That Whole Homosexual--Sin Thing

[Zita]

A few things I would like to point out.

First, the sin of homosexuality is condemned all throughout the Bible, not just by one single man. The Bible spans millennia and hundreds of writers.

Second, the many books of scripture outside of the Bible also condemn the practice of homosexuality.

Third, anyone can know the truth of this or other spiritual topics by relying on the witness of the Holy Spirit.

Fourth, all of mankind being sinners is no excuse to commit sin or ignore instruction from God.

Five, it is possible for us to be forgiven of sin through the atoning sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. This includes the sins of adultery and homosexuality.

Six, you are correct that your false assumptions make no logical sense.

Lastly, abstaining from sin is not to deny oneself. We are not defined by our sins.

well I give you a A

A few things I would like to point out.

First, the sin of homosexuality is condemned all throughout the Bible, not just by one single man. The Bible spans millennia and hundreds of writers.

Second, the many books of scripture outside of the Bible also condemn the practice of homosexuality.

Third, anyone can know the truth of this or other spiritual topics by relying on the witness of the Holy Spirit.

Fourth, all of mankind being sinners is no excuse to commit sin or ignore instruction from God.

Five, it is possible for us to be forgiven of sin through the atoning sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. This includes the sins of adultery and homosexuality.

Six, you are correct that your false assumptions make no logical sense.

Lastly, abstaining from sin is not to deny oneself. We are not defined by our sins.

I didnt' say I don't make logical sense,I said it makes no logical sense cause you can't prove what God said in the bible,and I;m sticking to it no matter how many examples you gave, have a nice day

 

[Skwim]

A few things I would like to point out.

First, the sin of homosexuality is condemned all throughout the Bible, not just by one single man. The Bible spans millennia and hundreds of writers.

Excuse me, but isn't the working presumption in reading the Bible that all it's directives come from god? That bestiality is a sin, not because some Hebrew scribe decide it should be and said so, but that it was said, or at least inspired, by god?

Second, the many books of scripture outside of the Bible also condemn the practice of homosexuality.

And other than LDS members, why should anyone care?

Third, anyone can know the truth of this or other spiritual topics by relying on the witness of the Holy Spirit.

And you know this to be a fact because ________________________________________ .

Fourth, all of mankind being sinners is no excuse to commit sin or ignore instruction from God.

How about all of those ignorant of what constitutes a sin, or are ignorant of god's instructions? Seem like very acceptable excuses to me. Why wouldn't they be acceptable to you?

Five, it is possible for us to be forgiven of sin through the atoning sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. This includes the sins of adultery and homosexuality.

That's nice, I guess, but hardly meaningful to those of us who don't buy god's list of sins.

Six, you are correct that your false assumptions make no logical sense.

What's false about them?

Lastly, abstaining from sin is not to deny oneself. We are not defined by our sins.

Obviously your sins are of a whole other color, because the "sins" of a lot of people are only avoided by denying themselves. And Zita didn't say we're defined by our sins, did he. So why bring it up?

.

 

[Prestor John]

well I give you a A


I didnt' say I don't make logical sense,I said it makes no logical sense cause you can't prove what God said in the bible,and I;m sticking to it no matter how many examples you gave, have a nice day

Yet, you can't prove that He didn't say it.

We are in the same boat then, aren't we?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yet, you can't prove that He didn't say it.

We are in the same boat then, aren't we?

Nope, in such a situation the burden of proof is always upon the person making a positive claim. I can claim that I have a book written by God that refutes everything in the Bible. By your stance we would be at an impasse. In actuality I would have to prove my claim. Just as you need to provide evidence that your claim is right. Simply stating the obvious, that an outdated book of myths and superstition bans homosexuality, does not make that a fact. If you want to claim any authority to the Bible you would have to show that somehow.

 

[Zita]

Yet, you can't prove that He didn't say it.

We are in the same boat then, aren't we?

no we arent in the same boat because I don't live by it,you do

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Discrimination against homosexuals is a separate issue than abortion (in most cases). You are correct.

I find a double standard where people crow about rights for homosexuals (or heterosexuals or asexuals), which includes the right to sexual expression, without crowing about the right for humans created via sex or fertility procedures to LIVE.

And people are completely within their rights to champion whatever causes (or no causes) that they wish and leave others alone. It would be a strange thing indeed if someone felt they could try and enforce that people take up certain causes before they take up others - all because the "enforcer" deems certain causes more important. That's not, at all, how the world works... and thank goodness for that.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

So partial birth abortion is okay, then?

I'm less interested in "law and tradition, secular and religious" then in basic, decent morals: you are saying we can terminate a nine-month old foetus before "it's born"?!!!!

