• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Thank you atheists...

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Now I am going
Was it a revelation?

To put it briefly...I was very upset about the end of my first romantic relationship and I spoke to "God" complaining about my state of affairs...I then started re-writing the book of Genesis. After that I felt I was able to emotionally emerge out of the depression I was in (self-diagnosed period of low motivation). Later I had a dream which was both very frightening and very empowering that related back to that earlier encounter.

I've interpreted this experience as an encounter with God and have been inspired to study God's word (the Bible among other things) and to otherwise commit myself to developing my understanding of the Christian faith. I felt after my dream that I should, at a very deep level, consider myself a believer and stand up for that belief (that I am a believer) in spite of what others might think.

So I would call that a revelation I think. It was a life defining and fulfilling pair of moments for me.

I would even go so far as to see myself as a would-be reformer of Christianity although I can't say my overall qualifications are much to impress...nor am I any significant influence. God willing...
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
What were your reasons for your atheism and what are your reasons for your current belief system (theist, deist, polytheist, etc)
I had no reasons for my atheism, just was that way naturally. I had some reason for theism, but it wasn't about reading some scripture for me.

There isn't that much difference between how I was and thought as atheist that makes practical difference. It's not even that important that I'm monotheist, to me it's just a natural outgrowth from an experience or maybe a set of experiences, depending on how one looks at the whole deal. It's something that's bit hard to understand for those who aren't "mystics"(for lack of better term). There's quite a few of us here on RF, some with religions some not, we represent the whole spectrum from atheism to polytheism here on RF. It's just that it's mostly us that recognize each other. Explaining it probably didn't make anyone the wiser, but it is what it is... and no, converting to what I believe isn't possible or desirable.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Was it a revelation that you converted?
In my case comparing it to revelation is ok if we don't take that to mean something literal from Bible and there's no flying chariots, hellfire or demons... just like the old story about the Buddhist monk: Before Enlightenment chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment chop wood, carry water.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
I had no reasons for my atheism, just was that way naturally. I had some reason for theism, but it wasn't about reading some scripture for me.

There isn't that much difference between how I was and thought as atheist that makes practical difference. It's not even that important that I'm monotheist, to me it's just a natural outgrowth from an experience or maybe a set of experiences, depending on how one looks at the whole deal. It's something that's bit hard to understand for those who aren't "mystics"(for lack of better term). There's quite a few of us here on RF, some with religions some not, we represent the whole spectrum from atheism to polytheism here on RF. It's just that it's mostly us that recognize each other. Explaining it probably didn't make anyone the wiser, but it is what it is... and no, converting to what I believe isn't possible or desirable.

Understood. It's based upon your own interpretation of one or more experiences. Hardly sound footing, but I'll leave you to it. Thanks for your reply.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
It is my observation that those who say they were atheists but now are "believers" really never were
atheists.

There could be-perhaps you are-an exception, but
the pattern is for people raised in a religious
setting will fall away from it for a while, to say they are
"atheist" but find they cannot really break free.
Something about this doesn't sit right with me... it reminds me too much of the frequent assertion a lot of monotheists tend to make, or at least seem to believe even if they don't explicitly state it (because they know it is irrational and will be rightly challenged), that being: "I am of the opinion that everyone believes in God, even atheists."

That statement is blatantly false and entirely assuming without basis, and I am not sure if yours rings truer for me only because I am obviously biased toward atheism. I'd rather just not think it in the first place.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Understood. It's based upon your own interpretation of one or more experiences. Hardly sound footing, but I'll leave you to it.
You could interpret it that way. Since I don't present any claims here, it leaves the sound footing part of your comment a bit up in the air.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
it reminds me too much of the frequent assertion a lot of monotheists tend to make, or at least seem to believe even if they don't explicitly state it (because they know it is irrational and will be rightly challenged), that being: "I am of the opinion that everyone believes in God, even atheists."

That statement is blatantly false and entirely assuming without basis, and I am not sure if yours rings truer for me only because I am obviously biased toward atheism. I'd rather just not think it in the first place.
I agree with you.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
You could interpret it that way. Since I don't present any claims here, it leaves the sound footing part of your comment a bit up in the air.

My apologies, I thought you claimed to be a theist or deist or polytheist of some stripe. If you do not believe in any sort of deities, then you are still an atheist. I don't know what sort of middle ground there would be, but I'm open to enlightenment.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
You could interpret it that way. Since I don't present any claims here, it leaves the sound footing part of your comment a bit up in the air.

Yes, that is the trick especially in the monotheistic religions...if you aren't advertising you don't seem to be a true believer.

The truth is, first and foremost in this area, subjective. I myself could easily acknowledge that my own "spiritual" experience could be interpreted in purely scientific terms. I would even grant that such a perspective is useful, valuable and even correct. But i would not take away the spiritual dimension I also associate with my certain experiences.

