Terrorist Attack in Oslo, Norway

[Revoltingest]

I have been involved in politics for some 60 of my 76 years. From door knocker to local Liberal party Chairman.
I am well aware of various forms of the " Political Compas"... very few of them work particularly well in the European context. Or between national Politics.
I am also aware of the political differences between UK and USA cultures.

As a life long Liberal I do understand the need for Personal freedoms, but these should never be put before the needs of others or Society as a whole.

You should then know better than to paint this perp as a libertarian, right or left.
He is a mixture of left & right politics, but his singular distinguishing characteristic is that he is a violent sociopath.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Indeed.



If someone really wants to, it's hard to prevent them from obtaining firearms considering how widespread they are.



It is possible that he made it himself.
The Norwegian police uniform is of a practical sort, consisting of cargo-like pants with reflective stripes on the legs, a shirt or a NATO-like sweater with distinctions and a hat similar to a baseball cap, also with distinctions. You can get fairly good matches in the stores and then it's just a matter of faking the distinctions and the tags saying "Politi" (Police). In this manner you can fake a uniform that looks good enough from a distance.
Of course, impersonating a police officer can get you in serious trouble, but somehow I don't think he was too worried about that.

Am I correct that most of your police don't have guns?

 

[Revoltingest]

Am I correct that most of your police don't have guns?

Unarmed cops?
It reminds me of the Boy Scout slogan.....
[youtube]B1NwQR-odUo[/youtube]
‪Tom Lehrer - Be Prepared‬‏ - YouTube

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

You should then know better than to paint this perp as a libertarian, right or left.
He is a mixture of left & right politics, but his singular distinguishing characteristic is that he is a violent sociopath.

I do not disagree that he is a sociopath. Though I can not identify any left wing tendencies in him, but many right wing libetarian ones.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Unarmed cops?
It reminds me of the Boy Scout slogan.....
[youtube]B1NwQR-odUo[/youtube]
‪Tom Lehrer - Be Prepared‬‏ - YouTube

A majority of European police do not carry arms. In the UK only special units may carry arms. Though it would normaly only take a few minutes for an armed unit to turn up. All police have stab and bullet proof vests. Fortunately very very few have need of them.

 

[Revoltingest]

I do not disagree that he is a sociopath. Though I can not identify any left wing tendencies in him, but many right wing libetarian ones.

There is no such thing as "right wing libetarian [sic]".
That would make as much sense as "atheist Christian".
Jeeze, at least the atheists aren't being blamed yet.

His economic liberalism might not be what I thought, since I read it by the modern American use of the term.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

There is no such thing as a "right wing libertarian", despite the rantings of many lefty wags.
One either is a libertarian (favoring both social & economic liberty) or one isn't.
You might have noticed that he isn't big on social liberty.

Define socioal Liberty.
How does this differ from personal liberty?

I have never met other than right wing Libertarians.

Though I would agree "Liberals" are to the left of the political spectrum.

 

[jarofthoughts]

But... but... I thought that kind of thing never happened in a country like Norway?

This is the first time in history that anything like this has ever happened.

My heart goes out to all involved.

Thank you.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Judging by the man's manifesto, he considered himself to be a conservative/nationalist. His biggest adversaries were feminism, homosexuality, Marxism, cultural relativism, political correctness (especially in academia), and the Islamisation of Europe. Call it what you like, it is what it is.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Am I correct that most of your police don't have guns?

Norwegian police do not normally wear guns.
There is at least a pistol avaliable in all cars and they wear arms when the situation calls for it, which isn't often.
Also, there is the Delta group (similar to SWAT) which is used when dealing with dangerous armed perpetrators.
They were the ones making the arrest on Utøya where the shootings took place.

 

[Father Heathen]

Judging by the man's manifesto, he considered himself to be a conservative/nationalist. His biggest adversaries were feminism, homosexuality, Marxism, cultural relativism, political correctness (especially in academia), and the Islamisation of Europe. Call it what you like, it is what it is.

And how exactly could those views possibly be reconciled with libertarianism?

 

[Father Heathen]

I have been involved in politics for some 60 of my 76 years. From door knocker to local Liberal party Chairman.
I am well aware of various forms of the " Political Compas"... very few of them work particularly well in the European context. Or between national Politics.
I am also aware of the political differences between UK and USA cultures.

