want the teacher to be able to define these terms as he will and then use those terms as he has defined in defiance of the school board, the administration, the parents and the students.

While I do not object to this behavior, I simply note that such behavior can and should have consequences.

This teachers consequence is that they must now find another job. Hardly unfitting as the teacher demonstrated his lack fitness.

 

[sooda]

.

"High school teacher in Virginia fired for refusing to call transgender student male pronouns

A few days ago, the West Point Public School Board in Virginia voted unanimously to fire Peter Vlaming, a French teacher who had taught for seven years, because he refused to call a transgender freshman with the pronouns “he” and “him.” Vlaming said his Christian faith prohibited him from treat the student with respect and dignity.

View attachment 25939 ​

Peter Vlaming, who taught French class at West Point High School for nearly seven years, lost his job after a five-hour long public hearing he requested Thursday night.

The original complaint stemmed from a rising-9th-grade student who had transitioned and requested to be called by the male pronouns "he" and "him."

Principal Jonathan Hochman told the School Board that Vlaming refused to use the male pronouns to refer to the student because he considered it a "lie."
source​

Your thoughts on the statement that his "Christian faith prohibited him from treat[ing] the student with respect and dignity."

(A note on the thread's title. It is not a quote from the teacher.)​

.

How awful.. and how unchristian.

 

[Prestor John]

The problem is that it does not appear to have gone against the teaching of the leaders, rather they were following Brigham Young in this. Now there is no direct evidence that Young was behind, this but it seems to be the consensus of historians. The paranoia and offensive actions of the Mormons was not unreasonable considering their history, but that does not make them innocent:

Mountain Meadows Massacre - Wikipedia



Unless you have a more reliable source, i.e. not Mormon apologetics.

Right, because Mormons cannot be scholars, scientists, historians or objective at all, right?

I now quote from the very link that you provided,

"In the afternoon of Sunday, September 6, Haight held his weekly Stake High Council meeting after church services, and brought up the issue of what to do with the emigrants. The plan for a Native American massacre was discussed, but not all the Council members agreed it was the right approach. The Council resolved to take no action until Haight sent a rider, James Haslam, out the next day to carry an express to Salt Lake City (a six-day round trip on horseback) for Brigham Young's advice, as Utah did not yet have a telegraph system."

"But, on September 7, the party was attacked by Mormon militiamen dressed as Native Americans and some Native American Paiutes."

"The attack continued for five days, during which the besieged families had little or no access to fresh water or game food and their ammunition was depleted. Meanwhile, organization among the local Mormon leadership reportedly broke down."

"Leonard J. Arrington, founder of the Mormon History Association, reports that Brigham Young received the rider, James Haslam, at his office on the same day. When he learned what was contemplated by the militia leaders in Parowan and Cedar City, he sent back a letter stating the Baker–Fancher party were not to be meddled with, and should be allowed to go in peace (although he acknowledged the Native Americans would likely "do as they pleased"). Young's letter arrived two days too late, on September 13, 1857."

This horrendous action was not ordered/endorsed/encouraged/authorized by the President of the Church. The exact opposite is true.

 

[Prestor John]

No you are not. You have your own definition tagged to the end and you are inserting your own definition as nature's. I doubt you are going to find a dictionary in nature.

Yet you earlier claimed that I shared no such definition...

I have always maintained that biology determines sex.

People categorize and define terms. You obviously want the teacher to be able to define these terms as he will and then use those terms as he has defined in defiance of the school board, the administration, the parents and the students.

I have claimed no such thing.

The only thing this teacher refused to do was refer to the student using a masculine pronoun.

In accordance with the school's policy, he refrained from using any pronouns when referring to this student.

Yes, there was the one "slip up" that caused this whole thing when he did refer to this student with a feminine pronoun, but he declared that to be an accident, a "slip of the tongue" and he apologized for it.

Compelling this teacher to refer to this student with a masculine pronoun is wrong.

My stance on this issue is similar to a school thinking they can compel a teacher to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. They can't.

In Russo v. Central School District No. 1 (1972), a teacher was dismissed from employment after refusing to salute the flag and recite the Pledge of Allegiance in opposition to the school's policy.

The Court ruled in favor of the teacher and concluded in summary,

"To compel a person to speak what is not in his mind offends the very principles of tolerance and understanding which for so long have been the foundation of our great land."