I even hold out hopes for having observed an objective set of features for the psychological experience of God. This set of features is something anyone may experience. But I would not under any circumstance claim this means that God is objectively real outside of human psychology and I would not insist that any given interpretation of such experiences has to conform specifically to the formulation on any of the world's great religions.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
I would assume that an atheist would also dismiss the notion of dharma or Tao or Buddha-nature in their specific spiritual formulatlons as literal aspects of the universe.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I would assume that an atheist would also dismiss the notion of dharma or Tao or Buddha-nature in their specific spiritual formulatlons as literal aspects of the universe.

I see them as alternate ways to view reality that I find beneficial. Mostly in that I can limit my reactiveness to the world and be more creative.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
My apologies, I thought you claimed to be a theist or deist or polytheist of some stripe.
Of some stripe sounds a bit less friendly. There's the claim that I'm monotheist, is that the extent of being on less solid footing?

If you do not believe in any sort of deities, then you are still an atheist. I don't know what sort of middle ground there would be, but I'm open to enlightenment.
Deities? That seems to refer to something supernatural antropomorphic creature existing above nature, not a term I would use. Of course it doesn't matter to me if literalist religionists or atheists wanting to claim I'm really an atheist. It reminds me of the old and tired "even atheists believe in god" type of deal. We can leave it there if you wish though.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
In my case comparing it to revelation is ok if we don't take that to mean something literal from Bible and there's no flying chariots, hellfire or demons... just like the old story about the Buddhist monk: Before Enlightenment chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment chop wood, carry water.

What was your conversion based on?

The Buddha went from ignorance to revelation of what ready existed. So, his conversion experience was of realization therefore, he chopped wood more efficiatelly in his present state then he did before his enligtenment. The Dharma (wood) didnt change. The Buddha's state of mind changed as he chopped wood.

When you converted, what was your mindset then as compared to now?

Anyone can chop wood all day, but those who converted in mind to the former its a repeative chore to the latter its enjoyable work. In The Dharma its a change of mindset.

Atheism, the mindset is not spectacular. It just is. When you convert, say to christianity, your mindset shifts towards god being important in your "wood choping." Some believers say they were blind and now they see. Its a revelation. They are still shoping, but they are saved while doing it (their perspective converted).

Did your perception convert to no god to a god? Are you still chopping repeatively; if so, whats the nature of your conversion, and why call it that if "it just is" before and after?
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Of some stripe sounds a bit less friendly. There's the claim that I'm monotheist, is that the extent of being on less solid footing?


Deities? That seems to refer to something supernatural existing above nature, not a term I would use. Of course it doesn't matter to me if literalist religionists or atheists wanting to claim I'm really an atheist. It reminds me of the old and tired "even atheists believe in god" type of deal. We can leave it there if you wish though.

No unfriendliness intended, I assure you. Perhaps I am completely misunderstanding you. I thought you stated that you were an atheist and that now you are not, correct? there is no middle ground between atheist and theist as far as I know. Elaborate for me so I can get a clearer picture of what your position is.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I would assume that an atheist would also dismiss the notion of dharma or Tao or Buddha-nature in their specific spiritual formulatlons as literal aspects of the universe.

No. Atheistz (as myself) dont believe in deities. Tao "just is". Buddha-nature is the potiential in anyone to be enlightened.

Atheist can be Taoist. Tao isnt a deity. Buddha nature isnt either.
 
Last edited:

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Well, I think I've already been down that path with my own (de facto) atheist appreciation thread recently @sealchan but I'm happy to chime in with some specific thoughts from the Catholic tradition (which I refrained from doing over on the other aforementioned thread).


Pope Francis: Atheists are all right!


It doesn't matter much to the atheists of the world that -- of all people -- Pope Francis is on their side. But he is. And that's a cool thing for all of us.... In a message delivered Wednesday via Vatican Radio, the new pontiff distinguished himself with a call for tolerance and a message of support

"This commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: We need that so much. 'But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!' But do good: we will meet one another there."
It was a deeper affirmation of his comments back in March, when he declared that the faithful and atheists can be "precious allies... to defend the dignity of man, in the building of a peaceful coexistence between peoples and in the careful protection of creation."

Ecclesiam Suam (August 6, 1964) | Paul VI


The Church can regard no one as excluded from its motherly embrace, no one as outside the scope of its motherly care. It has no enemies except those who wish to make themselves such. Its catholicity is no idle boast. It was not for nothing that it received its mission to foster love, unity and peace among men...

Though We speak firmly and clearly in defence of religion, and of those human, spiritual values which it proclaims and cherishes, Our pastoral solicitude nevertheless prompts Us to probe into the mind of the modern atheist, in an effort to understand the reasons...They are obviously many and complex, and we must come to a prudent decision about them, and answer them effectively.

They sometimes spring from the demand for a more profound and purer presentation of religious truth, and an objection to forms of language and worship which somehow fall short of the ideal. These things we must remedy. We must do all we can to purify them and make them express more adequately the sacred reality of which they are the signs.

