Temptation of Christ - Problem

[KnightOwl]

I don't know if I'm the first to have noticed this but...

In Matthew 4 we are treated to the story of the temptation of Christ.

In that story Satan and Jesus to go the top of the temple and then a mountain. Satan points to all the kingdoms of the world and tells Jesus they can all be his.

For purposes of this discussion, lets ignore that if Christ was God or a portion thereof, all the kingdoms of earth would have already been his.

My question is this... Why did they go to a high point to see these kingdoms? Why didn't Jesus just use his supernatural powers to see them?

 

[Pegg]

I don't know if I'm the first to have noticed this but...

In Matthew 4 we are treated to the story of the temptation of Christ.

In that story Satan and Jesus to go the top of the temple and then a mountain. Satan points to all the kingdoms of the world and tells Jesus they can all be his.

For purposes of this discussion, lets ignore that if Christ was God or a portion thereof, all the kingdoms of earth would have already been his.

My question is this... Why did they go to a high point to see these kingdoms? Why didn't Jesus just use his supernatural powers to see them?

it appears from the account that the devil did show him these kingdoms by supernatural means.

The account in Matthew says that Jesus was in the 'wilderness' when the devil approached him. Look at vs 5
Then the Devil took him along into the holy city, and he stationed him upon the battlement of the temple 6 and said to him: “If you are a son of God, hurl yourself down
but all the while, Jesus remained in the wilderness...he didnt travel anywhere while being tempted. Thats why the account says that the temptations occurred in the wilderness. Matt 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the spirit up into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil.

So these were most certainly supernatural visions that Jesus saw...he wasn't literally taken up a mountain or climbed the temple in Jerusalem.

 

[bobhikes]

I don't know if I'm the first to have noticed this but...

In Matthew 4 we are treated to the story of the temptation of Christ.

In that story Satan and Jesus to go the top of the temple and then a mountain. Satan points to all the kingdoms of the world and tells Jesus they can all be his.

For purposes of this discussion, lets ignore that if Christ was God or a portion thereof, all the kingdoms of earth would have already been his.

My question is this... Why did they go to a high point to see these kingdoms? Why didn't Jesus just use his supernatural powers to see them?

I always thought the point of the temptation of Christ was that christ had to respond to Satan as any human would. He could not rely on his Godly powers. Christ seems to indicate this with each responce to Satan.

For Christ to be a saviour he had to experience life as humans did to a point.

 

[astarath]

Agreed. He was not perceiving as God but as a man.

 

[KnightOwl]

1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. ...
5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
...
8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

I'm not sure where you get that he didn't actually go to these places. He was in the desert, then taken to the holy city, then to an exceeding high mountain. My New World Translation (in fact all my hard copy bibles) are packed for a move right now or I would use that. Seeing what you've quoted however doesn't seem to change that interpretation to me.

To me, these passages indicate specifically that they did NOT use supernatural means. Otherwise there would have been no point in taking him to a high mountain. It appears obvious to me that the writers knew one needed elevation to see further away and only an exceedingly high mountain could provide the elevation needed to see long distances.

EDIT: new here... meant that to be reply to Pegg

 

[Pegg]

To me, these passages indicate specifically that they did NOT use supernatural means. Otherwise there would have been no point in taking him to a high mountain. It appears obvious to me that the writers knew one needed elevation to see further away and only an exceedingly high mountain could provide the elevation needed to see long distances.

EDIT: new here... meant that to be reply to Pegg

ok, i understand that the account certainly can be read that way...however, have a look at the parallel account in Luke - he adds a detail that Matthew does not which shows that it was a supernatural vision

Luke 4:5 So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time

This is the value of comparing the different gospel accounts...some writers add details that others do not. In this case Luke has given us the information that it was a supernatural vision the devil showed by mentioning that the kingdoms of 'ALL' the earth were shown in an 'instant' of time.

 

[astarath]

Satan is the one using the supernatural not Christ.

 

[Beta]

Satan is the one using the supernatural not Christ.

That is not surprising since satan is a supernatural being.

