Terrorist Attack in Oslo, Norway

[MissAlice]

I find it funny that before anyone knew who he was, there were many many comments in pages and articles blaming Al-Qaeda and Muslims in general. The sad thing is had my pen pal not told about the neo nazis living over and right wing nut jobs, I probably would've ignorantly assumed the same thing. :sorry1:

 

[Copernicus]

I find it funny that before anyone knew who he was, there were many many comments in pages and articles blaming Al-Qaeda and Muslims in general. The sad thing is had my pen pal not told about the neo nazis living over and right wing nut jobs, I probably would've ignorantly assumed the same thing. :sorry1:

This is a very important observation. Western societies more easily see the threat of terrorism as external rather than internal. So the default terrorism is always a Muslim, even though the threat from domestic terrorists is arguably greater. People talk about racial profiling at airports, yet the next person to carry a bomb or gun onto a plane could be another McVeigh/Loughner/Breivik--a deranged psycopath who is a purely domestic threat.

 

[Revoltingest]

I find it funny that before anyone knew who he was, there were many many comments in pages and articles blaming Al-Qaeda and Muslims in general. The sad thing is had my pen pal not told about the neo nazis living over and right wing nut jobs, I probably would've ignorantly assumed the same thing. :sorry1:

To blame Muslims by default is wrong. But so is to think of right wingers or even Nazis.
Tis best to not assume it's any group or political orientation. Let the facts come out & settle down first.

 

[Copernicus]

Which makes me all the more curious. I think understanding the guy is important - how else can it be prevented in the future if you don't know where it began? I am of course upset that it happened, and it's a terrible thing to HAVE happened. But that doesn't make it any less important to understand him, to know where things need to be changed to prevent something like this from happening again.

I'm not quite sure I get your point. The man is a psychopath. How is understanding him going to help? The only way to guard against such people is to maintain vigilance.

Unfortunately, we now live in an era where dangerous lunatics can get their hands on weapons of mass destruction. Hence, we have to be more cautious than ever in trying to make such things hard to get. This man was able to convince the government to allow him to have the fertilizer component necessary to make a powerful bomb. Their safeguards failed in this case. Therefore, they need to review their procedures to see if they can be improved. The same questions will arise about how he obtained his guns.

 

[islam abduallah]

too sad

 

[MissAlice]

This is a very important observation. Western societies more easily see the threat of terrorism as external rather than internal. So the default terrorism is always a Muslim, even though the threat from domestic terrorists is arguably greater. People talk about racial profiling at airports, yet the next person to carry a bomb or gun onto a plane could be another McVeigh/Loughner/Breivik--a deranged psycopath who is a purely domestic threat.

I very much agree. I also think the news and media tends to be more than bias when it comes to conflicts of interest which is basically why I limit my sources of information to BBC and CNN.

 

[MissAlice]

To blame Muslims by default is wrong. But so is to think of right wingers or even Nazis.
Tis best to not assume it's any group or political orientation. Let the facts come out & settle down first.

That's true although I think it tends to be human nature to question what we don't know or in extreme cases assume what we don't know.

 

[croak]

I'm glad to hear you're all right, jarofthoughts. Such a tragedy; I hope there's no one else involved and still at large.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Yes, and as I mentioned in the OP, I would ask people to refrain from making such speculations as we have very little to go on at this point.
All the information we have at the moment though, indicates that we have no reason to suspect the involvement of Alq or any similar organisation, ...

Good for you!

 

[jarofthoughts]

I'm glad to hear you're all right, jarofthoughts. Such a tragedy; I hope there's no one else involved and still at large.

Thank you.
Whether anyone else was involved remains to be seen.
The investigation is, of course, still on-going.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Unfortunately, we now live in an era where dangerous lunatics can get their hands on weapons of mass destruction. Hence, we have to be more cautious than ever in trying to make such things hard to get. This man was able to convince the government to allow him to have the fertilizer component necessary to make a powerful bomb. Their safeguards failed in this case. Therefore, they need to review their procedures to see if they can be improved. The same questions will arise about how he obtained his guns.

In this case he was, as far as anyone knew, a normal Norwegian citizen with no criminal record. He had also founded a firm, apparently to grow large amounts of vegetables, or so he claimed at the time, which would have given him access to the artificial fertilizer components. The bomb was likely made of no more than 3-600 kg of fertilizer, which really isn't that much for industrial use.
Unfortunately these types of bombs aren't that hard to make and ensuring that no-one gets access to the materials is close to impossible. Without going into any form of detail, a bomb like this can be made with fertilizer components, diesel and sugar, and the detonator can be made from a common alarm clock.
As for how he got a hold of fully automatic weapons, a type of weapon not easily obtained in Norway, that remains to be seen and will hopefully be revealed by the investigation.

I would like to add that both the politicians, most of the people interviewed and myself personally is adamant that we will not turn Norway into a police state as a result of this.
The Norwegian society prides itself on the personal freedoms we allow to exist, our sense of democracy and the feeling of equality shared by our people, and we will not allow some deranged psychopath to destroy that.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

jarofthoughts,

I have heard of these right-wing, neo-Nazi nutjobs over in Europe. But I'm not sure what it is, exactly, that they believe -- although I gather they think the current government is evil. I also gather that a lot of these people are motivated simply by mental derangement and paranoia, and not necessarily by any coherent political philosophy. Can you enlighten me?