We see these men serving a demanding and often a noble cause, fired with enthusiasm and idealism, dreaming of justice and progress and striving for a social order which they conceive of as the ultimate of perfection, and all but divine. This, for them, is the Absolute and the Necessary.

Again we see these men taking pains to work out scientific explanation of the universe by human reasoning, and they are often quite ingenuously enthusiastic about this. It is an enquiry which is all the less reprehensible in that it follows rules of logic very similar to those which are taught in the best schools of philosophy...

They are sometimes men of great breadth of mind, impatient with the mediocrity and self-seeking which infects so much of modern society. They are quick to make use of sentiments and expressions found in our Gospel, referring to the brotherhood of man, mutual aid, and human compassion...We do not therefore give up hope of the eventual possibility of a dialogue between these men and the Church.

Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern Word-Gaudium et Spes

(1965, Vatican II)​

"The word atheism is applied to phenomena which are quite distinct from one another. For while God is expressly denied by some...Many...contend that everything can be explained by scientific reasoning alone, or by contrast, they altogether disallow that there is any absolute truth....

Some never get to the point of raising questions about God, since they seem to experience no religious stirrings nor do they see why they should trouble themselves about religion. Moreover, atheism results not rarely from a violent protest against the evil in this world, or from the absolute character with which certain human values are unduly invested, and which thereby already accords them the stature of God...

Taken as a whole, atheism is not a spontaneous development but stems from a variety of causes, including a critical reaction against religious beliefs, and in some places against the Christian religion in particular. Hence believers can have more than a little to do with the birth of atheism. To the extent that they neglect their own training in the faith, or teach erroneous doctrine, or are deficient in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than reveal the authentic face of God and religion."
 
Last edited:

Jumi

Well-Known Member
What was your conversion based on?
I'm not sure I would call it as much a conversion as paying respects to the cross-religious and cross-cultural traditions of mystics that came up with the name God for the experience. It was a point that after reaching it, it became impossible to be atheist and be honest with oneself and others.

The Buddha went from ignorance to revelation of what ready existed. So, his conversion experience was of realization therefore, he chopped wood more efficiatelly in his present state then he did before his enligtenment. The Dharma (wood) didnt change. The Buddha's state of mind changed as he chopped wood.
That is quite accurate. I don't know too much about the Buddha, but I'm not surprised, buddhism is one of the religions closest to what have been referred to as "mystics" on RF.

When you converted, what was your mindset then as compared to now?

Anyone can chop wood all day, but those who converted in mind to the former its a repeative chore to the latter its enjoyable work. In The Dharma its a change of mindset.
Yes the mindset is different. Of course we do not need "theism" or "enlightenment" to find joy in chopping wood. For myself I would say that it's the restlessness is gone and it has been much easier to suffer through the painful conditions I've found myself in during the last year.

Atheism, the mindset is not spectacular. It just is. When you convert, say to christianity, your mindsrt shifts towards god being important in your "wood choping." Some believers say they were blind and now they see. Its a revelation. They are still shoping, but they are saved while doing it (their perspective converted).

Did your perception convert to no god to a god? Are you still chopping repeatively; if so, whats the nature of your conversion, and why call it that if "it just is" before and after?
In terms of conversion to what I feel is superficial religious belief, where external things become important it wasn't like that at all.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
No unfriendliness intended, I assure you. Perhaps I am completely misunderstanding you. I thought you stated that you were an atheist and that now you are not, correct? there is no middle ground between atheist and theist as far as I know.
Correct. I've not said that it's a middle ground I'm standing on, but further away from both literalist believers and atheists. You believe gods are necessarily supernatural creatures, right? I make no claims as to the nature of God, except that the experience itself has been called God in tradition. Whether it is truly supernatural or not, I believe that issue is something that the literalists and atheists enjoy debating with ones making claims and the others rejecting their validity, to me it doesn't make a difference. So tell me, is it an atheist position?
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Atheist can be Taoist. Tao isnt a deity.
Indeed as is written in the Lao-tze:
Lao-tze said:
The Dao is (like) the emptiness of a vessel; and in our employment of it we must be on our guard against all fulness. How deep and unfathomable it is, as if it were the Honoured Ancestor of all things! We should blunt our sharp points, and unravel the complications of things; we should attemper our brightness, and bring ourselves into agreement with the obscurity of others. How pure and still the Dao is, as if it would ever so continue! I do not know whose son it is. It might appear to have been before God.
However the similarity between a mystic's God and the Tao are much closer than creator Gods or antropomorphic deities.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Yes, that is the trick especially in the monotheistic religions...if you aren't advertising you don't seem to be a true believer.
So I've noticed. Being neither this or that gives rise to interesting emotional reactions sometimes.

I even hold out hopes for having observed an objective set of features for the psychological experience of God. This set of features is something anyone may experience. But I would not under any circumstance claim this means that God is objectively real outside of human psychology and I would not insist that any given interpretation of such experiences has to conform specifically to the formulation on any of the world's great religions.
I'm not sure that anyone can experience it, but I agree with the other parts of your post.
 
Top