 

[KnightOwl]

ok, i understand that the account certainly can be read that way...however, have a look at the parallel account in Luke - he adds a detail that Matthew does not which shows that it was a supernatural vision

Luke 4:5 So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time

This is the value of comparing the different gospel accounts...some writers add details that others do not. In this case Luke has given us the information that it was a supernatural vision the devil showed by mentioning that the kingdoms of 'ALL' the earth were shown in an 'instant' of time.

To me, the way I read it in Luke is that they went to the top of a mountain because that was one place where they could be seen all at one time instead of traveling to each individually. Compared to that, scanning the horizon in few short seconds is an instant of time.

But now see, you've taken all the fun out of my next observation.

I was going to point out that it would have been very hard for them to see the Chinese and Mayan empires given the curvature of the earth, even if they could see that far in a straight line.

 

[Pegg]

To me, the way I read it in Luke is that they went to the top of a mountain because that was one place where they could be seen all at one time instead of traveling to each individually. Compared to that, scanning the horizon in few short seconds is an instant of time.

But now see, you've taken all the fun out of my next observation.

I was going to point out that it would have been very hard for them to see the Chinese and Mayan empires given the curvature of the earth, even if they could see that far in a straight line.

yes, i was wondering how long it would be before you realized that all the worlds kingdoms could not have been seen from a literal mountain top

but that does open the way to a new discussion....how does that song go?? "he's got the whole world in his hands"

Who has the 'whole world in his hands'? God or Satan the Devil???

 

[wordmagnifiedabovenames]

Who has the 'whole world in his hands'? God or Satan the Devil???

2 Cor talks about the devil being the god of this world.
This may be relevant to the OP, in which was said

...lets ignore that if Christ was God or a portion thereof, all the kingdoms of earth would have already been his.

If Satan is the god of this world, it explains how he was in a position to offer all the kingdoms to Jesus, with Jesus being God.

 

[Pegg]

2 Cor talks about the devil being the God of this world.
This may be relevant to the OP, in which was said
If Satan is the god of this world, it explains how he was in a position to offer all the kingdoms to Jesus, with Jesus being God.

:yes:

 

[Beta]

2 Cor talks about the devil being the god of this world.
This may be relevant to the OP, in which was said If Satan is the god of this world, it explains how he was in a position to offer all the kingdoms to Jesus, with Jesus being God.

There is no ' if '. The Bible states that satan is the god of this world 2Cor.4v4; Rev.12v9; and has so deceived it until this day and until Christ returns which will be very soon now. :yes:
Man's 6 days of 'self-rule' is almost up !

 

[KnightOwl]

I think the reason the story says they saw all the kingdoms was because they weren't aware of the Chinese and Mayans, and quite possibly one or two not on my radar.

I think a lot of Bible stories indicate a lack of awareness about things outside the author's immediate sphere. I also think that believers are quick to wallpaper over these discrepancies with claims that it was supernaturalism which obviously can't be rationally refuted, or claims that the passage was meant as allegory or had some meaning other than what we've been told.

The "other meaning" cop out (as I see it) is actually the most troubling to me because it speaks to something I've noticed... If the Abrahamic God is real as depicted by any of the Jewish, Christian or Islamic faiths, he is very adamant that he wants his respect. The first few of the 10 Commandments for instance require devotion to him and only him. Yet his ability to convey a clear concise message and make himself understood seems appallingly bad. One would think an omnipotent (or as close to omnipotent as one can get) being wouldn't have so much trouble communicating.

He certainly doesn't seem to be giving any clear guidance to the Anglican Church and the North American Episcopalians who schismed not long ago over the issue of gay marriage.

In fact, by mixing the languages at the Tower of Babel, he seems to have participated in confusing his own message even further.

One more way in which the communication thing is troublesome is the capacity for various individuals to comprehend his message. Someone with an IQ of 70 isn't going to gather the same message when reading about Balam's *** as the person with an IQ of 180. The person with an IQ of 70 is going to have a hard time actually even reading the entire Bible. Most people of average intelligence haven't read it even amongst believers.

I on the other hand would tell people, try to maximize the good you do and minimize the harm you do. As something meant to guide people to become better people, this seems much easier to understand by almost everybody than the Bible.

