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Terrorism In US....Here We Go Again

gsa

Well-Known Member

I do not believe that mental illness and terrorism are mutually exclusive categories. Depressed people, even those deprived of sleep for days at a time, do not generally target two military installations. Just a few hours beforethe shooting, Abdulazeez sent a text message to a friend, which contained a link to an Islamic verse that included the line "Whosoever shows enmity to a friend of Mine, then I have declared war against him." He was also raised in a fairly religious environment and attended mosque regularly. Now, that doesn't demonstrate that he was a terrorist, but consider the following definition of terrrorism:


(5) the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that—
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping
; and
(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.


18 U.S. Code § 2331

This is why I think it is important that we label people like Roof terrorists. They are terrorists; their actions are intended to intimidate or coerce civilians and to influence the policy of the government by intimidation and coercion. The fact that they are mentally ill...who the hell cares? Plenty of people in the criminal justice system are convicted of crimes, notwithstanding their mental illness.

As for this kid, all signs point to radical Islamic terrorism, albeit the "lone wolf" variety. Consider this, from a New Yorker article last year:

According to Dr. Thomas Hegghammer, the director of terrorism research at the Norwegian Defence Research Establishment, Zehaf-Bibeau fits a profile of “converts with a history of delinquency among the Westerners in ISIL. He’s a little older than average; otherwise, there is nothing unusual about his profile.” Conversion to Islam itself isn’t a cause of violence, as we well know—Dave Bathurst, for instance, is an apparently peaceful citizen, disturbed by his late friend’s act of mayhem. What seems to be the problem, rather, is the fusion of radical jihadist ideology with other personal problems, whether they be alienation, anomie, or various shades of mental illness. In a world where “clash of civilizations” rhetoric is pervasive, it is possible that radical Islam offers the same appeal to some unstable individuals that anarchism had for Leon Czolgosz, who killed President William McKinley in 1901, and that Marxism had for Lee Harvey Oswald. If you are alienated from the existing social order, the possibility of joining, even as a “lone wolf” killer, any larger social movement that promises to overturn that society may be attractive. For a person radicalized in this manner, the fantasy of political violence is a chance to gain agency, make history, and be part of something larger.

“Islamic-extremist online recruiters are very good at pulling in people who are mentally vulnerable,” Heather Hurlburt, of the Washington-based think tank New America, said. She suggests that an effective response to the problem will draw at least as much on the insights of mental health as on the intrusions of the security state. The constant balance that needs to be struck, she said, is between monitoring dangers without alienating allies in the community, as happened with New York City Police Department’s polarizing surveillance of mosques. As Hurlburt noted, “Some of the efforts, such as surveillance of college students’ social-media accounts and police informers in mosques, have been controversial and counterproductive. Insights from mental health, especially post-Columbine, tend to focus on more community-centered efforts, which may give family and clergy tools and non-stigmatizing places to turn for help. Tragically, the father of the Canadian who killed a Canadian soldier with his car on Monday had previously reported him to the authorities.”

Recruiting troubled individuals who can be pushed toward violence ties in well with ISIS’s larger strategy. As Hurlburt observed, ISIS “seems to calculate—correctly, in my view—that small-scale lone-wolf attacks on symbolic targets will get it outsized attention. So you see these propaganda broadcasts encouraging individuals who may be mentally unstable, who may have had little or no actual training, to use weapons like knives and cars that will surely lead to the attackers’ capture or death. The propagandists seem to understand the link between certain forms of mental illness and susceptibility to mass violence, even if we don’t.”


Consider what the experts are saying here: ISIS aims to recruit mentally unstable people, if not as affiliates or soldiers, as proponents of the cause of Sunni extremism. Precisely because symbolic lone wolf attacks will get them international attention.
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
The news story I just heard did not mention anything about terrorism. It is looking more and more like he was just crazy. They have checked his cell phone and computer and so far no sign of terrorist affiliated groups.
He might well have been just whacked out on drugs and believed that the government was out to get him.

It also seems important to point out something else. For various reasons, the word "terrorist" gets used a lot here in the USA. Even when there is no connection to anything political at all.

Tom

Terrorism is an action, one with a fairly clear definition of intent that does not exclude other causal factors. I mean, many rapists and murderers are high and mentally ill, but we don't exclude them from the definition of rape and murder solely because of their other motivations or their mental state, although it may affect culpability on a case by case basis.

