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Teachers sign pledge not to lie to students.

JustGeorge

Imperfect
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm in one of the states that have the bill in place(Iowa), and I think its disgusting. I am comforted that some teachers have pledged to teach history as it was. I worry not enough will...

Glad I'm homeschooling.
 

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
Your far left ideology and activism does not belong in the classroom, and if you break the law, you deserve whatever comes your way.
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
It's great to know that's happening.
Your far left ideology and activism does not belong in the classroom, and if you break the law, you deserve whatever comes your way.
It's better than that. Such as, it opens the possibility of "barbarians causing boarder problems for Rome" being changed to reflect those "barbarians" were independent city states, villages, and tribes fighting against Roman oppression.
It's always nice seeing an empire loosing a hold on it's narrative that justifies its brutality and oppresiveness that grew its power.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
An extension of my other thread regarding critical race theory.

Unfortunately right-wing conservatives have been circulating untruths about teachers teaching about U.S. history and proclaiming teachers are teaching CRT (which is lie) also indoctrinating kids, in particular, white kids and kids of color that whites kids should be ashamed for being white and kids of color are oppressed. All of which are untrue, which has lead to parents reaching out to school boards complaining that the teaching of U.S. history and most specifically critical race theory will lead to the conditioning and demonization of white kids (emphasis on the complaining of potentially hurting white children). The major problem with this are lies spread by republicans which in all respect, essentially goes back to the lies Trump has spread to his party regarding CRT. Because many conservatives don't use their brain, they eat this up with a herd mentality and are parroting and circulating the same lies regarding CRT. Before Trump even mentioned CRT, nobody and I mean nobody even know what it was nobody here on this forum nor anyone else. Soon as Trump mentioned it the lies began thus lead to the OP's thread. Congratulations people of the U.S. we have proven we are among some of the dumbest on the planet and the most disingenuous.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Your far left ideology and activism does not belong in the classroom, and if you break the law, you deserve whatever comes your way.

What does breaking the law have to do with anything? It's okay to talk about Columbus discovering "the New World" and it is okay to talk about the formation of the 13 colonies but not the evolution of the United States and the horrors that came along with it?
 

Secret Chief

Vetted Member
Pledge to Teach the Truth: Despite New State Bills Against It | Zinn Education Project

We, the undersigned educators, refuse to lie to young people about U.S. history and current events — regardless of the law.

Comments? Thoughts?

Should teachers lie to students? Should teachers who refuse to lie to students be fired? Do you support legislation that requires teachers to lie to students?
You've put this OP in the "North American Politics" forum by mistake. Simply ask the staff to move it to the "North Korean Politics" forum.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Your far left ideology and activism does not belong in the classroom, and if you break the law, you deserve whatever comes your way.
So if the law says teachers must lie to students, you think teachers should follow the law and lie. Because the truth is a “far left ideology”. According to you, reality actually does have a liberal bias.
 
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Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Pledge to Teach the Truth: Despite New State Bills Against It | Zinn Education Project

We, the undersigned educators, refuse to lie to young people about U.S. history and current events — regardless of the law.

Comments? Thoughts?

Should teachers lie to students? Should teachers who refuse to lie to students be fired? Do you support legislation that requires teachers to lie to students?

Frankly,....

I'll believe it when I see it.

That means everything good or bad must be disclosed unbiased and not smacking of activism.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
What does breaking the law have to do with anything? It's okay to talk about Columbus discovering "the New World" and it is okay to talk about the formation of the 13 colonies but not the evolution of the United States and the horrors that came along with it?
Also don't forget indigenous history. That's important as well.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I'm in one of the states that have the bill in place(Iowa), and I think its disgusting. I am comforted that some teachers have pledged to teach history as it was. I worry not enough will...

Glad I'm homeschooling.
There's also the concern about the material by which the teachers themselves were taught which might not be accurate in its own right.

A teacher who was taught lies will teach lies as well although I wouldn't fault a teacher for that.

