Terrorist Win in Fight over Free Speech

[Darkdale]

Just because things like this have happened, doesn't mean that they have happened to this extent, over such a tiny thing. Sorry, insulting a prophet of God (in the eyes of Muslims) is not a tiny little thing to us, and it shouldn't be a tiny little thing to Christians or Jews. Just because society has made it okay to do these sorts of things, it doesn't mean that it is. We base our life around these peoples teachings, God chose these people for us, the least we can do is stand up for them. Only 50 years ago, women used to be respected in Western society, and they weren't running around wearing close to nothing... but now, it's the norm and it's okay. The same goes for this tiny little thing, believe me, insulting a Prophet of God like that (Mohammed, Moses, Jesus,Noah, Abraham) IS NOT A TINY LITTLE THING. AND IF YOU CANT UNDERSTAND THAT, MAY GOD HELP YOU!!!

lol I'm sorry, if you people have to riot over a cartoon drawling, A DRAWLING!!!!, then how are you going to coexist in this world with people that believe different things than you? What, are you going to kill me and my family if I make fun of your religion? Are you going to cut up my girlfriend? Over drawlings? colors on paper? Why can't you just shrug it off? What can't you allow people to believe different things and to have different values? Why do you have to murder people and burn down buildings? It's sick. It's evil. It's worth stopping.

Christ, this is why I think we can't coexist, because you can't handle drawlings. When something so small and meaningless makes people become uncontrollable and violent... how are we supposed to react to them? With pity? I don't think so.

It's so frustrating for me to see this kind of insane rage; there is no chance for peace or for living together if we have to obey Muslim law. I don't like Islam or any of the Middle Eastern religions. I don't want to live under your laws... that goes for the Christians too. Why can't we all just live in peace, with each other, with worrying about offending one another? We don't have to agree. We don't have to like each other. But we can at least expect each other to be peaceful can't we? Otherwise, screw it.... if the West overreacts, I won't care. Two wrongs don't make a right, but sometimes it eliminates one of the wrongs. *shrugs*

 

[Darkdale]

BTW sorry Darkdale, for the mix up of names... didn't mean to disrespect, was just typing so fast, wasn't thinking.

No. It was't disrespectful. I just don't want people to think that I have the ability to speak for anyone but myself. Especially when we are talking about such a sensitive issue. These are my own personal beliefs and they aren't shaped by my religious beliefs.

 

[Ori]

If all christians and muslims abided by their own scriptures, then there would be peace, unfortunatley people like twisting things to suit their own ends.

 

[Darkdale]

If all christians and muslims abided by their own scriptures, then there would be peace, unfortunatley people like twisting things to suit their own ends.

This might be true, but I think violence is also the natural result of an absolute belief in a One and only god. It makes people feel like, because the only, most powerful god is on their side, they can treat anyone that disagrees with them like they are less.

People need a higher standard than religion - people need to love life more than they love their religion, otherwise, people will continue sending themselves and others into their so-called afterlives. If people are willing to murder people over silly little drawlings, we are all in very serious trouble, because it means we can't coexist.

 

[Ezzedean]

lol I'm sorry, if you people have to riot over a cartoon drawling, A DRAWLING!!!!, then how are you going to coexist in this world with people that believe different things than you? What, are you going to kill me and my family if I make fun of your religion? Are you going to cut up my girlfriend? Over drawlings? colors on paper? Why can't you just shrug it off? What can't you allow people to believe different things and to have different values? Why do you have to murder people and burn down buildings? It's sick. It's evil. It's worth stopping.

Christ, this is why I think we can't coexist, because you can't handle drawlings. When something so small and meaningless makes people become uncontrollable and violent... how are we supposed to react to them? With pity? I don't think so.

It's so frustrating for me to see this kind of insane rage; there is no chance for peace or for living together if we have to obey Muslim law. I don't like Islam or any of the Middle Eastern religions. I don't want to live under your laws... that goes for the Christians too. Why can't we all just live in peace, with each other, with worrying about offending one another? We don't have to agree. We don't have to like each other. But we can at least expect each other to be peaceful can't we? Otherwise, screw it.... if the West overreacts, I won't care. Two wrongs don't make a right, but sometimes it eliminates one of the wrongs. *shrugs*

