That darned trinity.

[blü 2]

My church doesn’t tell me it’s incoherent. Neither does it tell me it’s “against” reason. It does tell me it’s “above” reason and I would expect it to because it aligns squarely with scripture (Isaiah 55:8-9) rather than skeptic philosophy.

But we're not talking about skepticism at all. We're talking about church doctrine.

Tell me: which of these statements do you disagree with.

1. God is a single entity.

2. God is three persons.

3. The three persons are distinct: though they each have the same substance as the other two, none has any of the identity of the other two.

4. This distinctness is unchanging.

5. Each of the persons is God in God's entirety. If you address one person you are addressing all of God, though (since the persons are distinct) you are not addressing the other two persons.

 

[Kenny]

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me”

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 10:29 “My Father [...] is greater than all”.

John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”​

'.

As I said... you can't compare The Word made flesh where He emptied Himself of His God attributes with The Word that was WITH God and the Word that WAS God...

Since Paul knew more about the Tannakh than you do and since the Apostles knew more that you do... I think I willl side with them and scripture.

Basically, what we have here is what appears to be an unbeliever trying to convince me that what I have read, studied, and confirmed through multiple sources is wrong.

That is like telling me that the God of miracles doesn't heal any more. You just a little too late to change what I already know.

2 Samuel 22:47 “The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be my God, the Rock, my Savior!

Titus 3:4-6 "and love of God our Savior appeared, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,

You can look at it in different ways... mathematically if A=B and B=C then A=C

God is our Savior. Jesus Christ is our Savior. God = Jesus Christ.

Or... you can look at the Godhead, God-the Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit... you can pick and choose.

 

[Kenny]

You see, Blu, I have explained why there is a difference between The Word before and after He was made flesh explaining why the scriptures you share say what they say.

But you have offered no compeling arguement to explain the scriptures that support my position other than.... "Thomas lied" - when Jesus didn't correct his statement and "churches say it isn't true"... hardly a position of strength.

 

[blü 2]

As I said... you can't compare The Word made flesh where He emptied Himself of His God attributes with The Word that was WITH God and the Word that WAS God...

So you're saying that when Jesus said the things set out in #35 and #46, he didn't know what he was talking about. He was simply mistaken, confused, cut off from the facts, yes? Like Dr Who in The Family of Blood, he'd lost the magic watch, right?

And you know that how?

Since Paul knew more about the Tannakh than you do and since the Apostles knew more that you do... I think I willl side with them and scripture.

Quote me Paul saying Jesus is God. The Kenosis Hymn says he had premortally resided in heaven (as Jesus himself says in the quotes at #35 and #46) but it doesn't say Jesus was God. Instead it says that God and Jesus are quite distinct. (And as I mentioned, it says that Jesus wasn't called Jesus until after his death.)

 

[blü 2]

You see, Blu, I have explained why there is a difference between The Word before and after He was made flesh explaining why the scriptures you share say what they say.

And you have steadily refused to believe Jesus' repeated assertions that he's not God, that God is his Father, that he worships the Father, that he has no power except what the Father gives him, and so on.

Is it proper, in your theology, to choose which statements of Jesus you'd like to believe and which to ignore?

But you have offered no compeling arguement to explain the scriptures that support my position other than.... "Thomas lied" - when Jesus didn't correct his statement and "churches say it isn't true"... hardly a position of strength.

Remind me: in what scripture does Jesus say, "I am God"?

Or did he neglect to specify that tiny detail?

 

[blü 2]

As I said... you can't compare The Word made flesh where He emptied Himself of His God attributes with The Word that was WITH God and the Word that WAS God...

Since Paul knew more about the Tannakh than you do and since the Apostles knew more that you do... I think I willl side with them and scripture.

Basically, what we have here is what appears to be an unbeliever trying to convince me that what I have read, studied, and confirmed through multiple sources is wrong.