I think its a duty to make sure information is correct and as accurate as humanly possible.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Also don't forget indigenous history. That's important as well.

Indeed. It's funny (not in the comical sense) that you brought that up because when I was a child, grade school never taught us the true history behind the pilgrims and the Native Americans. It was not until I took political science my second semester in college that I learned about the true nature of "Thanksgiving."
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Indeed. It's funny (not in the comical sense) that you brought that up because when I was a child, grade school never taught us the true history behind the pilgrims and the Native Americans. It was not until I took political science my second semester in college that I learned about the true nature of "Thanksgiving."
The interesting thing I noticed was when I entered the museum while visiting the reservation which in this case was the Seneca Nation. It was so much different than that I was taught and had another perspective that is so horribly lacking in our education system.

I was almost angry at how badly skewed and incomplete my school was that it was embarrassing at best.

I learned so much more outside the educational system than within it when it comes to truth and accuracy. Basically to go to those who know it best.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
Question: Should teachers lie to students?
First are you limiting the question to teachers or are you including professors.
However, since you specified teachers I will follow that line.

Is see no problem with presenting the facts. Where I see the problem is when the teacher interjects their or someone elses opinion into the subject matter.
I do not see K-12 education expanding into a discussion period of a subject matter unless the class is a "college prep" class for those that wish to take said class.
For instance would there be any value for a high school class studing world history to get into a discussion, for instance, about the use of atomic weapons during WWII?

Question: Should teachers who refuse to lie to students be fired?
If they lied about the "facts" in the subject matter then yes.

Question: Do you support legislation that requires teachers to lie to students?
Answer: Has their ever been legislation put forward that requires teachers to lie to students about the facts? If so produce the legislation.
If the legislation specifies that teachers must lie about the facts then no I do not support that legislation.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Pledge to Teach the Truth: Despite New State Bills Against It | Zinn Education Project

We, the undersigned educators, refuse to lie to young people about U.S. history and current events — regardless of the law.

Comments? Thoughts?

Should teachers lie to students? Should teachers who refuse to lie to students be fired? Do you support legislation that requires teachers to lie to students?

History is oftentimes in the eyes of the beholder. One can deliver a boring recitation of names, dates, and events in an objective, truthful, and factual manner. But it's the interpretations, extrapolations, and opinions where much of the controversy can begin.

One can be factual and honest about events, but to speculate on possible motivations or causes may be more a matter of opinion.

I can certainly understand the reaction against a lot of the BS which has been told about our history, such as the Manifest Destiny viewpoint and the idea that America was founded by a bunch of tough settlers and rugged individualists who braved rough seas, arrived on these shores, and carved a nation out of a savage wilderness. This view may also include the idea that it was all "God's will" and therefore we had His blessing to do what we did. (A good percentage of people still believe in this basic idea. God Bless America.)

Others might take a more Social Darwinist approach and proclaim that "only the strong shall survive." I would consider that an amoral and malicious perspective, although we still seem to embrace that basic principle to some degree in the predatory, dog-eat-dog, competitive society we have in this world - even to this day.

I'm not sure what history is being taught in the schools nowadays, although I've noticed over the course of my life that there's been a reaction against the so-called "traditional" Eurocentric ways of looking at our history.

A lot of it has been used and misused to feed the American propaganda machine which portrays our nation as the beacon of hope, the shining city on the hill, the defender of freedom and democracy all over the world.

Even today, as much of the nation expresses its collective regret over its past sins, transgressions, and atrocities, we also speak of moving beyond that, being more enlightened (or "woke" as some people call it) these days, and recognizing that our past ways of doing things were absolutely wrong and immoral. It sounds good on the surface, and there's nothing at all wrong with teachers pledging to tell the truth about our history.

Another thing that I've noticed is that there are a lot of people who seem woefully uninformed about history. I recall a conversation I had with a co-worker who was shocked to learn that Abraham Lincoln was a Republican. She just couldn't believe it.