I never once made a comment remotely close to me wanting to kill you or your family. You seem to think it's funny that muslims are upset at a controversial comic. Laugh all you want, but trust me, it's not funny. We love God, and we love the prophets of God, it is human nature to get upset when someone you love has been insulted or hurt. You're right when you say we don't have to like eachother, but does that mean we should go around and disrespect one another? I dont think so. You let us be, and we'll let you be. Practice what you preach my friend, you're getting all upset at us reacting to a comic, so wy dont you just shrug it off and let it be? No one is saying the world has to obey Muslim Law, but if this world wants to have peace and love, than maybe the problem is free speech. There will never be peace and love throughout the land when there are such things as free speech, it's not religion that's the problem. I don't mind talking about these things, and hearing the views of other people aren't going to alter or change my beliefs, but at the same time you dont see me insulting or doing any kind of name calling towards anyones leaders, prophets, or Gods. It's one thing to have different views, it's a whole other thing to DISRESPECT another persons. Disagreeing is not disrespect, BUT drawing a comic of a Prophet with a bomb strapped to his head and calling him terrorist is.

**PLEASE CHRISTIANS, KNOW THAT I AM USING THIS AS AN EXAMPLE AND IN NO WAY DO I AGREE WITH THIS OR BELIEVE THIS.**

How do you think a Christian would feel if a comic was posted which had Mary (Mother of Jesus) having sex with a carpenter, and then in the next frame a pic of her giving birth to Jesus nine months later, and then her saying "Oh no, I better convince everyone somehow that I was a virgin otherwise I'm screwed"

It bothers me just typing that as an example, and I could only imagine what a Christian would feel seeing something like that, and if I saw them protesting over a comic like that, I would support it 100%.

I agree we need peace. I agree we should all be able to believe in what we want to believe in, but I disagree with the fact that we can say and advertise whatever the hell we want no matter how disrespectful it is. Religion, and belief in one God is the problem? I doubt it. Free speech IS the problem. I do believe there should be limits, if we want to co-exist in this world, and you think it can happen when comics like this are being drawn, and comments from the Iranian President are being made? You are strongly mistaken. How can we co-exist when such disrespect is happening?

I know the muslims aren't perfect, and I know we have done along, but NO ONE is perfect, and EVERYONE has done wrong. There should have not been deaths and murders over this comic, and the right thing to do would be to find these people who did these things and lock them up, going to war with muslims isn't the answer.

Peace and Blessings
Ezzedean

 

[Darkdale]

Free speech IS the problem.

And people wonder why we can't coexist? This is why many of us believe that Islam and Liberty cannot coexist, and I think you are simply reinforcing that line of thought. I don't care about Islam, but I can tolerate it. I do care about liberty and am not at all interested in allowing it to slip away just because Muslims can't handle it (or socialists, or Christian Conservatives, or Communists, or Dictators - has nothing to do with Islam, I'm against everyone that wants to restrict liberty).

 

[Ezzedean]

Prove to me that free speech and insulting anybody and anything we want is going to keep the world in peace. Until then, I'll stick to my beliefs. Just like you point out the flaws in Islam and Christianity, there are flaws in free speech. Speaking out and disrespecting someone is able to happen because of FREE SPEECH, peace cannot happen when there is DISRESPECT in the picture. Again, think want you want, believe what you want, but dont insult or downsize another person or group.
Peace and Blessings

 

[d.]

It bothers me just typing that as an example, and I could only imagine what a Christian would feel seeing something like that, and if I saw them protesting over a comic like that, I would support it 100%.

a fact that speaks volumes in this matter is the fact that jyllands-posten decided not to publish a caricature of jesus earlier last year, because it "might be offensive to cristians". christianity is of course the majority religion in denmark.

back to the topic at hand, sweden actually don't have total freedom of speech. we have laws that allows us to prosecute hate speech. someone might remember the åke green affair a few months back. some of these caricatures could easily be placed in that category.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_hat8.htm

no such laws were reinforced here however - please refer to my previous post in this thread for a clarification of what actually took place.

 

[Ezzedean]

I don't think that is a matter that is relevent to this thread.

I live in England; our prime Minister has long advocated a philosophy of 'Zero tollerance' towads people (whoever they are) who cause riots, pillage, arson, vandalism......whatever.

I don't for a moment think that any coolheaded Christian wants to declare an all out war against Muslims; I would be surprised to hear it if that was ever considered. It would be wrong, and immoral.

The vast majority of your people are law abiding (there is no doubt about that). Perhaps what they ought to do is to feel a sense of responsability towards the extremists, and deal with them "In house', before these people cause the havock they have caused.

I get the impression (and please forgive me if it is erroneous) that Muslims are very loath to report their own kind (even if they are aware that their friends are going to commit an illegal act).

Here is what Muslims should have done, from the beginning of this dreadful affair:-



Thousands join pro-Islam protest

The rally got off to a peaceful start

A demonstration by thousands of UK mainstream Muslims protesting against controversial cartoons satirising the Prophet Muhammad is under way.