That is like telling me that the God of miracles doesn't heal any more. You just a little too late to change what I already know.

2 Samuel 22:47 “The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be my God, the Rock, my Savior!

Titus 3:4-6 "and love of God our Savior appeared, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,

You can look at it in different ways... mathematically if A=B and B=C then A=C

God is our Savior. Jesus Christ is our Savior. God = Jesus Christ.

Or... you can look at the Godhead, God-the Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit... you can pick and choose.

Please simply explain to me WHY the Trinity doctrine is a 'mystery in the true sense'. In your view, what part of it (to quote the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church) "can neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed"?

You already have my explanation. Spell yours out for me.

 

[blü 2]

This was OUTSTANDING!

Unfortunately it's clear responses to my questions that are outstanding, which is to say, overdue.

As for the Trinity doctrine before the 4th century, I'd be interested in your comments on #80.

 

[Oeste]

But we're not talking about skepticism at all. We're talking about church doctrine.

We were talking about your skepticism of church doctrine.

Tell me: which of these statements do you disagree with.

1. God is a single entity.

A: There is only one God:

"I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God," Isaiah 45:5
​

2. God is three persons.

A: Father, Son and Holy Spirit​

3. The three persons are distinct: though they each have the same substance as the other two, none has any of the identity of the other two.

A: ....none has the same identity of the other. Each are aware and have common characteristics. For example, each has a will, loves, resurrects, etc.​

4. This distinctness is unchanging.

A: The distinctness between persons is unchanging, yes. Jesus never becomes the Father nor vice versa.​

5. Each of the persons is God in God's entirety. If you address one person you are addressing all of God, though (since the persons are distinct) you are not addressing the other two persons.

A: Correct.​

 

[blü 2]

We were talking about your skepticism of church doctrine.

Our subject is the Church doctrine of the Trinity. If the church can admit it doesn't make sense, why not you?

I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God," Isaiah 45:5

Father, Son and Holy Spirit

So far so good.

....none has the same identity of the other. Each are aware and have common characteristics. For example, each has a will, loves, resurrects, etc.

Close enough.

The distinctness between persons is unchanging, yes. Jesus never becomes the Father nor vice versa.

Correct.

This is where the irrationality, the 'mystery', arises.

You've agreed that each of the persons (a) is distinct from the other two and simultaneously (b) is God's entirety. Therefore three persons are each God's entirety.

That's incoherent. God has three independent entireties. That's three gods. Each can do anything without the other two. That's three gods. 100% of God + 100% of God + 100% of God = 300% = three gods.

Which is incompatible with the statement that there's just one God.

As the church concedes, though they call it a 'mystery', and I, using ordinary principles of reasoning and accordingly seeing no mystery, call it a nonsense, as I'd call any other incoherent claim a nonsense.

Please talk me through how you see it; and if you accept that there's a mystery, please also tell me the test that will distinguish a 'mystery in the strict sense' from a nonsense.

 

[Kenny]

I noticed that you didn't answer the question:

"Do you believe that Jesus paid the price for sin on the Cross so that mankind could be one again with The Father?"

So, I will assume the same as the first time I asked you whether Jesus was you Lord and Savior, you don't.

Again, I have someone who doesn't believe trying to convince those who do that our understanding is wrong. Just making a statement.

The god of the Tanakh is not triune. Paul never says Jesus is God, but is Lord to Yahweh the God.

The God of the Tanakh, as Paul understood and as we do also, is a triune God. Your understanding of Phillippians 2, where Paul directly says Jesus was God, is wrong as we have pointed out.

Tertullian denies the distinctness of the three persons, He says they are each manifestations of the one god, not each distinct and 100% of god as the Trinity doctrine says. I've already pointed out that if it makes sense, it can't be a 'mystery in the true sense' so it can't be the Trinity doctrine.

Tertullian just said what we said... There is but one God, manifested in Three... Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

This also fails the mystery test and is not Trinitarianism.