Terrorism ranges from mass murder to property damage. To me, there is fairly strong evidence that this was the act of a radical Islamist. And we shouldn't be surprised to discover that he was paranoid and prone to delusions. Many people who commit acts of terrorism are delusional.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
This is why I think it is important that we label people like Roof terrorists. They are terrorists; their actions are intended to intimidate or coerce civilians and to influence the policy of the government by intimidation and coercion. The fact that they are mentally ill...who the hell cares? Plenty of people in the criminal justice system are convicted of crimes, notwithstanding their mental illness.
With mental illness (certain ones, any ways) there does come into question understanding their actions, realizing consequences, and having thoughts that are based in reality.
As for this kid, all signs point to radical Islamic terrorism, albeit the "lone wolf" variety. Consider this, from a New Yorker article last year:
Chattanooga Shooting: FBI Recovers Gunman's Disturbing Diary - ABC News
Four days after the shooting, the FBI has not found any connection to overseas terrorist groups, but Mohammod Abdulazeez's diary says that as far back as 2013, he wrote about having suicidal thoughts and "becoming a martyr" after losing his job due to his drug use, both prescription and non-prescription drugs, the family representative said.
...
The family representative said Sunday that the family told the FBI there were no outward signs of radicalization but added Abdulazeez “was susceptible to bad influences” and would be affected by watching news accounts of “children being killed in Syria.” For all his struggles with drugs, the representative said, Abdulazeez also struggled with being a devout Muslim.
...
The family representative said Abdulazeez's family sought, without success, to get him treatment for his mental illness...
Personally, I feel the article is trying to put way too much blame on pot, but so far it does not seem he was motivated primarily by radical views but rather a mess of a life.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
(5) the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that—
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping
; and
(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.


18 U.S. Code § 2331

I haven't looked into this at all, so I'm just curious as to what policy of a government was this person trying to change?
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
With mental illness (certain ones, any ways) there does come into question understanding their actions, realizing consequences, and having thoughts that are based in reality.

Chattanooga Shooting: FBI Recovers Gunman's Disturbing Diary - ABC News
Four days after the shooting, the FBI has not found any connection to overseas terrorist groups, but Mohammod Abdulazeez's diary says that as far back as 2013, he wrote about having suicidal thoughts and "becoming a martyr" after losing his job due to his drug use, both prescription and non-prescription drugs, the family representative said.
...
The family representative said Sunday that the family told the FBI there were no outward signs of radicalization but added Abdulazeez “was susceptible to bad influences” and would be affected by watching news accounts of “children being killed in Syria.” For all his struggles with drugs, the representative said, Abdulazeez also struggled with being a devout Muslim.
...
The family representative said Abdulazeez's family sought, without success, to get him treatment for his mental illness...
Personally, I feel the article is trying to put way too much blame on pot, but so far it does not seem he was motivated primarily by radical views but rather a mess of a life.

But as I said, the two are not mutually exclusive. Islamic terrorists defy any typical profile. And this is nothing new: The Washington Post reported on the difficulties of profiling terrorists back in 2007.

To me, your observations are more suggestive of how we might better intervene to prevent radicalization and susceptibility to violence. But let's be clear: Most people with messy lives, mounting debt and a recent arrest for a DUI do not commit murders at US military installations. All a few hours after citing verses from the Quran. Does that mean that he was part of an international jihadist network? No. Does that lack of formal affiliation mean that he did not commit an act of terrorism? No.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
(5) the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that—
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping
; and
(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.


18 U.S. Code § 2331

This definition seems pretty open-ended and could be used to apply to almost anything. Of course, it could be used as a good excuse to send street-level gang-bangers and suspected Mafiosi and Cartel members to Guantanamo without trial.
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
I haven't looked into this at all, so I'm just curious as to what policy of a government was this person trying to change?

I assume US policy in Islamic countries, primarily the Middle East. Remember, attacks on military facilities may be aimed at influencing civilians. Much in the way that Roof hoped to spark a race war; his victims were not the only intended targets of his actions. We may never know with certainty, since this prospective defendant is dead and will not have an opportunity to defend himself against a federal indictment for acts of terrorism.
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
This definition seems pretty open-ended and could be used to apply to almost anything. Of course, it could be used as a good excuse to send street-level gang-bangers and suspected Mafiosi and Cartel members to Guantanamo without trial.

Terrorism can cover a lot of different actions, that is true. And the FBI itself identifies lone offenders, or "lone wolves" as they are sometimes called, as the primary source of domestic terrorism. Their ideological interests and motivations are very diverse. However, simply being designated a terrorist does not land you in Guantanamo. I don't want to run too far afield here. My point is, you do not need to be affiliated with a larger group, nor be mentally stable, in order to earn the designation "terrorist." You don't even need to be particularly evil; a lot of terrorism is directed against property.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Terrorism can cover a lot of different actions, that is true. And the FBI itself identifies lone offenders, or "lone wolves" as they are sometimes called, as the primary source of domestic terrorism. Their ideological interests and motivations are very diverse. However, simply being designated a terrorist does not land you in Guantanamo. I don't want to run too far afield here. My point is, you do not need to be affiliated with a larger group, nor be mentally stable, in order to earn the designation "terrorist." You don't even need to be particularly evil; a lot of terrorism is directed against property.

