Tennessee passes Law, schools must display “In God We Trust”

[Woberts]

I think the country is too divided over whether they want a Democracy or a Republic.

Benjamin Franklin told a lady "We have given you a Republic, as you can keep it"

It is through the ideology of a Republic that Democracies are created. We see that happening now.

Democracy vs Republic - Difference and Comparison | Diffen

Because that's an issue that needs to be addressed, when there are so many more that actually matter?

 

[Phantasman]

Because that's an issue that needs to be addressed, when there are so many more that actually matter?

True. When the country is divided like we are, it moves towards civil war. Right now it's words. Eventually, one side will resort to force. Just like the Civil War, half the country wants to challenge the US Government to do as they wish. Slavery back then. Illegal immigrants today. I see the President trying to avoid physical force, but I believe it will be necessary, as it was to Lincoln.

 

[Shaul]

Since when?

Well since the beginning of Christianity actually. There are fundamental differences between them notwithstanding the claim of some, including some Christians, that there isn’t any.

 

[Shaul]

Playing with words, I want to mention that "E Pluribus Unum" is inscribed on the Great Seal of the United States (something at least a little bit "official" I would think), as suggested by the committee Congress appointed on July 4, 1776 fore precisely that purpose. It remains there to this day, while "In God We Trust" is absent.

"In God We Trust" was adopted much later (1956 or 180 years later) in pretty obvious contradiction to the Framers' desire to keep religion out of it, and really is mostly present on money -- also know as "the root of all evil."

You Americans are really good at fooling yourselves about what you think you stand for.

E Pluribus Unum is the motto of the Seal of the U.S., not the motto of the U.S. itself. The lyrics "And this be our motto: 'In God is our trust.” is included in the verses of the National Anthem written in 1814. Furthermore “In God We Trust” has been used on U.S. currency since 1864. Before you deign to preach you should make sure of your facts. “In God We Trust” is the one and only official motto of the U.S.

United States national motto - Wikipedia

 

[Shaul]

Since TN has the 10 Commandments posted in schools, & allows teaching creationism
as biology, the religious intent behind a religious slogan looks pretty obvious.
Ref....
Tennessee ‘monkey bill’ becomes law

Ah, yes, the old “it’s obvious” argument. And as non-persuasive as usual.

 

[Shaul]

Mechanically it is not. However if it is done with the intent to establish religion, then it is. Intent matters here.

And yet the courts have ruled the National motto “In God We Trust” does not establish a religion.

 

[Shaul]

"In spite of their differences, Jews, Christians and Muslims worship the same God"
source

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are sometimes called Abrahamic religions because they all accept the tradition of a god, Yahweh, that revealed himself to the prophet Abraham.

The Abrahamic God in this sense is the conception of God that remains a common attribute of all three traditions. God is conceived of as eternal, omnipotent, omniscient and as the creator of the universe. God is further held to have the properties of holiness, justice, omni-benevolence and omnipresence. Proponents of Abrahamic faiths believe that God is also transcendent, meaning that he is outside space and outside time and therefore not subject to anything within his creation, but at the same time a personal God, involved, listening to prayer and reacting to the actions of his creatures.
Source: Wikipedia

"The Abrahamic religions, also referred to collectively as Abrahamism, are a group of Semitic-originated religious communities of faith that claim descent from the practices of the ancient Israelites and the worship of the God of Abraham. The term derives from a figure from the Bible known as Abraham.[1] Abrahamic religion was able to spread globally through Christianity being adopted by the Roman Empire in the 4th century and Islam by the Islamic Empire from the 7th century onward. As a consequence, today the Abrahamic religions are one of the major divisions in comparative religion (along with Indian, Iranian, and East Asian religions).[2] The major Abrahamic religions in chronological order of founding are Judaism in the 7th century BCE,[3] Christianity in the 1st century CE, and Islam in the 7th century CE.
Source: Wikipedia​

.