What mystery?

This says that Jesus and HG are creations of the Father, and get their divinity because of the Father, not in their own right. Jesus repeatedly says the same thing, for example:

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me”

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 10:29 “My Father [...] is greater than all”.

John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”
​

"You cannot equate The Word, who was God,and the risen Lord who received back his glory as God in the same manner as when he was made flesh as Jesus having he emptied himself of his God attributes and then use his parenthetical statements during that time on the earth as evidence.

No, as I said, the Trinity doctrine, the 'mystery in the true sense', doesn't exist till the 4th century.

Willful elimination of evidence shown is evidence itself that you simply are holding onto a "flat earth" theology. No matter what evidence is given, you reject it.

Your interpretation is so woefully wrong because it is a known fact that his statements are given as evidence of the Trinity and not against it.

With due respect to you and to Oeste, you don't seem to understand your own doctrine, or else you'd know why (in the church's eyes) it's necessary to call it a 'mystery in the true sense'.

Please share where the Bible says it is a mystery? It speaks of mysteries but not that one.

You see, you are a spirit, that has a soul and live in a body. A triune being--no mystery although God is fathomless.

 

[Kenny]

So you're saying that when Jesus said the things set out in #35 and #46, he didn't know what he was talking about. He was simply mistaken, confused, cut off from the facts, yes? Like Dr Who in The Family of Blood, he'd lost the magic watch, right?

And you know that how?

They say repetition is the best modem of learning so I will repeat that which you have not debunked:

"You cannot equate The Word, who was God,and the risen Lord who received back his glory as God in the same manner as when he was made flesh as Jesus having he emptied himself of his God attributes and then use his parenthetical statements during that time on the earth as evidence.

Quote me Paul saying Jesus is God.

Phil 2

The Kenosis Hymn says he had premortally resided in heaven (as Jesus himself says in the quotes at #35 and #46) but it doesn't say Jesus was God.

a hymn?

Instead it says that God and Jesus are quite distinct. (And as I mentioned, it says that Jesus wasn't called Jesus until after his death.)

This is supposed to make sense... how?

 

[Kenny]

And you have steadily refused to believe Jesus' repeated assertions that he's not God, that God is his Father, that he worships the Father, that he has no power except what the Father gives him, and so on.

Is it proper, in your theology, to choose which statements of Jesus you'd like to believe and which to ignore?

hopefully you will think throught this statement:

"You cannot equate The Word, who was God,and the risen Lord who received back his glory as God in the same manner as when he was made flesh as Jesus having he emptied himself of his God attributes and then use his parenthetical statements during that time on the earth as evidence."

Remind me: in what scripture does Jesus say, "I am God"?

Or did he neglect to specify that tiny detail?

I can repeat it again... it seems like you constantly miss the statements posted and I will add some for your edification: (of course, a cursury google would have been just as easy for you)

Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. (I think the Jews cleary understood what Jesus said)

John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM [He], you will die in your sins.”

John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

and, of course, Thomas who was with Jesus and understood Jesus who has a better understanding of who Jesus was (more that you or I who lived 2000 year later) said "John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”"

Jesus didn't say he was wrong and therefore, by default, he was right.



Just makes want to HUG my Lord, my God and my Savior.

 

[Kenny]

Please simply explain to me WHY the Trinity doctrine is a 'mystery in the true sense'. In your view, what part of it (to quote the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church) "can neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed"?

You already have my explanation. Spell yours out for me.

Oxford Dictionary (2005) isn't supportive documetation since it has lost its Christian beliefs.

But, as I said, you are a spirit that has a soul and lives in a body. Triune being - no mystery.

 

[blü 2]

Do you believe that Jesus paid the price for sin on the Cross so that mankind could be one again with The Father?

No.

whether Jesus was you Lord and Savior

No.

Again, I have someone who doesn't believe trying to convince those who do that our understanding is wrong.