Would these "ideological interests" of terrorists necessarily be in opposition to the ideological interests of the United States government? In terms of violent tactics and methods, there isn't a heck of a lot of difference between organized crime and terrorism. But ideologically, they are very different, and that may be why they're viewed differently by the government. Organized crime is ideologically acceptable to the US government, which is why they get a pass, but those who are not ideologically acceptable are deemed "terrorists" simply by governmental fiat.
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
Would these "ideological interests" of terrorists necessarily be in opposition to the ideological interests of the United States government? In terms of violent tactics and methods, there isn't a heck of a lot of difference between organized crime and terrorism. But ideologically, they are very different, and that may be why they're viewed differently by the government. Organized crime is ideologically acceptable to the US government, which is why they get a pass, but those who are not ideologically acceptable are deemed "terrorists" simply by governmental fiat.

No. Some groups were labeled foreign terrorist organizations even though their ideological interests were congruent with US government objectives. For example, the Iranian MEK opposition group was listed as an FTO (foreign terrorist organization) for over a decade, a listing that was removed only in 2012. The group was dedicated to restoring a secular, democratic government in Iran...an objective that the US certainly does not oppose and is not in any way opposed by the US on any ideological level. The 1997 listing was simply a diplomatic reward to Iranian moderates. The PKK is a listed FTO, but we have coordinated with them in Iraq (seemingly in violation of US law, mind you). That listing reflects strategic interests relative to Turkey, not strictly ideological ones.

Some organized criminal groups are engaged in terrorist activities, to be sure. And they are not by an large listed as FTOs. There are a lot of reasons for this, many of them practical (drug consumers would be prosecuted for material support of an FTO, for starters). But that doesn't mean that cartels and similar organizations are not engaged in terrorist acts, they clearly are in Mexico, to cite one example. But the fact that you are engaged in terrorism does not mean that you will be charged with terrorism, particularly when other, easier avenues for prosecution are available (i.e., drug trafficking).
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
This happened 20 minutes north of my house. Whatever the outcome, my facebook feed has made me lose faith in humanity.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
No. Some groups were labeled foreign terrorist organizations even though their ideological interests were congruent with US government objectives. For example, the Iranian MEK opposition group was listed as an FTO (foreign terrorist organization) for over a decade, a listing that was removed only in 2012. The group was dedicated to restoring a secular, democratic government in Iran...an objective that the US certainly does not oppose and is not in any way opposed by the US on any ideological level. The 1997 listing was simply a diplomatic reward to Iranian moderates. The PKK is a listed FTO, but we have coordinated with them in Iraq (seemingly in violation of US law, mind you). That listing reflects strategic interests relative to Turkey, not strictly ideological ones.

I wasn't familiar with either of these organizations, although the Wikipedia link to the MEK group indicates that it's identified as "left wing" and "socialist," which would definitely be enough to be considered ideologically opposed to the US. The US ruling class has been obsessively and extremely afraid of socialism for over a century, so it's natural that their definition of "terrorism" would fall along ideological lines.

Some organized criminal groups are engaged in terrorist activities, to be sure. And they are not by an large listed as FTOs. There are a lot of reasons for this, many of them practical (drug consumers would be prosecuted for material support of an FTO, for starters). But that doesn't mean that cartels and similar organizations are not engaged in terrorist acts, they clearly are in Mexico, to cite one example. But the fact that you are engaged in terrorism does not mean that you will be charged with terrorism, particularly when other, easier avenues for prosecution are available (i.e., drug trafficking).

Mafia, drug cartels, etc. are all good capitalists, so the US government would never brand them as terrorists, since they are ideologically congruent with US interests.
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
I wasn't familiar with either of these organizations, although the Wikipedia link to the MEK group indicates that it's identified as "left wing" and "socialist," which would definitely be enough to be considered ideologically opposed to the US. The US ruling class has been obsessively and extremely afraid of socialism for over a century, so it's natural that their definition of "terrorism" would fall along ideological lines.



Mafia, drug cartels, etc. are all good capitalists, so the US government would never brand them as terrorists, since they are ideologically congruent with US interests.

To be clear, the US government cannot classify an organization as an FTO simply because it has divergent ideological goals. Terrorism requires some overt criminal act. Moreover, even FTO designations are subject to judicial review.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
But as I said, the two are not mutually exclusive. Islamic terrorists defy any typical profile. And this is nothing new: The Washington Post reported on the difficulties of profiling terrorists back in 2007.

To me, your observations are more suggestive of how we might better intervene to prevent radicalization and susceptibility to violence. But let's be clear: Most people with messy lives, mounting debt and a recent arrest for a DUI do not commit murders at US military installations. All a few hours after citing verses from the Quran. Does that mean that he was part of an international jihadist network? No. Does that lack of formal affiliation mean that he did not commit an act of terrorism? No.
While that is true that those with the messy life do not often commit such crimes, they are nevertheless the sorts we often do read about shooting up schools, shopping malls, theaters, and other public places.
 
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