On another occasion, we had a new guy start at work, and he was from Ukraine. A co-worker had related to me how she didn't know where Ukraine was or ever heard of it before, so she called a bunch of her friends, and they never heard of it either. I just stood there with my mouth open, shaking my head in disbelief. I've also encountered a number of people who have never heard of Stalin before.

When I was taught history, I would later discover that a lot of what I learned early in school turned out to be BS or totally off the mark. I read a book called "Lies My Teacher Told Me," which I found quite fascinating. There's a large section which goes into the "First Thanksgiving," which I was taught early in elementary school. The view on Columbus has also significantly changed since the earlier positive treatment I remember.

I was also taught a decidedly pro-American view of the American Revolution and the War of 1812, and this has also remained somewhat of a "sacred cow" in how many people perceive this country and its early beginnings. Of course, we also learned about slavery and the Civil War, along with Westward Expansion - although some of my early school years I was living in upstate NY, and we moved to Arizona when I was in high school.

Moving from one region to another, there were noticeable differences in how the history classes were approached. History is sometimes viewed from an individual state's point of view.

We also Remember the Alamo, with John Wayne, an actor who portrayed an image of America which many people still embrace.

There was also Teddy Roosevelt's heroic charge up San Juan Hill, and we also go to Remember the Maine on that one. Uncle Teddy also gave us the Great White Fleet and liberated the people of Panama so we could have a canal. Then we came charging to the rescue and saved the world twice, in both WW1 and WW2. And we continued to protect the Free World from the Evil Empire. This is what many Americans have been taught and how they perceive the world.

I think some people might sincerely want to believe that they come from a brave, noble, and proud nation - full of goodness and righteousness rooted in the belief that they're carrying out God's will. We believe in liberty and democracy and freedom for the individual, as many Americans proudly boast. They view certain perceptions of history as too negative, saying that it's "blame America first" or "hate America first." They think that if people don't subscribe to certain BS perceptions of history, it means that they hate America, but I don't think that's really true.

If we tell the truth about America, if it's the whole truth, then we can see many positives in our history as well.

The question is not really about focusing on the past and all the grievous wrongs which have been committed in the formation and building of America.

The question is about the here and now and what direction we want to take in the future. We can't really "undo" America at this point, even despite our morally questionable and shaky foundation.

We can still exist as a sovereign, independent, geopolitical entity, but we don't necessarily need to get stuck on names or flags so much. We don't need to get stuck on "tradition." We don't need to cling to old outdated and outmoded ideals which don't seem to have much relevance in the modern world.

We can still have a prosperous, peaceful, just, orderly, and law-abiding nation. We're all stuck with each other here, for better or worse. So either we make the best of it and pull together - or we can fight each other and blow the place to Kingdom Come. The rest is just politics and academic commentary. The reality is a lot of heavily armed people out there preparing for Armageddon or some zombie apocalypse - or something like that. They think that they're the good guys and that these liberal teachers and progressives in academia are the evil ones - the commies out to destroy America and our way of life.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I grew up with Schoolhouse Rock as a kid in the 1970s, and this kind of sums up many Americans' perceptions of how this country got started. I've since come to understand that the British remember these events quite differently.

 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Question: Should teachers lie to students?
First are you limiting the question to teachers or are you including professors.
However, since you specified teachers I will follow that line.

Is see no problem with presenting the facts. Where I see the problem is when the teacher interjects their or someone elses opinion into the subject matter.
Would you have an issue with teachers telling their students that slavery is actually bad, or that Nazism was a horrible ideology? Those are value judgements, after all, not factual statements (even though they can be justified with facts)
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
History is oftentimes in the eyes of the beholder.
We should aspire to a history which is the disciplined product of peer-reviewed scholarship. That does not mean that there will not be matters that are either unknown or legitimate subjects of debate. It does, however, mean that we honestly and diligently seek to distinguish between history and propaganda.
 
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