Put it this way:

Is the doctrine of the Trinity coherent?
No.
Who says so?
The church.
Do I agree?
Yes, that it's incoherent. But the church calls the Trinity 'a mystery in the true sense' and it's easy to demonstrate that that notion is also incoherent.

Does the bible support the idea of the Trinity?
No. Jesus repeatedly denies he's God and never once claims to be God.

The God of the Tanakh, as Paul understood and as we do also, is a triune God.Your understanding of Phillippians 2, where Paul directly says Jesus was God, is wrong as we have pointed out.

First, Paul does NOT say Jesus is God. The Kenosis hymn says either that he had the form of a god or the form of God, BUT it distinguishes between God and Jesus, just as Jesus does.

Second, imagine that Paul had indeed said Jesus is God. Then Jesus has directly and repeatedly contradicted him. When Paul and Jesus disagree, who wins? Who is right?

Tertullian just said what we said... There is but one God, manifested in Three... Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

As I pointed out, Tertullian says Jesus and the Holy Ghost are manifestations of the Father. That is NOT the doctrine of the Trinity.

Willful elimination of evidence shown is evidence itself that you simply are holding onto a "flat earth" theology. No matter what evidence is given, you reject it.

You haven't once dealt with that list of quotes, attributed to Jesus in direct speech. You haven't once shown Jesus saying "I am God". You haven't shown the existence of the Trinity doctrine before the 4th century, just the mention of Father, Son and HG together.

Your interpretation is so woefully wrong because it is a known fact that his statements are given as evidence of the Trinity and not against it.

That, with great respect, is nonsense of purest ray serene.

Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” ─ Jesus says he's not God.

John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me” ─ Jesus says he's subject to the Father, just as he had been in heaven.

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” ─ Jesus says the Father is the only true God and that he Jesus is his servant and envoy.

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” ─ Jesus says that the Father is God and that he Jesus worships the Father.

And so on through the many other examples in #35 and #46.

Please share where the Bible says it is a mystery? It speaks of mysteries but not that one.

The bible never mentions a Trinity, so it never has to say that the Trinity is a mystery. It's the doctrine of the Trinity, that the church in the 4th century developed and then had to call a 'mystery'. (Had they gone with Tertullian, it wouldn't have been a mystery: the Son and the HG would simply be manifestations of the one God ─ just as in the Tanakh the ruach is the manifestation of Yahweh. But that's not what the Trinity doctrine says.)

You see, you are a spirit, that has a soul and live in a body. A triune being--no mystery although God is fathomless.

We've been through this. Ken = body + soul + spirit. Given that each exists in a positive quantity, none of the three is 100% of Ken, only the combination. That does NOT parallel the Trinity doctrine.

"You cannot equate The Word, who was God,and the risen Lord who received back his glory as God in the same manner as when he was made flesh as Jesus having he emptied himself of his God attributes and then use his parenthetical statements during that time on the earth as evidence.

I hadn't realized Jesus made two kinds of statements, mistaken, misleading ones, and true ones. Tell me, because this is self-evidently a major point ─ what test will tell us which of Jesus' statements are "parenthetical" and which are the good oil? Spell it out for me.

Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

First, they didn't call him Immanuel, they called him Jesus. Second, he was God's envoy amongst them.

John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. (I think the Jews cleary understood what Jesus said)

He said God was his Father. He never said he was the equal of God. On the contrary, as you can see from my quotes above, he said he was the envoy of the Father.

John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM [He], you will die in your sins.”

Read the whole passage. All he's saying there is that he came from God.

John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

That's a fudge edit. The whole passage reads ─

50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it and he will be the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if any one keeps my word, he will never see death." 52 The Jews said to him, "Now we know that you have a demon. Abraham died, as did the prophets; and you say, 'If any one keeps my word, he will never taste death.' 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you claim to be?" 54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is your God. 55 But you have not known him; I know him. If I said, I do not know him, I should be a liar like you; but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad." 57 The Jews then said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
​

That is, Abraham knew I was coming, and [in heaven] I pre-existed him.