My heart goes out to the victims and their families.

 

[jarofthoughts]

jarofthoughts,

I have heard of these right-wing, neo-Nazi nutjobs over in Europe. But I'm not sure what it is, exactly, that they believe -- although I gather they think the current government is evil. I also gather that a lot of these people are motivated simply by mental derangement and paranoia, and not necessarily by any coherent political philosophy. Can you enlighten me?

My heart goes out to the victims and their families.

Thank you.

As for the right-wing extremists, their ideology can vary a lot, but it is usually hate-filled and directed against immigrants and the authorities, the later mainly for allowing what they see as a trangression against "their" nation and society. They are usually racist in nature, although one should be aware that they do not call themselves by that name, at least not any more, nor do they usually identify as neo-nazis.
In the case of the cowardly and pitiful man who did this, he called himself a nationalist and a cultural conservative.
Their ideology is often based in a skewed narcisistic view of themselves and their own importance. Religious motifs may or may not be a part of the picture, but they are usually dogmatic in their views, utterly convinced that they are in the right and everyone else is in the wrong, facts an counterarguments be damned.
It is important to note that while the archtypical 'boot-boys' and head-shaved neo-nazis are a dangerous element in and of themselves, these are usually not the leaders, and as the events of recent days have shown, not the most dangerous. The leaders are often well-spoken, well-read, and present a very representiative image to outsiders, while still expressing views to the far right.
Terror in Northern Europe in general, and Norway in particular has not been the result of international terrorism, but rather the result of near or domestic threats.
This is something we would do well to take more seriously.

 

[Revoltingest]

I have heard of these right-wing, neo-Nazi nutjobs over in Europe.

It seem premature to make this a right vs left confrontation, especially since neo-Nazis could arguably be left-wing (the socialism thingie).

 

[jarofthoughts]

It seem premature to make this a right vs left confrontation, especially since neo-Nazis could arguably be left-wing (the socialism thingie).

That is true, and in either case I do not think this is so much a case of opposing political ideologies as it is about extremist madmen.
No-one I know, right wing or left wing, would even remotely contemplate the kinds of actions we have witnessed here.
When describing him as a nationalist and a right-wing extremist I am going by what the media calls him, and what he has called himself.

No Norwegian politicians or political parties has in any way attempted to make this a political issue, whether they are right or left wing.

 

[Flankerl]

Its sad.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

It seem premature to make this a right vs left confrontation, especially since neo-Nazis could arguably be left-wing (the socialism thingie).

You're absolutely correct. I only used the phrase "right-wing" because that is the phrase used to describe these people, not because I was trying to suggest they are akin to mainstream conservativism. At any rate, I would like to hear more about "the socialism thingie" and what else such people (whatever you call them) believe.

 

[Sylvan]

This is an unspeakable tragedy. I don't think I can say anything else about this.

While I do not condone any aspect of the views of this video, I thought I would post something he apparently had made to explain what he hoped to become a "movement" of european nationalist martyrs:
[youtube]rAwp2FnRmsE[/youtube]
Knights Templar 2083
{warning above link contains RACIST GARBAGE, do not click if you will be offended!} :tsk:


It is a summary of european history from his tweaked-out perspective, a vision of its future broken by "social marxism", and a call for the gathering of a european curtural underground of warrior-martyrs. Interspersed by dramatic music and scenes of Templars in battle. Curiously if you read between the lines he is explicitly anti-nazi, although certainly anti-semetic. Truly chilling on one hand, particularly given the level of violence this person inflicted on so many innocents, but kind of pedestrian on the other. I have heard this story before.. on the dusty tape cases of black metal album covers. This guy must have been truly mental, a bona-fide sociopath.. but the question is did a group of equally sociopathic people use him and help him along? Or was he self-directed? The work of a madman I can almost accept as an occasional inevitability, but if he becomes some kind of hero to similarly inclined youth or is the first of many that would be quite dire.

As someone who's religious views encompass an examination of what might be called loosely called "the western mysteries", I am anticipating an interesting backlash toward the bizarre Masonic/Templar aspects of his "philosophy".

 

[jarofthoughts]

Just a few thoughts on the events that took place: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-discussion/118349-evil-happened.html

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

It seem premature to make this a right vs left confrontation, especially since neo-Nazis could arguably be left-wing (the socialism thingie).

I have never heard of Neo Nazis being left wing in Europe. Although the first Nazis were by definition National socialists This was an extreme right wing philosophy and was the antithesis of Communism and left wing socialism.

To day neo Nazis in Europe fill much the same slot as Christian fundamentalist far right Libertarian Republicans do in America. The most extreme of them are candidates for slipping over the edged into doing these outlandish mass murders.
Most versions of neo Nazis are also extreme racists and nationalists.

The whole membership was outed in Sweden some time ago, when all their names and Photographs were published by special editions of all the national press. they have gone underground and softened their image. However they are still there, and re-surface in the right wing parties. They tend as a group to be intelligent, smartly dressed, well educated and fit into the mid to upper strata of society. In the UK that seem to only apply to the leadership as the general membership are generally misfits.