Something wrong with you IMHO. Something very wrong.

If you're going to get upset at people and hurl abuse, how about you do it for things people actually say?

Don't get ****ty at me for citing THE BIBLE and actual codified law when it doesn't say what you wish it said.

 

[MJFlores]

Oh, I didnt realise one gay person wouldnt have a sex change or get married. That must apply to all of them. Lets just ignore all of the straight people who wouldn't get married and all of the people who jad sex changes but prefered relationships with the sex they were changing to. At this point, you're showing your ignorance on the matter.

Yes it is strange that one person by the name of Vice Ganda can influence the gay community in the Philippines.
I think it deals with his being vocal about it and being successful in the entertainment industry
I'm pretty much sure that British gays have someone gay to follow.
It is like being the leader of the pack - but for them it is a gay pack.

So, because your money is worth less, you're better off? What about your pensioners, hows their pension? Funnily enough, we dont have a lot of filipinos retiring in the UK. Not that that would be a problem, but your example doesn't show anything other than our pensioners are richer than yours. Elder abuse in homes has been an issue but to be honest, its old news now. Things have changed, but lets not get into who's got a better country for old people because I'll start quoting your crime statistics.

£ 1.00 = P 66.90 [Philippine Peso]
£ 1.00 = $ 1.27 [US]
£ 1.00 = ¥ 140.02 [Japanese Yen]

Which is worthless? None of them are worthless.
It is about purchasing power and cost of living.
I believe it is expensive to be in the UK than to be in the Philippines
Cost of living in the Philippines: Your guide

I believe, that the elderly abuse in the United Kingdom is very recent
I have heard that it happened in the past 3 years ago but it is still continuing.

Mona Cliffe Residential Home
Address: Blackstone Edge Old Rd, Littleborough OL15 0JW, United Kingdom

Published on May 7, 2019

That is why in the Philippines our parents when they grow old, we do not send them at the Home for the Aged.
They stay with us until they are no more.

Proverbs 23:22 New International Version (NIV)
Saying 17
Listen to your father, who gave you life,
and do not despise your mother when she is old.

 

[Dan Mellis]

This is the reality of things in my part of the globe.
You live in a temperate climate, a place with 4 seasons
different from where I live - a tropical climate, with 2 well defined seasons - wet and dry

Taiwan recently allowed gay marriage.
Most of the world still is straight

Where Is It Illegal To Be Gay?
LGBT rights by country or territory - Wikipedia

Now, other countries are really strict on its prohibition of that whole homosexual sin thing:
Malaysia [which was a former British colony] cracks down of gay people and enforcing its Sharia law.

Australia has also recently legalised gay marriage. Which means that the majority of developed countries now do not discriminate. Is your argument that the weather makes a difference? I'd say that its the areas where religion and bigotry has lost its grip that have legalised homosexuality and gay marriage. The fact that most of the world does not allow gay marriage is in no way indicative of what is right. If most of the world jumped off a cliff....

There are a lot of former british territories. Unfortunately, when we withdrew from those territories we left their economies in ruins and they have been hampered developmentwise - look at africa and india. However, I don't see how thats relevant to whether or not being gay should be legal? That seems like another crack at western culture to be honest.

Whenever we have a conversation, we seem to get to this point where I struggle to hold a conversation with you because you start to get straight up offensive. Please, if you want to have this discussion, stop the implied attacks. It doesn't help you.

 

[Dan Mellis]

OK.

"First off, God is not ineffable, unknowable or supernatural.

He is a real person with parts and passions and He operates according to established spiritual, natural and universal Laws."

Various books of scripture contain written accounts of human beings interacting with and coming to know God.

They also describe God's attributes, character, authority, motivation and adherence to eternal Laws.

"Second, coming to know Him, or more about Him, does not "exalt" anyone.

We all sin and come short of the glory of God."

The scriptures explain that all mortals are imperfect and that even those who come to know God still fall short and can continue to displease Him.

"Third, the scriptures claim that it was God who created us in His image, so I have more than my own personal bias to support that idea (unlike you)."

This is self-explanatory.

"So...other than your baseless ad hominem attack against me...you offer...what?

Not even a single comment about the content of my post."

If you read his post to me you would see that it was just a personal attack that ignored what I had said originally.

"God made Adam and Eve, sealed them together as husband and wife and then commanded them to multiply because doing those things fulfills their purpose in this life and progresses them through eternity."

Again, this account is contained in the scriptures.

"Anything less will result in exactly that.

Less."

Logically, anything less than what God has commanded will result in less positive results.