Sorry if I got a little sidetracked, although if I'm honest with myself, I probably was going there right from the get go in this thread. Truthfully didn't consciously intend to though.

 

[KnightOwl]

There is no ' if '. The Bible states that satan is the god of this world 2Cor.4v4; Rev.12v9; and has so deceived it until this day and until Christ returns which will be very soon now. :yes:
Man's 6 days of 'self-rule' is almost up !

If that is the case, consider me completely deceived.
That brings up a question... Should one punish those who allow themselves to be deceived? If God made me and he made me stupid enough to fall for Satan's elaborate hoax, then I should be fine unless God is unfair enough to punish me for his own mistake.

 

[gzusfrk]

I don't know if I'm the first to have noticed this but...

In Matthew 4 we are treated to the story of the temptation of Christ.

In that story Satan and Jesus to go the top of the temple and then a mountain. Satan points to all the kingdoms of the world and tells Jesus they can all be his.

For purposes of this discussion, lets ignore that if Christ was God or a portion thereof, all the kingdoms of earth would have already been his.

My question is this... Why did they go to a high point to see these kingdoms? Why didn't Jesus just use his supernatural powers to see them?

We as humans cannot use supernatural powers to defend ourself from satan, Jesus showed us what to use in that battle. Going to a high place was for the view, satans a show off.

 

[Koldo]

I am just curious.

Where is it said that "satan is the god of the world"?

 

[Pegg]

I am just curious.

Where is it said that "satan is the god of the world"?

2 Cor 4:3 If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers

John 12:31 Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out

1John 5:19 We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one

Ephesians 6:12 We have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.

 

[wordmagnifiedabovenames]

One would think an omnipotent (or as close to omnipotent as one can get) being wouldn't have so much trouble communicating.

As Pegg pointed out, listening to the whole message (reading the whole Bible) helps a lot in terms of correct interpretation. I understand how taking verses out of context can make them seem confusing, but when you read the whole thing the message becomes abundantly clear. I don't think God has any trouble communicating.

He certainly doesn't seem to be giving any clear guidance to the Anglican Church and the North American Episcopalians who schismed not long ago over the issue of gay marriage.

He gave the guidance in the Bible. If 2 churches ignore it or misinterpret it, don't seek clarification on it etc, they're the ones doing something wrong, not God.

In fact, by mixing the languages at the Tower of Babel, he seems to have participated in confusing his own message even further.

I'd say He stopped the people from trying to get to Heaven their own way and encouraged them to rely on Him for getting to Heaven. This seems to re-enforce the message in the Bible, not confuse it.

One more way in which the communication thing is troublesome is the capacity for various individuals to comprehend his message. Someone with an IQ of 70 isn't going to gather the same message when reading about Balam's *** as the person with an IQ of 180. The person with an IQ of 70 is going to have a hard time actually even reading the entire Bible. Most people of average intelligence haven't read it even amongst believers.

That's only true if you discount the process of supernatural illumination, which doesn't discriminate based on IQ.

I on the other hand would tell people, try to maximize the good you do and minimize the harm you do. As something meant to guide people to become better people, this seems much easier to understand by almost everybody than the Bible.

That's a nice message, but won't help a person develop a personal relationship with God. Maximising good deeds and minimising bad deeds won't get a person into Heaven. Perhaps your message will guide people to become what you define as "better" people, but can you be sure that the purpose of the Bible is to guide people to become what you define as "better" people. The Bible says that David was "better" than Saul because David loved God. Your message of try to do good and try not to harm doesn't encourage loving God at all.

If God made me and he made me stupid enough to fall for Satan's elaborate hoax, then I should be fine unless God is unfair enough to punish me for his own mistake.

He also made a way out for you. He also gave you a choice. You're not going to be punished for being deceived, you (and everyone else on earth) are going to be punished for the things you've done (and thought, and said) that God consideres "wrong," unless you can somehow "get right" with God.

 

[KnightOwl]

We as humans cannot use supernatural powers to defend ourself from satan, Jesus showed us what to use in that battle. Going to a high place was for the view, satans a show off.

I don't believe in Satan either so it would be very hard for me to defend against him.