Tennessee passes Law, schools must display “In God We Trust”

[ADigitalArtist]

People will clash over this topic, but nothing is ever gained when people just stand by and let things be.

I can think of a ton of examples where doing nothing is the best course of action. Because overcommiting can damage your ability to do anything. See: responding to NK saber ratling, or 'nation building.'
But in any case I don't see myself as doing nothing just because I believe this particular concern is overblown.

 

[Jesster]

I can think of a ton of examples where doing nothing is the best course of action. Because overcommiting can damage your ability to do anything. See: responding to NK saber ratling, or 'nation building.'
But in any case I don't see myself as doing nothing just because I believe this particular concern is overblown.

And I don't think this is is over-committing. I actually used to choose to ignore the motto before like you are choosing to do. As soon as fundamentalist politicians began using it for manipulation though, I found cause to voice my objection. I think this law can do far more harm than my objection to it can. You are free to disagree. If so, enjoy your day day disagreeing. I won't force you to object with me.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

It sure made the big school motto enforceable.

You don't have to say it or identify with it, any more than the pledge of allegiance or that questionable Native American 'red man' school mascot.

 

[Jesster]

You don't have to say it or identify with it, any more than the pledge of allegiance or that questionable Native American 'red man' school mascot.

It doesn't matter. They still have to attend a government function with it displayed officially before them every school day. Children are easily influenced by these things. It's the same reason why school-led prayer is banned even if students are allowed to not join in.

 

[Revoltingest]

I can think of a ton of examples where doing nothing is the best course of action. Because overcommiting can damage your ability to do anything. See: responding to NK saber ratling, or 'nation building.'
But in any case I don't see myself as doing nothing just because I believe this particular concern is overblown.

You have my personal guarantee that nothing
will be accomplished here in our discussions.
So we really are doing nothing.
It should feel like winning.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

You have my personal guarantee that nothing will be accomplished here in our discussions.
So we really are doing nothing.

Never let it be said that exchanging ideas, even differing ones, even when no party convinces the other, is nothing. I disagree with you frequently and strenuously, but I still think it's better than never discussing the issues at all. I still very much value your input, Rev.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

It doesn't matter. They still have to attend a government function with it displayed officially before them every school day. Children are easily influenced by these things. It's the same reason why school-led prayer is banned even if students are allowed to not join in.

I don't believe children are devoid of personal opinion as to not be able to make their own decisions if someone in charge mentions God. I'm more concerned with school time being used than whether teachers are doing it.
In any case, the pledge isn't banned, and isn't likely to be.

 

[Jesster]

I don't believe children are devoid of personal opinion as to not be able to make their own decisions if someone in charge mentions God. I'm more concerned with school time being used than whether teachers are doing it.
In any case, the pledge isn't banned, and isn't likely to be.

Of course children can make their own decisions. We've all been children before though. We all know how much easier it was for us to be pressured by things around us. Someone merely mentioning religion has a small impact. Having it displayed as an official stance is a much larger influence though.

As for the pledge, I've objected to that plenty before as well. I don't think schools should be allowed to hold that in class. If it wasn't pushed on students in school like it is, I'd ignore it like I used to ignore the motto.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Of course children can make their own decisions. We've all been children before though. We all know how much easier it was for us to be pressured by things around us. Someone merely mentioning religion has a small impact. Having it displayed as an official stance is a much larger influence though.

As for the pledge, I've objected to that plenty before as well. I don't think schools should be allowed to hold that in class. If it wasn't pushed on students in school like it is, I'd ignore it like I used to ignore the motto.

Mandatory school prayer and god in the schools is still very much a thing in Scandanavia and yet... among the first women voters, gay marriage, atheist leaders, and a number of the big picture things we commonly associate with religious overreach in government. I still think us secularists in the US are targeting the molehills and struggling with the mountains. But that's just imo and I'm perfectly happy to agree to disagree.

 

[Revoltingest]

Of course children can make their own decisions. We've all been children before though. We all know how much easier it was for us to be pressured by things around us. Someone merely mentioning religion has a small impact. Having it displayed as an official stance is a much larger influence though.

As for the pledge, I've objected to that plenty before as well. I don't think schools should be allowed to hold that in class. If it wasn't pushed on students in school like it is, I'd ignore it like I used to ignore the motto.

Schools flying a flag of religion often make it clear who belongs & who doesn't.
That happened in some of my classes.

 

[Jesster]

Mandatory school prayer and god in the schools is still very much a thing in Scandanavia and yet... among the first women voters, gay marriage, atheist leaders, and a number of the big picture things we commonly associate with religious overreach in government. I still think us secularists in the US are targeting the molehills and struggling with the mountains. But that's just imo and I'm perfectly happy to agree to disagree.

School prayer influences people in Scandinavia as much as it does here. They just have culture outside of that which helps negate it. We do not and we won't any time soon. It's far better to nip these problems in the bud while we can. Fundamentalist religion has corrupted our government far more than it has in Scandinavia today. That's the tool fundamentalists here are using, so that's where I will focus my efforts to help counter them.

But that's just imo and I'm perfectly happy to agree to disagree

 

[Revoltingest]

Mandatory school prayer and god in the schools is still very much a thing in Scandanavia and yet... among the first women voters, gay marriage, atheist leaders, and a number of the big picture things we commonly associate with religious overreach in government. I still think us secularists in the US are targeting the molehills and struggling with the mountains. But that's just imo and I'm perfectly happy to agree to disagree.

Forced prayer is generally acceptable to believers.
But I see it as not only useless, but also divisive.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

School prayer influences people in Scandinavia as much as it does here. They just have culture outside of that which helps negate it. We do not and we won't any time soon. It's far better to nip these problems in the bud while we can. Fundamentalist religion has corrupted our government far more than it has in Scandinavia today. That's the tool fundamentalists here are using, so that's where I will focus my efforts to help counter them.