I didn't mean to reference the ad hominem argument - I don't know what the deal with that is and I couldn't say if it was ad hominem or not. I'll stay out of that

Otherwise, the evidence you use is scripture which is entirely circular. The bible and scripture is not evidence for the claim, it is the claim.

 

[Dan Mellis]

Yes it is strange that one person by the name of Vice Ganda can influence the gay community in the Philippines.
I think it deals with his being vocal about it and being successful in the entertainment industry
I'm pretty much sure that British gays have someone gay to follow.
It is like being the leader of the pack - but for them it is a gay pack.

£ 1.00 = P 66.90 [Philippine Peso]
£ 1.00 = $ 1.27 [US]
£ 1.00 = ¥ 140.02 [Japanese Yen]

Which is worthless? None of them are worthless.
It is about purchasing power and cost of living.
I believe it is expensive to be in the UK than to be in the Philippines
Cost of living in the Philippines: Your guide

I believe, that the elderly abuse in the United Kingdom is very recent
I have heard that it happened in the past 3 years ago but it is still continuing.

Mona Cliffe Residential Home
Address: Blackstone Edge Old Rd, Littleborough OL15 0JW, United Kingdom

Published on May 7, 2019

That is why in the Philippines our parents when they grow old, we do not send them at the Home for the Aged.
They stay with us until they are no more.

Proverbs 23:22 New International Version (NIV)
Saying 17
Listen to your father, who gave you life,
and do not despise your mother when she is old.

View attachment 29203

Apologies, I think you misunderstood. I didnt mean worthless, I said worth less as in its worth is less than the pound.

Thats fine, there are gay icons here too but you've strayed from your point. You used that example because he said he didn't want to be married or have a sex change. Even if every gay person in the Philippines had him as their personal hero, that doesnt mean none of them want to get married. My hero is corey taylor, the lead singer of slipknot, who has been known to slam staplers into his head. I do not want to do that, but he's still an example to follow in terms of coming from a very difficult background and making something of himself.

Is your point that because he doesnt want a sex change or marriage, then all filipino gays don't either?

 

[MJFlores]

Apologies, I think you misunderstood. I didnt mean worthless, I said worth less as in its worth is less than the pound.

Thats fine, there are gay icons here too but you've strayed from your point. You used that example because he said he didn't want to be married or have a sex change. Even if every gay person in the Philippines had him as their personal hero, that doesnt mean none of them want to get married. My hero is corey taylor, the lead singer of slipknot, who has been known to slam staplers into his head. I do not want to do that, but he's still an example to follow in terms of coming from a very difficult background and making something of himself.

Is your point that because he doesnt want a sex change or marriage, then all filipino gays don't either?

Sex change is expensive
Sex change is dangerous
Sex change is kinda traumatic

Let us listen from the boys....

 

[Dan Mellis]

Sex change is expensive
Sex change is dangerous
Sex change is kinda traumatic

Let us listen from the boys....

Cancer treatment is expensive
Cancer treatment is dangerous
Cancer treatment is kinda traumatic


Religous legislation is expensive
Religious legislation is dangerous
Religious legislation is kinda traumatic

At the end of the day, a sex change is the medical treatment of a disorder which is fairly well understood called gender dysphoria. Can this be misdiagnosed? Sure. Can some people regret their change? Absolutely. Does this mean that its wrong to offer sex changes to those who are diagnosed with gender dysphoria? Absolutely not.

These people live in misery for their entire adult lives and the only way they can achieve some sense of normality is by chnaging their sex. Why do you think suicide rates are so high amongst the trans community? Its an exceptionally difficult and stressful thing to live through, and coupled with discrimination and outright hostility it can be too much to live through.

Its about time we made it easier for trans people. If not easier to get the surgery, then definitely easier when they have had it.

 

[MJFlores]

Cancer treatment is expensive
Cancer treatment is dangerous
Cancer treatment is kinda traumatic


Religous legislation is expensive
Religious legislation is dangerous
Religious legislation is kinda traumatic

At the end of the day, a sex change is the medical treatment of a disorder which is fairly well understood called gender dysphoria. Can this be misdiagnosed? Sure. Can some people regret their change? Absolutely. Does this mean that its wrong to offer sex changes to those who are diagnosed with gender dysphoria? Absolutely not.

These people live in misery for their entire adult lives and the only way they can achieve some sense of normality is by chnaging their sex. Why do you think suicide rates are so high amongst the trans community? Its an exceptionally difficult and stressful thing to live through, and coupled with discrimination and outright hostility it can be too much to live through.

Its about time we made it easier for trans people. If not easier to get the surgery, then definitely easier when they have had it.

I believe people deserve what they ask for.