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.

This refers to Jesus' message, expounded in John 17:20-23, that everyone can be one with God.

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

That is, he who has seen the envoy has seen the king.

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

And this was so outrageously wrong that Jesus didn't deign to reply ─ or more likely was struck dumb,

Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

The Lord God says that, not Jesus.

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

 

[Kenny]

No.
No.
Put it this way:

Is the doctrine of the Trinity coherent?
No.

Absolutely is... - but to one who thinks it is foolishness.. that is understandable to wit:

" But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Do I agree?
Yes, that it's incoherent. But the church calls the Trinity 'a mystery in the true sense' and it's easy to demonstrate that that notion is also incoherent.

Oeste didn't agree and I didn't and we don't go to the same church.

Does the bible support the idea of the Trinity?
No. Jesus repeatedly denies he's God and never once claims to be God.

Aboslutely!! and I gave multiple quotes. Even the Jews said he had equated himself to be equal with God making him God. You can't change what is written.

] First, Paul does NOT say Jesus is God. The Kenosis hymn says either that he had the form of a god or the form of God, BUT it distinguishes between God and Jesus, just as Jesus does.

You can quote Kenosis hymn but I quote what the Bible said. There are hymns that are very unscripural and you can find anything to support any issue.

Second, imagine that Paul had indeed said Jesus is God. Then Jesus hasdirectly and repeatedly contradicted him. When Paul and Jesus disagree, who wins? Who is right?

Unsupported statement.

As I pointed out, Tertullian says Jesus and the Holy Ghost are manifestations of the Father. That is NOT the doctrine of the Trinity.

your play with words.

You haven't once dealt with that list of quotes, attributed to Jesus in direct speech.

Oh but I did and I quote:

"You cannot equate The Word, who was God,and the risen Lord who received back his glory as God in the same manner as when he was made flesh as Jesus having he emptied himself of his God attributes and then use his parenthetical statements during that time on the earth as evidence."

Interesting you selected quotes that supported your statement at the expense of those that don't

You haven't once shown Jesus saying "I am God". You haven't shown the existence of the Trinity doctrine before the 4th century, just the mention of Father, Son and HG together.

I have... must be another one of those "I must have missed it"

That, with great respect, is nonsense of purest ray serene.

1 Cor. 1:18 For the message about Christ's death on the cross is nonsense to those who are being lost; but for us who are being saved it is God's power.

Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” ─ Jesus says he's not God.

That doesn't say that Jesus denied he was God. Context: The man said "Teacher - human" and "Good - God". He is telling this man just what is he believing - can't be both. Psalm 23 - God is the Shepherd== Jesus said "I AM the good Sheperd" A=B B=C then A=C

John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me” ─ Jesus says he's subject to the Father, just as he had been in heaven.

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” ─ Jesus says the Father is the only true God and that he Jesus is his servant and envoy.

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” ─ Jesus says that the Father is God and that he Jesus worships the Father.

"You cannot equate The Word, who was God,and the risen Lord who received back his glory as God in the same manner as when he was made flesh as Jesus having he emptied himself of his God attributes and then use his parenthetical statements during that time on the earth as evidence."

The bible never mentions a Trinity, so it never has to say that the Trinity is a mystery.

The Bible word is Godhead and means the same thing.

We've been through this. Ken = body + soul + spirit. Given that each exists in a positive quantity, none of the three is 100% of Ken, only the combination. That does NOT parallel the Trinity doctrine.

I hadn't realized Jesus made two kinds of statements, mistaken, misleading ones, and true ones. Tell me, because this is self-evidently a major point ─ what test will tell us which of Jesus' statements are "parenthetical" and which are the good oil? Spell it out for me.

Let me spell it out to you... If I talk to you as your boss, I will speak with one type of authority. If later I am at your house, I will speak differently--each according to the time we are spending together.