Mrs. Susan Russo, Appellant, v. Central School District No. 1, Towns of Rush, et al., Countyof Monroe, State of New York, et al., Appellees, 469 F.2d 623 (2d Cir. 1972)

The only thing this teacher refused to do was refer to the student using a masculine pronoun because he did not believe her to be male.

While I do not object to this behavior, I simply note that such behavior can and should have consequences.

I disagree and claim that it is a violation of the First Amendment.

This teachers consequence is that they must now find another job. Hardly unfitting as the teacher demonstrated his lack fitness.

He fought for his rights.

I hope he is compensated.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It is a bit of an object lesson for anyone hell bent on standing up for their principles. Those days are over, unless of course, your principles are in alignment with political correct doctrine, then you can do whatever you like.

But what if, just what if, a person's "principles" include denying another person's reality?

Although I'm gay, I identify as completely male, and I am so outfitted. I don't understand what it may be like to be in this body, yet feel as if "I" (deliberate quotes) belonged in another. This is, I think, a huge question: which is the more "authentic me?" My body or my mind...my consciousness of my own self? Well, of course, I think the latter. I would still be me if you cut of my left leg, took out my appendix, or if I accidently lopped off an ear. I would still be me if a stroke made moving and speaking more difficult, or perhaps impossible.

Therefore, when another person -- in whichever body -- tells me that their own feeling about themselves is other than that gross phenotype, should I not be willing to accept that this is true, that what they claim represents their own true self? And then should I not behave accordingly?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Making more claims without providing supporting evidence?

I never said that they were insane. I have claimed that they have a mental illness.

Depression is also a mental illness. Are you now going to falsely claim that those suffering from depression are insane?

I never said that transgender people are insane. They suffer from an underlying mental illness that is not being considered or treated.

Also, too much of any hormone is bad for anyone. Believing that you are the member of the opposite sex does not make you immune to this fact.

Hormonal imbalances lead to all kinds of health risks. Too much of any hormone is literally poisonous to the human body.

All of these hormones need to be in balance and the balance is slightly different for everyone. However, men and women have very different hormone balances.

And there it is: that hate you claim not to have-- on display for all to see.

Are you a Medical Doctor? Because you seem to think you are...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Yet you earlier claimed that I shared no such definition...

I have always maintained that biology determines sex.

I have claimed no such thing.

The only thing this teacher refused to do was refer to the student using a masculine pronoun.

In accordance with the school's policy, he refrained from using any pronouns when referring to this student.

Yes, there was the one "slip up" that caused this whole thing when he did refer to this student with a feminine pronoun, but he declared that to be an accident, a "slip of the tongue" and he apologized for it.

Compelling this teacher to refer to this student with a masculine pronoun is wrong.

My stance on this issue is similar to a school thinking they can compel a teacher to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. They can't.

In Russo v. Central School District No. 1 (1972), a teacher was dismissed from employment after refusing to salute the flag and recite the Pledge of Allegiance in opposition to the school's policy.

The Court ruled in favor of the teacher and concluded in summary,

"To compel a person to speak what is not in his mind offends the very principles of tolerance and understanding which for so long have been the foundation of our great land."

Mrs. Susan Russo, Appellant, v. Central School District No. 1, Towns of Rush, et al., Countyof Monroe, State of New York, et al., Appellees, 469 F.2d 623 (2d Cir. 1972)

The only thing this teacher refused to do was refer to the student using a masculine pronoun because he did not believe her to be male.

I disagree and claim that it is a violation of the First Amendment.

He fought for his rights.

I hope he is compensated.

Another long example of your hate, that I was speaking of.

 

[Curious George]

Yet you earlier claimed that I shared no such definition...

I'm still waiting on your definition of man and woman.

I have always maintained that biology determines sex.

You seem a little too sure about that for a person who will not offer a definition.

I have claimed no such thing.

Except that is precisely what you are claiming.

The only thing this teacher refused to do was refer to the student using a masculine pronoun.

Is that all? The teacher did use a feminine pronoun and the teacher treated one student different than the rest of the students in the face of being instructed to do otherwise.

Compelling this teacher to refer to this student with a masculine pronoun is wrong.

Requiring specific performance related to a persons job is not wrong.

My stance on this issue is similar to a school thinking they can compel a teacher to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. They can't.