But that's just imo and I'm perfectly happy to agree to disagree

What specific culture outside helps prevent it and why is that inaccessible to the US? If it's not separation of church and state which prevents said corruption from occurring, and fundamentalism from forming, why do we pretend it does?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Forced prayer is generally acceptable to believers.
But I see it as not only useless, but also divisive.

I feel the same way about organized sports. :x

 

[Jesster]

What specific culture outside helps prevent it and why is that inaccessible to the US? If it's not separation of church and state which prevents said corruption from occurring, and fundamentalism from forming, why do we pretend it does?

Did I say it was the only thing that influenced people like this? I don't think I did. They have religious influences there, but far fewer than we do, even from a current government standpoint. From what I understand, it's because their church organizations don't push people on religion like we do here. Politicians don't push it there much either. It's far more acceptable in their culture to believe what you want. Here, on the other hand, we have a culture that treats you as lesser for not believing in God. One more tool to get people started early just piles onto the issues. We can't change our culture now, although it might change in time. That will take baby steps and several changes of generations. We can take larger steps now when it comes to laws like this, though. It's a preventative measure for the future.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Did I say it was the only thing that influenced people like this? I don't think I did. They have religious influences there, but far fewer than we do, even from a current government standpoint. From what I understand, it's because their church organizations don't push people on religion like we do here. Politicians don't push it there much either. It's far more acceptable in their culture to believe what you want. Here, on the other hand, we have a culture that treats you as lesser for not believing in God. One more tool to get people started early just piles onto the issues. We can't change our culture now, although it might change in time. That will take baby steps and several changes of generations. We can take larger steps now when it comes to laws like this, though. It's a preventative measure for the future.

I don't believe I said you did. My point is attribution to culture is sometimes used to handwave realistic proposals but are incredibly vague. Like, our culture is different than Finland so the Finnish healthcare system won't work for the US is hardly an answer. Not saying you're aking this kind of comparison just as an illustration.
If they weren't interested in pushing their beliefs they probably wouldn't make mandatory religious education, mandatory prayer, etc. I don't think the intent is any different than Christian fundamentalists. Rather I think the difference is the response. Lack of making religion a public hot button issue, by BOTH sides, where there's an us vs them. And I think that's changing in the US faster than you think. Creationism is falling rapidly, gay marriage was the first major civil rights victory to have approval in the majority of states before a supreme court ruling.
People in power like Pence don't scare me nearly as much now as 10 years ago because the majority of Christians in the US are becoming more liberal. He wouldn't have the sort of evangelical support someone like Bush did.
But some atheists still have this overzealotous 'religion is the enemy of freedom' reaction to anything. And it's alienating potential allies more than it' causing change imo. I saw someone yell at someone else because they said 'God bless you' to a kid after they sneezed. And I care about as much about that as this. I don't see this translating as a Christian overreach out to brainwash our kids.

 

[Jesster]

I don't believe I said you did. My point is attribution to culture is sometimes used to handwave realistic proposals but are incredibly vague. Like, our culture is different than Finland so the Finnish healthcare system won't work for the US is hardly an answer. Not saying you're aking this kind of comparison just as an illustration.

It's definitely not akin to the healthcare system. Healthcare involves how we help people with their health, and there are multiple solutions to that. Many people don't agree how to help people with this, but pretty much everyone agrees that we should in some way. Displaying proclamations about trusting God at a school only serves one purpose though.

If they weren't interested in pushing their beliefs they probably wouldn't make mandatory religious education, mandatory prayer, etc. I don't think the intent is any different than Christian fundamentalists. Rather I think the difference is the response. Lack of making religion a public hot button issue, by BOTH sides, where there's an us vs them. And I think that's changing in the US faster than you think. Creationism is falling rapidly, gay marriage was the first major civil rights victory to have approval in the majority of states before a supreme court ruling.

That's another holdover from their past they just haven't gotten rid of (yet). I think they should ditch it, and it's likely they will because of the direction they're heading, but it's not as important as us ditching it before it sets in. Prevention is easier than dismantlement. While we may improve over time, adding religious crap to schools will definitely slow down progress.

But some atheists still have this overzealotous 'religion is the enemy of freedom' reaction to anything. And it's alienating potential allies more than it' causing change imo. I saw someone yell at someone else because they said 'God bless you' to a kid after they sneezed. And I care about as much about that as this. I don't see this translating as a Christian overreach out to brainwash our kids.

Cool. I don't agree with those atheists. I'm taking a different approach. I don't know why you keep bringing them up to me, because it has nothing to do with me.

 

[Revoltingest]

But some atheists still have this overzealotous 'religion is the enemy of freedom' reaction to anything.

And some fundies will murder people who work at abortion clinics or humor magazines.
But nothing is achieved by citing the worst elements on either side.
They don't represent the whole, nor do they define the issues.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

And some fundies will murder people who work at abortion clinics or humor magazines.
But nothing is achieved by citing the worst elements on either side.

I don't think that's the worst of atheism. There are violent anti-theists blowing up churches too. I'm remarking on an upward trend of the less bad but still destructive allergic-to-all-things-religious becoming more prevalent, primarily in the US, and the inevitable backlash against movement driven atheism.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't think that's the worst of atheism. There are violent anti-theists blowing up churches too. I'm remarking on an upward trend of the less bad but still destructive allergic-to-all-things-religious becoming more prevalent, primarily in the US, and the inevitable backlash against movement driven atheism.

I think you'll find that attacks on churches are typically by believers.
Religious folk hate each other far far more than atheists hate them.
But finger pointing at extremists on either side still doesn't matter
regarding the issue at hand, ie, state imposed religious sloganeering.