What I would say in both cases would still be true but the authority is completely different. But the next time you come to work, I am your boss again. Jesus is boss again.

First, they didn't call him Immanuel, they called him Jesus. Second, he was God's envoy amongst them.

Remind me to tear out those scriptures that contradict with what you sayid.

Read the whole passage. All he's saying there is that he came from God.
That's a fudge edit. The whole passage reads ─

50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it and he will be the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if any one keeps my word, he will never see death." 52 The Jews said to him, "Now we know that you have a demon. Abraham died, as did the prophets; and you say, 'If any one keeps my word, he will never taste death.' 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you claim to be?" 54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is your God. 55 But you have not known him; I know him. If I said, I do not know him, I should be a liar like you; but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad." 57 The Jews then said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
​

That is, Abraham knew I was coming, and [in heaven] I pre-existed him.

Yes... God preexisted before Abraham.

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

LOL...

The blind leading the blind.

 

[blü 2]

" But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

I ask you yet again: why did the church consider it necessary to invent the idea of a 'mystery in the true sense' and apply it to the Trinity?

Even the Jews said he had equated himself to be equal with God making him God. You can't change what is written.

Jesus didn't say that. Paul didn't say that. The Jews in the story said that. Why do you believe them and not Jesus?

You can quote Kenosis hymn but I quote what the Bible said. There are hymns that are very unscripural and you can find anything to support any issue.

The quotes in #35 and #46 are not 'unscriptural'. And you still haven't found even one quote from Jesus saying "I am God" to offset the fifteen or more times he said, "I am not God".

your play with words.

No, I don't play with words. Tertullian's idea of the Trinity is NOT the Trinity doctrine, as you can readily tell by the fact that it's coherent.

You cannot equate The Word, who was God,and the risen Lord who received back his glory as God in the same manner as when he was made flesh as Jesus having he emptied himself of his God attributes and then use his parenthetical statements during that time on the earth as evidence."

The bible offers zero support for that.

But you didn't tell me the test for distinguishing Jesus' ignorant errors from his accurate statements.

Let's take an example: "I am the way, the truth and the life" for instance. Since a person can't be "the truth" ─ truth being an abstract concept meaning conformity with reality ─ that's clearly another of those blunders of his that you mention, yes?

If not, how can you tell?

Remind me to tear out those scriptures that contradict with what you said.

Well, you've already torn out the words of Jesus set out in #35 and #46, so why not ditch the lot? After all, a great deal of it, maybe 100%, is Jesus not knowing what he's talking about, you say.

 

[Kenny]

I ask you yet again: why did the church consider it necessary to invent the idea of a 'mystery in the true sense' and apply it to the Trinity?

I don't know how "The Church" can invent what I can read for myself in the Bible.

Jesus didn't say that. Paul didn't say that. The Jews in the story said that. Why do you believe them and not Jesus?

And therein is the problem. To fit your belief system you must create it as "a story" rather that an actual historical event.

Why should I believe you over the Jews who were there and understood?

The quotes in #35 and #46 are not 'unscriptural'. And you still haven't found even one quote from Jesus saying "I am God" to offset the fifteen or more times he said, "I am not God".

You haven't produced ONE that actually says "I AM not God".

No, I don't play with words. Tertullian's idea of the Trinity is NOT the Trinity doctrine, as you can readily tell by the fact that it's coherent.
The bible offers zero support for that.

And this after the plethora of evidence contrary to your statement.

But you didn't tell me the test for distinguishing Jesus' ignorant errors from his accurate statements.

You have created a false narrative.

Let's take an example: "I am the way, the truth and the life" for instance. Since a person can't be "the truth" ─ truth being an abstract concept meaning conformity with reality ─ that's clearly another of those blunders of his that you mention, yes?