Is there such thing as religious legislation?
Probably in UK since you have the Church of England there.
In the Philippines it is entirely the opposite

Gender reassignment capital of the world is Bangkok Thailand
This is where gay Filipinos have their peter turned into virginia
There is no law prohibiting them to transform into the opposite sex

However in another part of Asia, south of the Philippines - in Indonesia

 

[Dan Mellis]

I believe people deserve what they ask for.

Is there such thing as religious legislation?
Probably in UK since you have the Church of England there.
In the Philippines it is entirely the opposite

Gender reassignment capital of the world is Bangkok Thailand
This is where gay Filipinos have their peter turned into virginia
There is no law prohibiting them to transform into the opposite sex

View attachment 29207

However in another part of Asia, south of the Philippines - in Indonesia

I maybe should have said religiously motivated legislation, such as the prevention of gay marriage and gender reassignment.

If there's no law preventing gender reassignment in the Philippines and you're fine with people doing it, I really don't know why you've brought it up.

You've gone from saying being gay is wrong, to posting videos about your government officials encouraging gay people to come out. How does this support your position?

By the way, changing gender does not always mean you were gay to begin with. It has nothing to do with sexuality or who youre attracted to.

 

[Dan Mellis]

When it's born and draws breath. Law and tradition, both secular and religious, are very clear.

*sucks air through teeth* that is a difficult one right there. I'm firmly pro-choice but there comes a point where you have a child inside you that can feel and think and even move to rhythm. At some point, it turns from abortion to literally killing an unborn baby.I don't know where the line is or if we can even be clear on the foetus/baby delineation. I think in the UK the limit 16 weeks, which rightly errs on the side of caution while still offering a choice to most women.

After all, late stage miscarriages are called stillbirths, not miscarriages.

 

[MJFlores]

I maybe should have said religiously motivated legislation, such as the prevention of gay marriage and gender reassignment.

If there's no law preventing gender reassignment in the Philippines and you're fine with people doing it, I really don't know why you've brought it up.

You've gone from saying being gay is wrong, to posting videos about your government officials encouraging gay people to come out. How does this support your position?

By the way, changing gender does not always mean you were gay to begin with. It has nothing to do with sexuality or who youre attracted to.

Religion motivated legislation is a decadent past of the 1700's Philippines
No such thing occurs today
The Philippine president would not allow that
specially when he was molested by a priest in his teens.

Sure being gay is wrong
I won't be gay and do not aspire to be gay
Gay people are funny and
I respect people who want to be gay
But it is not my cup of tea
Filipinos are tolerant of gays that is why
the Philippines is the 10th gay friendly country in the world
I know homosexuality is wrong but if people want it -
Who am I to prevent them from being gay?
It is better for people to come out if they are gay
At least they are real and you know who is gay or not

 

[Dan Mellis]

Religion motivated legislation is a decadent past of the 1700's Philippines
No such thing occurs today
The Philippine president would not allow that
specially when he was molested by a priest in his teens.

Sure being gay is wrong
I won't be gay and do not aspire to be gay
Gay people are funny and
I respect people who want to be gay
But it is not my cup of tea
Filipinos are tolerant of gays that is why
the Philippines is the 10th gay friendly country in the world
I know homosexuality is wrong but if people want it -
Who am I to prevent them from being gay?
It is better for people to come out if they are gay
At least they are real and you know who is gay or not

While I disagree with your assessment of it being wrong, I'm glad you hold this view. I almost took issue with "gay people are funny," which is a blanket statement but I think I understand what you meant.

However, the fact that gay marriage is still illegal is a hangover of religious legislation - as is their stance on abortion law.

 

[BilliardsBall]

And people are completely within their rights to champion whatever causes (or no causes) that they wish and leave others alone. It would be a strange thing indeed if someone felt they could try and enforce that people take up certain causes before they take up others - all because the "enforcer" deems certain causes more important. That's not, at all, how the world works... and thank goodness for that.

Huh? What do you mean "enforce"? This nation of America is rife with abortion on demand, porn, drugs, infidelity, entropy and death.

If "enforce" means "speak about the issues and vote my conscience..." you are mistaken in your word definition.

 

[BilliardsBall]

If you're going to get upset at people and hurl abuse, how about you do it for things people actually say?

Don't get ****ty at me for citing THE BIBLE and actual codified law when it doesn't say what you wish it said.

1) Show me where the Bible discusses partial birth abortion, it doesn't.

2) Don't goalpost shift to discuss a book that you say is a made-up book of myths to preach at me, until you are willing to be accountable for the horrors you promote, like partial birth abortion.

I apologize for saying "something is wrong with you". All of us have something wrong IMHO, sin. But your moral compass seems rather broken to me!