Well that didn’t prove your point. Because things might be conceptually the same doesn’t mean they are in practice or application. Furthermore this citation only speaks to things these religions hold in common but omits the things wherein they differ fundamentally. Also Wikipedia contradicts itself elsewhere. To wit,

“Christianity generally believes in a Triune God, one person of whom became human. Judaism emphasizes the Oneness of God and rejects the Christian concept of God in human form.”

and,

“Christianity posits that God exists as a Trinity; in this view God exists as three distinct persons who share a single divine essence, or substance. In those three there is one, and in that one there are three; the one God is indivisible, while the three persons are distinct and unconfused, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. It teaches that God became especially immanent in physical form through the Incarnation of God the Son who was born as Jesus of Nazareth, who is believed to be at once fully God and fully human. There are denominations self-describing as Christian who question one or more of these doctrines, however, see Nontrinitarianism. By contrast, Judaism sees God as a single entity, and views trinitarianism as both incomprehensible and a violation of the Bible's teaching that God is one. It rejects the notion that Jesus or any other object or living being could be 'God', that God could have a literal 'son' in physical form or is divisible in any way, or that God could be made to be joined to the material world in such fashion.”

Christianity and Judaism - Wikipedia

 

[Shaul]

Same God, just some differing viewpoints.

Nominal Christianity’ God is a Trinity and claims Jesus is God. Judaism absolutely rejects a Trinity and denies that Jesus is God. Different gods.

 

[Jesster]

E Pluribus Unum is the motto of the Seal of the U.S., not the motto of the U.S. itself. The lyrics "And this be our motto: 'In God is our trust.” is included in the verses of the National Anthem written in 1814. Furthermore “In God We Trust” has been used on U.S. currency since 1864. Before you deign to preach you should make sure of your facts. “In God We Trust” is the one and only official motto of the U.S.

United States national motto - Wikipedia

Before you deign to preach, you should check your own source.

The 1956 law was the first establishment of an official motto for the country, although E Pluribus Unum ("from many, one") was adopted by an Act of Congress in 1782 as the motto for the Seal of the United States and has been used on coins and paper money since 1795.

1956 was the first time it was made into a motto.

 

[Jesster]

And yet the courts have ruled the National motto “In God We Trust” does not establish a religion.

And yet they're wrong if that's what they say. How is it not clear that this is a religious message? It's leaving out everyone in the country who doesn't trust in that god.

 

[Revoltingest]

Ah, yes, the old “it’s obvious” argument. And as non-persuasive as usual.

I seldom invoke the argument of obviousness. But this is an unusual case in that the religious
motto invoking the named Xian god (ie, "God") is advanced by Xians, & not by members any
other religion. And the same legislators advance other laws which are even more overtly Xian.
Thus, it's obvious that the motto has specific religious intent. But is this really in dispute?
You wouldn't argue that it's merely a secular ceremonial motto, would you?

 

[Shaul]

And yet they're wrong if that's what they say. How is it not clear that this is a religious message? It's leaving out everyone in the country who doesn't trust in that god.

So you think you know better than the courts about legality.

Here is one other way to think about it, FYI. This motto need not suggest that Americans should trust in God (which is not defined as any particular god). It could simply be an acknowledgement that that vast majority of Americans do trust in God. Which would be correct. Polls repeatedly so the vast majority of Americans believe in God. It is also true that which God Americans believe in varies. Some believe in a Christian God. Others believe in a Jewish God, or a Muslim God, or a Sikh God, or a Hindu God or a Native American God. In others words the motto doesn’t establish any God. It merely acknowledges that Americans themselves have established a God, not the government.

 

[Shaul]

I seldom invoke the argument of obviousness. But this is an unusual case in that the religious
motto invoking the named Xian god (ie, "God") is advanced by Xians, & not by members any
other religion. And the same legislators advance other laws which are even more overtly Xian.
Thus, it's obvious that the motto has specific religious intent. But is this really in dispute?
You wouldn't argue that it's merely a secular ceremonial motto, would you?

I don’t think this motto necessarily invokes the Christian God. Nor is it correct that solely Christians legsislators advanced this. When Congress passed the legislation establi this motto there were non-Christian legislators (for example Jews) that also voted on it. So, yes, it is certainly in dispute that this motto solely invokes the Christian God. Yes, indeed. It could, for example be in harmony with an agnostic or Deist “God”.