Several thousands packed in to London's Trafalgar Square waving banners calling for unity against Islamophobia.

The rally started peacefully, allaying fears of disruption by extremists.

The event aims to explain the views of moderate Muslims towards cartoons published in a Danish newspaper which led to worldwide protests.

Organisers also said it aims to dissociate the mainstream Muslim community from a "minority of extremists".

"This is the heart of our faith - we believe it is wrong to talk badly about the prophet"


Hanifa Brka
Protester







Coach-loads of demonstrators arrived at the rally called United Against Incitement and Islamophobia, which got off to a trouble-free start at about 1340 GMT on Saturday.

Among them was Hanifa Brka, a 29-year-old student from Birmingham, who said: "This is the heart of our faith - we believe it is wrong to talk badly about the prophet.

"I would like to send a message to all honest Christians - we are all brothers and sisters."

A series of speakers gathered to support the Muslim community, including MP Jeremy Corbyn.

In his speech, which was met with cheers from the crowd, he said: "The only way our community can survive is by showing mutual respect to each other.

The rally is backed by Christian and peace groups



"We demand that people show respect for each other's community, each other's faith and each other's religion."

The event was organised by the Muslim Council of Britain and the Muslim Association of Britain, with the backing of a number of Christian groups, peace organisations and the Mayor of London.

Mayor Ken Livingstone had singled out football thugs and extremists and warned them to stay away, saying police would halt any attempt to disrupt the demonstration.

Organiser Anas Altikriti, of the Muslim Association of Britain, said he was confident the demonstration would not be taken over by extremists.

Police operation

He told BBC Five Live: "Our stewards are very vigilant, we're working very closely with the police plus we have made absolutely sure that there will only be one official slogan on our T-shirts and on our placards, and that is 'united against incitement and united against Islamophobia' - anything else is not down to the organisers."

Scotland Yard said it has been working with organisers all week to plan the operation, expected to involve 500 officers.

Protests held in London last week sparked outrage when demonstrators carried placards with strong messages - the Metropolitan Police said some protesters could be charged with "incitement to murder".

"We have the right to be angry... and we have to respect the rights of others "


Doctor Azam Tamimi, who is the director of the Institute of Islamic Political Thought, is due to Lead
The
Demonstration and said it would be peaceful. "The main purpose of the rally today is to object to what has been going on in a civilised manner. "We have the right to be angry, but we have to do it within the remits of the law, and we have to respect the rights of others," he said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4700482.stm

Thanx for showing that Michel...
Peace and Blessings

 

[michel]

Thanx for showing that Michel...
Peace and Blessings

Peace and Blessings to you.

 

[jamaesi]

Prove to me that free speech and insulting anybody and anything we want is going to keep the world in peace.

It will when people react in peace to insults.

 

[Darkdale]

Prove to me that free speech and insulting anybody and anything we want is going to keep the world in peace. Until then, I'll stick to my beliefs. Just like you point out the flaws in Islam and Christianity, there are flaws in free speech. Speaking out and disrespecting someone is able to happen because of FREE SPEECH, peace cannot happen when there is DISRESPECT in the picture. Again, think want you want, believe what you want, but dont insult or downsize another person or group.
Peace and Blessings

So if someone disrespects you, there is nothing for you to do but kill them? You just can't help yourself? How many people have you killed?

I'm willing to bet that you are just like me. I'm willing to bet that you haven't killed anyone, but have still had to put up with being disrespected, or having people hurt your feelings. I bet you are just like me, in that you've learned to live in peace with people that are different from you.

So why do you support these murderers and terrorists? Why do you hold them to a lower standard than you hold yourself?

 

[Ezzedean]

So if someone disrespects you, there is nothing for you to do but kill them? You just can't help yourself? How many people have you killed?

I'm willing to bet that you are just like me. I'm willing to bet that you haven't killed anyone, but have still had to put up with being disrespected, or having people hurt your feelings. I bet you are just like me, in that you've learned to live in peace with people that are different from you.

So why do you support these murderers and terrorists? Why do you hold them to a lower standard than you hold yourself?