As a life long Liberal I do understand the need for Personal freedoms, but these should never be put before the needs of others or Society as a whole.

Unfortunately, given that you're trying to suggest that libertarianism and fascism are somehow compatible despite being exact opposites, I have to doubt your understanding of politics.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

And how exactly could those views possibly be reconciled with libertarianism?

I haven't a clue. I'm not trying to reconcile his views with anything. I was just trying to understand his views, out of curiosity.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Unfortunately, given that you're trying to suggest that libertarianism and fascism are somehow compatible despite being exact opposites, I have to doubt your understanding of politics.

That is an interesting thought "that libertarianism and fascism are somehow compatible " Though not one I have suggested. as far as I know fascists have never had personal freedom of any kind, high on their agenda.
That is not to say a Fascist might not want personal freedom to carry out his personal agenda.

Libertarianism has some affinity to Anarchy especially in its more extreme aspects.

 

[Sunstone]

This is our city.
And we're talking it back!

This is the best news of the day.

 

[Copernicus]

That is an interesting thought "that libertarianism and fascism are somehow compatible " Though not one I have suggested. as far as I know fascists have never had personal freedom of any kind, high on their agenda.
That is not to say a Fascist might not want personal freedom to carry out his personal agenda.

Libertarianism has some affinity to Anarchy especially in its more extreme aspects.

In the 1960s and 1970s, libertarians tended to identify more with Democrats, largely because of their association with civil libertarian causes. Since the 1980s, they have tended to identify more with right wing causes, largely because of their free market fundamentalism, due in no small part to the influence of Ayne Rand on the movement. The Republican Party has a very strong Libertarian component, and they often find themselves in an uncomfortable relationship with those who want to use the government to impose conservative Christian moral principles on everyone else.

Breivik has been an avid fan of American right wing politics, so he did at one point think about starting a "Tea Party" knock-off of the American movement, which has a strong libertarian flavor. I would not call Breivik a "libertarian", because he seemed to identify more with Christian fundamentalists than the somewhat "areligious" libertarian movement. (Ayne Rand was a flaming atheist. She hated Christianity.)

 

[Sententia]

His Manifesto Summary: Key points from the Norway shooting suspect's purported manifesto - CNN.com

Some ridiculous responses:

http://www.politicususa.com/en/laura-ingraham-blames-norway-terrorism-on-muslims

MR: Norwegian tragedy highlights impact of violent video games

Or

“If there are even a few deranged minds that can be taken over the edge by an obsession with violent games it is in every Australians interest that we ban them.

http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201107250006

Hope for Humanity:

We must – and will – meet terror with more democracy, not less. We must not lock up Norwegian society.

Read more: Resilient and peaceful Norwegians won't allow attack to change their way of life - mirror.co.uk

No one has said it nicer than AUF girl who was interviewed by CNN: "If one man can see so much hate, think how much love we can all see together."

 

[Valjean]

Libertarian? -- Pshaw!
Strikes me as a textbook Authoritarian Personality gone over the edge.

 

[Acim]

Hard to conclude, I think, the guy is insane. The manifesto suggests a rationale that is both extreme and not uncommon. Or perhaps I mean, not unique. But it is clearly a terrorist act and rather senseless in its aim.

I tend to believe all physical attack (including self defense) is sign of insanity, but not the kind of insanity that is physiological defect. The manifesto seems to suggest there was no other choice for this person but to carry out an attack, and from what I gather, he does see it as a defense.

It seems like the time for dialogue and healing through deeper understanding is not possible for his position. His mind made up, his war underway. With that in mind, it makes it easy to discount his role in the policy decisions of Norway. Not because of the horror of his actions. That more or less is a given, but because he seemingly has no way of connecting to a position of compromise and negotiation. Perhaps I am mistaken about this, and it does not feel right to put words into his mouth. Though the manifesto does have a stated position and his actions seem to be culmination of what that manifest is aiming at.

As jarofthoughts was saying it is up to Norwegians to decide how the country moves forward, and to take back sense of security, confidence and freedom. A call to bravery is most honorable. And should there be bumps along the way, Norway must know that rest of the world provides support and offering of blessings to 'choose again.'

 

[jarofthoughts]

It is becoming more and more clear that this person has a very skewed view of reality. For instance; he thought that people are regularily tortured in Norwegian prisons and he expressed disappointment that he didn't have time to read his "manifesto" aloud among the dead on the island.