There are also quite valid alternate interpretations of what the motto means. So, it is certainly not “obvious”.

 

[Curious George]

And yet the courts have ruled the National motto “In God We Trust” does not establish a religion.

I think the ruling was a little bit more narrow than that. I certainly agree that using the phrase "In God We Trust" does not establish religion if there is no intent to establish religion. This case is a wee bit different than the other and that makes a big difference.

 

[Jesster]

So you think you know better than the courts about legality.

So you think the courts always interpret the constitution correctly? They are without flaw? You should open a history book sometime.

Here is one other way to think about it, FYI. This motto need not suggest that Americans should trust in God (which is not defined as any particular god). It could simply be an acknowledgement that that vast majority of Americans do trust in God. Which would be correct. Polls repeatedly so the vast majority of Americans believe in God. It is also true that which God Americans believe in varies. Some believe in a Christian God. Others believe in a Jewish God, or a Muslim God, or a Sikh God, or a Hindu God or a Native American God. In others words the motto doesn’t establish any God. It merely acknowledges that Americans themselves have established a God, not the government.

That seems to be an interesting interpretation of it, but why should I take your interpretation as fact? Even if it is a general god instead of the specific God (which it isn't, hence the capitalization), that's still not aligned with our constitution. Even a general establishment of religion is still an establishment of religion. It doesn't matter if the majority of the country believes in a god (or even the capital God). It's still representing the entire country, and the constitution is set to protect the minority as well as the majority.

 

[Shaul]

Before you deign to preach, you should check your own source.



1956 was the first time it was made into a motto.

The quotations you copied from the citation I made are in complete agreement with what I wrote, on every point. So, yeah, I was and am correct.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don’t think this motto necessarily invokes the Christian God. Nor is it correct that solely Christians legsislators advanced this. When Congress passed the legislation establi this motto there were non-Christian legislators (for example Jews) that also voted on it. So, yes, it is certainly in dispute that this motto solely invokes the Christian God. Yes, indeed. It could, for example be in harmony with an agnostic or Deist “God”.

There are also quite valid alternate interpretations of what the motto means. So, it is certainly not “obvious”.

I'm quite certain that "God" doesn't represent us agnostics.
Questions....
How many Jewish legislators in TN do you think voted for this motto?
Do you think the motto is religious or merely secularly ceremonial?

 

[Jesster]

The quotations you copied from the citation I made are in complete agreement with what I wrote, on every point. So, yeah, I was and am correct.

You were trying to act like it was anything like our motto before 1956. It wasn't. You should also look into why it was ruled as our motto in 1956. It was a religious push-back against foreign atheists at the time because we associated communism with atheism then. Do you think this is acceptable?

 

[Shaul]

So you think the courts always interpret the constitution correctly? They are without flaw? You should open a history book sometime.



That seems to be an interesting interpretation of it, but why should I take your interpretation as fact? Even if it is a general god instead of the specific God (which it isn't, hence the capitalization), that's still not aligned with our constitution. Even a general establishment of religion is still an establishment of religion. It doesn't matter if the majority of the country believes in a god (or even the capital God). It's still representing the entire country, and the constitution is set to protect the minority as well as the majority.

It isn’t necessary for me to think the courts are infallible. I just report that they don’t agree with you this time. It is your problem to reconcile that.

But the government acknowledging that the people are religious doesn’t establish any religion. Anymore than allowing a religious tax exemption, available to all religions, would. The motto “In God We Trust” is not specific to any theistic religion and could be used by any, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Deist, Zoroastrian, or what have you. A motto that can applied generally can not be claimed to be specific to one only.

 

[Revoltingest]

It isn’t necessary for me to think the courts are infallible. I just report that they don’t agree with you this time. It is your problem to reconcile that.

But the government acknowledging that the people are religious doesn’t establish any religion. Anymore than allowing a religious tax exemption, available to all religions, would. The motto “In God We Trust” is not specific to any theistic religion and could be used by any, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Deist, Zoroastrian, or what have you. A motto that can applied generally can not be claimed to be specific to one only.

It would apply only to monotheistic religions.
This would be "establishment lite".