In Russo v. Central School District No. 1 (1972), a teacher was dismissed from employment after refusing to salute the flag and recite the Pledge of Allegiance in opposition to the school's policy.

I am happy to pursue a constitutional discussion regarding solely freedom of speech. If that is your only protest.

We shall ask, can a school terminate employment for a teacher refusing to use a specific designation for a student when that teacher does not believe the student fits that designation, despite the schools determination that failing to use such a designation for a particular student, while doing so for all other students, is disparaging, disruptive, and contrary to the purpose of the school.

 

[Prestor John]

And there it is: that hate you claim not to have-- on display for all to see.

Are you a Medical Doctor? Because you seem to think you are...

Another long example of your hate, that I was speaking of.

Explain exactly what I said that was hateful.

 

[Prestor John]

I'm still waiting on your definition of man and woman.

If you are still waiting, then why did you claim that I "insert[ed] [my] own definition as nature's."

You seem a little too sure about that for a person who will not offer a definition.

I considered you to be disingenuous the moment you asked me to offer up "my" definitions of man and woman.

I decided not to engage with someone I suspected is only asking in order quote me out of context or twist my words.

Biology dictates sex.

Except that is precisely what you are claiming.

No, I never claimed that this teacher should be able to "define these terms as he will and then use those terms".

Both myself and this teacher would agree that referring to this student by a feminine pronoun would violate the policy, which is why he never did despite that one slip up he apologized for.

He is not Defining any "terms" or using any "terms". He referred to the student by whatever name she was enrolled under.

Is that all? The teacher did use a feminine pronoun and the teacher treated one student different than the rest of the students in the face of being instructed to do otherwise.

He did use a feminine pronoun, which was not deliberate and he apologized.

Have you never accidentally called someone the wrong name or used a pronoun accidentally to refer to them?

You never consider the possibility that the instruction offered by the school was wrong?

You believe a school can force a teacher to salute the flag and recite the Pledge of Allegiance, even if they have no desire to offer such allegiance?

A teacher can be instructed to refer to a child by anything the child wants, no matter how uncomfortable they may be with it?

Requiring specific performance related to a persons job is not wrong.

That depends on what is being asked.

An employer shouldn't think twice before requiring their employees to say, "Merry Christmas!" to their customers?

I am happy to pursue a constitutional discussion regarding solely freedom of speech. If that is your only protest.

I'm inclined to agree with the Court decision I shared with you.
[QUOTE="Curious George, post: 5992129, member: 38961"We shall ask, can a school terminate employment for a teacher refusing to use a specific designation for a student when that teacher does not believe the student fits that designation, despite the schools determination that failing to use such a designation for a particular student, while doing so for all other students, is disparaging, disruptive, and contrary to the purpose of the school.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure this teacher would have refused to use the designated pronouns if all the students requested to be referred to by the pronoun opposite of their biological sex.

How crazy would it be if each individual student could determine what to be called besides their name and the pronoun that describes their biological sex?

"Stephanie should be referred to as zer. And Jeremy is a gilo. And only refer to that student as "Tasty Cakes"."

Chaos and insanity.

Biology is impartial and should remain the standard of determining which pronoun to use.

That ensures that all the students are treated equally.

 

[Maximilian]

Your thoughts on the statement that his "Christian faith prohibited him from treat[ing] the student with respect and dignity."

“But now you must put them all away from you: wrath, anger, badness, abusive speech, and obscene talk out of your mouth. Do not lie to one another. Accordingly, as God’s chosen ones, holy and loved, clothe yourselves with the tender affections of compassion, kindness, humility, mildness, and patience. Continue putting up with one another and forgiving one another freely even if anyone has a cause for complaint against another. Just as Jehovah freely forgave you, you must also do the same. But besides all these things, clothe yourselves with love, for it is a perfect bond of union.” - Colossians 3:8,9, 12-14.


““You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy. However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have?" (Matthew 5:43-46)


From just these sample passages it's clear that Christians are compelled to treat everyone with dignity and respect.

Had this teacher actually been a Christian he would have found a way to do so without violating this mandate:

"For “whoever would love life and see good days must guard his tongue from bad and his lips from speaking deception." -1 Peter 3:11


As has been long established, XX = Female and XY = Male. So, while treating women as men or vice versa is ludicrous informed Christians recognize that transgenders are in the throes of an exceptionally cruel mental illness and their compassion would compel them to treat sufferers with extraordinary compassion and kindness.