Okay, you're right in the fact that I have learned to live in peace with people that are different from myself, I am a Muslim, so clearly Islam is not the problem. Why do I support these murderers and terrorists? PLEASE, I AM BEGGING YOU, ON MY KNEES, SHOW ME ONE POST, OR FORUM, WHERE I HAVE COME REMOTELY CLOSE TO SUPPORTING TERRORISTS OR MURDERERS!!!! The points that I am trying to make are that if we are going to have PEACE in this world, living in a society that allows you to say whatever you want, to whoever you want, in whatever way or disrespectful manner you want IS NOT GOING TO BRING PEACE TO THE WORLD!! If it's not muslims that are being insulted, or even if muslims decide to tolerate these things, it will be someone else who get's insulted, or someone else who takes things to the extreme. How do we resolve this? Change freedom of speech, to maybe something like FREEDOM OF INTELLIGENT SPEECH, OR INTELLIGENT DISCUSSION.

Freedom of speech allows me to walk up to a black person and call him the 'N' word. Should we be aloud to call black people something like that in our local newspaper? I don't think so. DIVINE posted something very interesting, stating that in Denmark a certain publication decided not to release a comic or article which portrayed Jesus in a bad way. Why is it a bad idea to show Jesus like that, and a good idea to show Mohammed like that? I'm not saying that the Denmark publication was wrong in not showing this article of Jesus, but they are wrong in showing the one of Mohammed.
Like I told you earlier, freedom of speech would allow me to write a comic of you and your family portraying them in a way that is nothing but false, and a lie. HOW IS THIS FAIR?? PLEASE TELL ME!!

Peace and Blessings
Ezzedean

 

[Darkdale]

The points that I am trying to make are that if we are going to have PEACE in this world, living in a society that allows you to say whatever you want, to whoever you want, in whatever way or disrespectful manner you want IS NOT GOING TO BRING PEACE TO THE WORLD!! If it's not muslims that are being insulted, or even if muslims decide to tolerate these things, it will be someone else who get's insulted, or someone else who takes things to the extreme. How do we resolve this? Change freedom of speech, to maybe something like FREEDOM OF INTELLIGENT SPEECH, OR INTELLIGENT DISCUSSION.

Well, you will have to kill me before I give up my freedom of speech. My freedoms are why I support the war on terror. If you want to restrict my liberties, you are only slightly worse than the terrorists - but at least you and I could live peacefully together. Disrespect does not cause violence. Violence happens when people fail to be civilized. People can disrespect each other and live in peace. YOU are proof of this! So why do you continue to act as those these murderers aren't anything but wrong? Why do you feel the need to limit other people's speech?! Who are you to limit my freedom?

Freedom of speech allows me to walk up to a black person and call him the 'N' word. Should we be aloud to call black people something like that in our local newspaper?

Yes. You should have that right. You should have a right to say anything you'd like (though I prefer you to be honest). If you hate black people, say so, let us know who you are, so we can all keep our eyes on you! lol Do you really want hateful and potentially dangerous people to be forced to keep their bigotry a secret?

DIVINE posted something very interesting, stating that in Denmark a certain publication decided not to release a comic or article which portrayed Jesus in a bad way. Why is it a bad idea to show Jesus like that, and a good idea to show Mohammed like that?

I don't think it should be illegal to show either. Google Mustafa Shag is you want to see something really offensive.

Like I told you earlier, freedom of speech would allow me to write a comic of you and your family portraying them in a way that is nothing but false, and a lie. HOW IS THIS FAIR?? PLEASE TELL ME!!

Because you don't have a right to deny me my right to express myself. What gives you the right to use the guns and power of government to stop me from saying things that make you uncomfortable. Would you have a problem with Denmark banning all Islamic Speech, because it offends Christians?

There, that is what we should do; if Muslims aren't for Free Speech, maybe we can just Ban All Muslim Speech in the Western World. They won't complain. I'm sure they'll understand.

 

[d.]

DIVINE posted something very interesting, stating that in Denmark a certain publication decided not to release a comic or article which portrayed Jesus in a bad way. Why is it a bad idea to show Jesus like that, and a good idea to show Mohammed like that? I'm not saying that the Denmark publication was wrong in not showing this article of Jesus, but they are wrong in showing the one of Mohammed.

just to clarify, jyllands-posten, the publication i was talking about, was also the newspaper that first published the mohammed caricatures.

my personal opinion is that extremists on both sides gain from this conflict, and that's why it has been so intense. in denmark right-wing populist parties has had a new membership rate of 10 times the usual; in iran, for instance, the president can use the outrage among muslims for his own ends and justify the production of holocaust cartoons.

muslims have all the right in the world to be offended by these caricatures - they were intended as a provocation from the start. i'm not by any means muslim, and even i was insulted when i first saw them - they reminded me of caricatures of jews from nazi germany. however, the best way to react to an insult is to not sink to the level of the insulter. i am against all forms of violence, whatever the reason. and a lot of muslims share that conviction.

to me, the freedom of speech discussion is meaningful talking about someone like salman rushdie. these right-wing groups, SD in sweden, Dansk folkeparti in Denmark, are always keen on freedom of speech when it comes to their own speech, not so much others.