Another of your misinterpretations:

If A=B and B=C the A=C

Deutoronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

God is a God of Truth. Jesus said He is the Truth... Jesus is God

Gen 1:7 And the LORD God (plural but one) formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Only God gives life, Jesus is the Life, Jesus is God.

Well, you've already torn out the words of Jesus set out in #35 and #46, so why not ditch the lot? After all, a great deal of it, maybe 100%, is Jesus not knowing what he's talking about, you say.

As I said....

"You cannot equate The Word, who was God,and the risen Lord who received back his glory as God in the same manner as when he was made flesh as Jesus having he emptied himself of his God attributes and then use his parenthetical statements during that time on the earth as evidence."

It ignores the very purpose He came to this earth.

 

[blü 2]

I don't know how "The Church" can invent what I can read for myself in the Bible.

Where does it say in the NT that the Holy Ghost is God?

You haven't produced ONE that actually says "I AM not God".

Fair comment. I have in fact produced THIRTEEN in which Jesus identifies God as a being separate from and higher than himself.

And you'll recall that @Trailblazer added these ─

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.​

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.​

John 14:28 You heard me say to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.

John 16:23 In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask anything of the Father, he will give it to you in my name.

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

1 John 4:12 No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.​

Which brings the total to nineteen, but I dare say there are more.

You have created a false narrative.

If it's a false narrative, its source is you. You quoted ─

"You cannot equate The Word, who was God,and the risen Lord who received back his glory as God in the same manner as when he was made flesh as Jesus having he emptied himself of his God attributes and then use his parenthetical statements during that time on the earth as evidence."
​

What does "parenthetical" mean here if not "wrong"? And if it doesn't mean "wrong", what bearing does it have on the quotes in #35 and #46?

And anyway, what test will tell us whether "I am the way, the truth and the life" is "parenthetical" or not?

We can then apply that test to the nineteen statements by Jesus that Trailblazer and I have put on the table.

God is a God of Truth. Jesus said He is the Truth... Jesus is God

God is also a god of lies:

1 Kings 22:23 Now, therefore, behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has spoken evil concerning you.”

2 Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these your prophets; the Lord has spoken evil concerning you.

Jeremiah 4:10 ... “Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem ...”

Jeremiah 20:7 O Lord, thou hast deceived me, / and I was deceived;

Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived and speak a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet

2 Thessalonians 2:11 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false.
​

So Jesus is not God ─ or else he too is a liar.

 

[Kenny]

Where does it say in the NT that the Holy Ghost is God?

Fair comment. I have in fact produced THIRTEEN in which Jesus identifies God as a being separate from and higher than himself.

And you'll recall that @Trailblazer added these ─

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.​

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.​

John 14:28 You heard me say to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.

John 16:23 In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask anything of the Father, he will give it to you in my name.

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

1 John 4:12 No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.​

Which brings the total to nineteen, but I dare say there are more.
If it's a false narrative, its source is you. You quoted ─

"You cannot equate The Word, who was God,and the risen Lord who received back his glory as God in the same manner as when he was made flesh as Jesus having he emptied himself of his God attributes and then use his parenthetical statements during that time on the earth as evidence."
​

What does "parenthetical" mean here if not "wrong"? And if it doesn't mean "wrong", what bearing does it have on the quotes in #35 and #46?

And anyway, what test will tell us whether "I am the way, the truth and the life" is "parenthetical" or not?

We can then apply that test to the nineteen statements by Jesus that Trailblazer and I have put on the table.
God is also a god of lies:

1 Kings 22:23 Now, therefore, behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has spoken evil concerning you.”

2 Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these your prophets; the Lord has spoken evil concerning you.

Jeremiah 4:10 ... “Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem ...”

Jeremiah 20:7 O Lord, thou hast deceived me, / and I was deceived;

Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived and speak a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet

2 Thessalonians 2:11 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false.
​

So Jesus is not God ─ or else he too is a liar.

Where does it say in the NT that the Holy Ghost is God?