 

[Maximilian]

So you feel it doesn't matter that a student who has gone through the stress of becoming a transgendered male and asks to be addressed as such, should have his wishes ignored, and be referred to as a "she" or "her" no matter how much it may hurt him.

Therein lies the cruelty of indulging the delusions of these suffering from Gender Dysphoria:

 

[Curious George]

If you are still waiting, then why did you claim that I "insert[ed] [my] own definition as nature's."

Because what you are doing is aparent even without you clearly defining your terms.

I considered you to be disingenuous the moment you asked me to offer up "my" definitions of man and woman.

I decided not to engage with someone I suspected is only asking in order quote me out of context or twist my words.

Biology dictates sex.

It is really not that complicated. Any categorization you can make, I can find an exception. The truth is that it is not so clear cut and we do not have knowledge that clearly defines gender and sex. We can at best speak in generalities. Doing so leaves no reason not to provide exceptions for specific instances. The teacher would not, could not have the information necessary to determine whether a student is or was a certain sex. The teacher may not believe the student is a particular sex, but that does not give the teacher license to treat that child differently than other students (over objections fro students, parents, administration and the school board).

 

[Curious George]

No, I never claimed that this teacher should be able to "define these terms as he will and then use those terms".

Both myself and this teacher would agree that referring to this student by a feminine pronoun would violate the policy, which is why he never did despite that one slip up he apologized for.

He is not Defining any "terms" or using any "terms". He referred to the student by whatever name she was enrolled under

And this is where we see the teachers actions differently. The teacher is singling out one student or type of student by refusing to use pronouns for that student, while continuing to use pronouns for al other students. Then, when the teacher does use a pronoum for that student he uses the wrong pronoun calls it a mistake and then proceeds to refuse to use any pronoun again for this particular student.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Biology dictates sex.

Are you 100% sure? What are your qualifications, and from which institution did you acquire them?

Also, is "sex" the same thing as "gender," and is there any such thing as "gender identity?" Please provide details of the studies where you have concluded, based on the evidence of testing, that they're all one and the same thing.

Have you, while you were engaged in these deep studies, come across the data that shows that some sexual ambiguity shows about in humans at about the same rate as redheadedness (2%)? Some ambiguity is actually quite common in delivery rooms all over the world. Are you aware, for example that according to the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights that :

"Intersex people are born with sex characteristics (including genitals, gonads and chromosome patterns) that do not fit typical binary notions of male or female bodies.

Intersex is an umbrella term used to describe a wide range of natural bodily variations. In some cases, intersex traits are visible at birth while in others, they are not apparent until puberty. Some chromosomal intersex variations may not be physically apparent at all."

Now, if it can be shown that biology isn't always exactly a one or the other outcome, either totally male or totally female, how has your research been going on how the brain itself is sexualized...in other words, have your studies demonstrated that there is no actual difference between a brain that identifies as female and a brain that identifies as male?

And of course, while you,re at it, we'd all be totally interested in your studies of whether or not one type of "biological" body can host the other type of "biological" brain.

We all look forward to being enlightened as you unveil the fruit of your hard work in studying this subject...

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Nonsense while ignoring chromosomal sex and phenotype sex in humans.

You are ignoring scientific FACT that if you go strictly by XY/XX you are going to get at least a handful of predictions wrong. This is not limited to just transgender people.

Which is a development issue.

It's not classified as or considered a developmental issue, and because it does cause issues is the reason why there are medical practices and standards in place, and why treatment went from a sort of proto-conversion therapy to medical-assisted transitions - because it is an issue and there has been research into what works to treat it and what doesn't.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Have you, while you were engaged in these deep studies, come across the data

I don't know about intersexs, but he has been provided quality data for transgender people (I personally linked him to it).

 

[Shad]

You are ignoring scientific FACT that if you go strictly by XY/XX you are going to get at least a handful of predictions wrong. This is not limited to just transgender people.

Those are called disorders of an existing sex.

It's not classified as or considered a developmental issue,

Which is a blatant error as it is a development issue. Keep in mind I am talking about development in context human development.

and because it does cause issues is the reason why there are medical practices and standards in place, and why treatment went from a sort of proto-conversion therapy to medical-assisted transitions - because it is an issue and there has been research into what works to treat it and what doesn't.

Now it is just body mutilation. Really an improvement you go there.