 

[Ezzedean]

Well, you will have to kill me before I give up my freedom of speech. My freedoms are why I support the war on terror.

I'll remember that. Don't ever get on a muslim again if he says he will fight or die for God, considering you are willing to do that for free speech.

Disrespect does not cause violence. Violence happens when people fail to be civilized.

Correct, but disrespecting and insulting another persons belief is uncivilized.

So why do you continue to act as those these murderers aren't anything but wrong?

When did I ever say they were right?

I don't think it should be illegal to show either. Google Mustafa Shag is you want to see something really offensive.

I've seen this, and from I've read they are working at changing the name and image it's apparantly portraying.

Because you don't have a right to deny me my right to express myself. What gives you the right to use the guns and power of government to stop me from saying things that make you uncomfortable. Would you have a problem with Denmark banning all Islamic Speech, because it offends Christians?

I dont see a problem in speaking freely, as long as it's in an intelligent manner, and it's not disrespectful. Like I said, you dont see me insulting Asatru, Christianity, Judaism, Bahai, or any other faith although I have my disagreements. When there is respect, there will be peace, and alot of the free speech that you love so much.. is disrespectful.

Peace and Blessings
Ezzedean

 

[Darkdale]

I dont see a problem in speaking freely, as long as it's in an intelligent manner, and it's not disrespectful. Like I said, you dont see me insulting Asatru, Christianity, Judaism, Bahai, or any other faith although I have my disagreements. When there is respect, there will be peace, and alot of the free speech that you love so much.. is disrespectful.

I'm sorry, I don't want you choosing what is "intelligent" or "respectful" speech. I don't trust you with those decisions in my life.

Yes, I would be willing to die for freedom. I'd also be willing to kill for it. The people that are willing to die for Allah are the people who are also willing to kill me for being free. I have no problem with killing them first. Without freedom, nothing else matters. But thats ok. Be a friend or enemy. The die has already been cast. Good luck with that whole anti-Freedom of Speech thing. Knockout

 

[Judgement Day]

Darkdale, people like you makes restlessness in the society.

 

[Darkdale]

Darkdale, people like you makes restlessness in the society by saying false things and provocating.

And people like you put all of civilization at risk! So let's just let things play out and see who is on top at the end huh? All you are doing is reinforcing generalizations. After speaking with you, I have no doubt that you have no intention on doing anything about terrorism. You are supportive of these people. You just want to pretend like its' not a real problem. Not your problem. Sure. Well, if you can't help us, at least let us do our thing to solve the problem.

I will not live under Muslim rule, and here you people are talking about striking down freedom of speech in the West. We don't live like that. and we will not live like that.

 

[Ezzedean]

I'm sorry, I don't want you choosing what is "intelligent" or "respectful" speech. I don't trust you with those decisions in my life.

Same goes to you. Considering you thought I had every right to go up to a black person and call him the 'N' word. (See earlier posts)

Yes, I would be willing to die for freedom. I'd also be willing to kill for it. The people that are willing to die for Allah are the people who are also willing to kill me for being free.

Anyone who fights for Allah, should only be fighting for Allah because one is trying to kill them for doing so. No other reason whatsoever. So don't go saying were gonna kill you over free speech. Your mad that we disagree with it, so now you're talking about killing us. lol... ur a funny guy.

I have no problem with killing them first.

Good luck with that. You'd be all about killing someone because they thought it was wrong for you to say anything disrespectful or hateful to them or ANYONE ELSE. Good for you bud.

Without freedom, nothing else matters. But thats ok. Be a friend or enemy. The die has already been cast. Good luck with that whole anti-Freedom of Speech thing. Knockout

I think I'll choose not to be your friend, but I still wouldn't call you my enemy. Your putting words in my mouth, I said free speech is alright aslong as it doesn't hurt anyone or disrespect millions. (Like i said, if it's not muslims, it will be others) Sooo many protests and lawsuits have come from free-speech, I'm guessing that the Bad outweighs the Good. Good luck with your killing anyone who is against free speech, and apparantly the muslims are first on your list. I live in London, Ontario Canada if you ever decide to go on with this rampage. Tell me the difference with killing anyone who isn't blonde hair blue eyes? Should I give you the Hitler salute? Or just a simple goodbye? I'll agree to disagree with you. I have my cousins engagement to get ready for. Nice talking with you.

Peace and Blessings
Ezzedean Fadel