Fair comment. I have in fact produced THIRTEEN in which Jesus identifies God as a being separate from and higher than himself.

And you'll recall that @Trailblazer added these ─

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.​

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.​

John 14:28 You heard me say to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.

John 16:23 In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask anything of the Father, he will give it to you in my name.

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

1 John 4:12 No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.​

Which brings the total to nineteen, but I dare say there are more.
If it's a false narrative, its source is you. You quoted ─

"You cannot equate The Word, who was God,and the risen Lord who received back his glory as God in the same manner as when he was made flesh as Jesus having he emptied himself of his God attributes and then use his parenthetical statements during that time on the earth as evidence."
​

What does "parenthetical" mean here if not "wrong"? And if it doesn't mean "wrong", what bearing does it have on the quotes in #35 and #46?

And anyway, what test will tell us whether "I am the way, the truth and the life" is "parenthetical" or not?

We can then apply that test to the nineteen statements by Jesus that Trailblazer and I have put on the table.
God is also a god of lies:

1 Kings 22:23 Now, therefore, behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has spoken evil concerning you.”

2 Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these your prophets; the Lord has spoken evil concerning you.

Jeremiah 4:10 ... “Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem ...”

Jeremiah 20:7 O Lord, thou hast deceived me, / and I was deceived;

Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived and speak a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet

2 Thessalonians 2:11 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false.
​

So Jesus is not God ─ or else he too is a liar.

We are going in circles here...

1 Cor 14:38 "If any of your number thinks himself a true preacher and a spiritually-minded man, let him recognise that what I have written is by divine command! As for those who don’t know it, well, we may just leave them in ignorance.t" is the appropriate answer.

 

[Oeste]

Our subject is the Church doctrine of the Trinity. If the church can admit it doesn't make sense, why not you?

I'm not aware of any church that claims the Trinity doesn't make sense. Are you referring to a Unitarian or Muslim church?

This is where the irrationality, the 'mystery', arises.

It's where scripture arises. As Ken quoted previously:

" But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

You've agreed that each of the persons (a) is distinct from the other two and simultaneously (b) is God's entirety. Therefore three persons are each God's entirety.

That's incoherent. God has three independent entireties. That's three gods.

As previously explained, 3 Gods would be Tritheism and not Trinitarianism.

The Trinity has and has always had but one Triune God. If you want 3, go to the pagans.

Each can do anything without the other two. That's three gods. 100% of God + 100% of God + 100% of God = 300% = three gods.

Again, there are no parts of a whole in Trinitarian doctrine. You really need to dump the "of" or see my prior posts 68 and 77 which specifically addressed your attempt to insert this straw man distraction.

Which is incompatible with the statement that there's just one God.

Trinitarians believe there is one God. The Trinity doctrine states there is one God. It's the skeptics who doubt and the atheists who don't believe who claim otherwise.

As the church concedes, though they call it a 'mystery', and I, using ordinary principles of reasoning and accordingly seeing no mystery, call it a nonsense, as I'd call any other incoherent claim a nonsense.

I believe "the church" as you describe it thought of "mystery" this way:

In conformity with the usage of the inspired writers of the New Testament, theologians give the name mystery to revealed truths that surpass the powers of natural reason. Mystery, therefore, in its strict theological sense is not synonymous with the incomprehensible, since all that we know is incomprehensible, i.e., not adequately comprehensible as to its inner being; nor with the unknowable, since many things merely natural are accidentally unknowable, on account of their inaccessibility, e.g., things that are future, remote, or hidden. In its strict sense a mystery is a supernatural truth, one that of its very nature lies above the finite intelligence.​

So no, "mystery" doe not mean nor is it equated with "nonsense". That is simply another unsupported construction.

Please talk me through how you see it; and if you accept that there's a mystery, please also tell me the test that will distinguish a 'mystery in the strict sense' from a nonsense.

Easy enough to do, but I'll probably wait until the weekend.

​