That Whole Homosexual--Sin Thing

[Subduction Zone]

I believe that statement is illogical and again relies on feeling.

-That is because once again you are reasoning using your feelings. You should try logic sometime.

 

[columbus]

I believe that is why I prefer logic. I t works a lot better than feelings.

Logic only works when you start with good evidence.
Otherwise, the abstract concepts of logic can lead you to completely wrong conclusions.
Tom

 

[columbus]

I believe I care.

I also believe that you care.
About your own religious ideology, but not me.

Tom

 

[Skwim]

I believe this is not Hell. Hell is inner not outer.

Matthew 25:30 (KJV)
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

"The phrase "(there shall be) weeping and gnashing of teeth" (in the original Greek ὁ κλαυθμὸς καὶ ὁ βρυγμὸς τῶν ὀδόντων) appears seven times in the New Testament as a description on the fate of the unrighteous ones at the conclusion of the age."
Source: Wikipedia​

Now my impression is that "the fate of the unrighteous ones at the conclusion of the age" would be hell. Where else would they end up?

Joseph Benson's Commentary of the Old and New Testaments
Matthew 25:30. And cast ye the unprofitable servant — Who has so wickedly abused my goodness; into outer darkness — The darkness which is without the heavenly city, even the horrible darkness of hell. There, instead of the light and joy possessed by those who are admitted to the marriage- supper of the Lamb, shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth — Through the worm that dieth not, and the fire that is not quenched.


George Haydock's Catholic Bible Commentary
[Matthew 25:30] The foregoing parables manifestly tend to excite in us great watchfulness, under the just apprehension of the strict account which hereafter we must give of our respective talents. Jesus, therefore, naturally concludes these parables with a description of that awful day which is to succeed the final reckoning, and which will unalterably fix our abode either in eternal happiness, or in eternal misery.​

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[Neutral Name]

In a post in another thread it was mentioned that god considers gay sex a sin. Nothing new. Everyone knows it, but it got me wondering why. What is so wrong about an act, which only brings pleasure and hurts no one, that god considers it a sin? So much so, in fact, that if one engages in homosexual sex god will bar such an unrepentant or ignorant sinner from Heaven.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (ESV)
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous[a] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
​

While, as I understand it, it's no sin to have a homosexual attachment to someone, as long as it isn't lustful I guess, it does imply that once pee pees touch or hoo-has meet it's all over. Think of it. Let the sexual organs of two homosexuals get as close as possible while still leaving breathing space between them and you're home free. BUT let the two touch for just a fraction of a second and god will have picked up on it and punched your ticket to hell.

I know the Bible doesn't explain why god detests homosexual sex in particular---although "denial" does come to mind---but shouldn't there be an obvious reason for it? Or does it all come down to invoking the old "God Works In Mysterious Ways" rationalization?


In any case, let's hear it people! The Reason God Detests Homosexual Sex Is BECAUSE:____________________________________________ .
(And "because It's icky" is not an acceptable answer.)

.

Check the book Leviticus in the Old Testament. I do not believe that God gave it to Moses as was said. It was actually written by the Sumerians a thousand years before Leviticus. Somebody decided the rules and everyone followed. I personally believe that God loves love. If God is a God of love then "it" (Spirits are not male or female) would rather two women love each other or two men love each other than that a man and woman hate each other but stay together for convenience. This is just one of the many, many reasons I became a Pantheist.

 

[Skwim]

Check the book Leviticus in the Old Testament. I do not believe that God gave it to Moses as was said. It was actually written by the Sumerians a thousand years before Leviticus. Somebody decided the rules and everyone followed. I personally believe that God loves love. If God is a God of love then "it" (Spirits are not male or female) would rather two women love each other or two men love each other than that a man and woman hate each other but stay together for convenience. This is just one of the many, many reasons I became a Pantheist.

Whatever reason was you became a pantheist it's far better than remaining a Christian, if that's what you were.

.

 

[Dan Mellis]

What do you discriminate against? Do you approve of pedophilia or do you DISCRIMINATE against the sin? Do you DISCRIMINATE against Christians who teach that gay sex is a sin?

Anyone who has a moral framework DISCRIMINATES, so please spare those of us who don't approve of gay marriage. Unless you want to be Bibliophobes and DISCRIMINATE against Christian believers.

And then you'd have to label God as a homophobe also.

If god existed, he'd be a homophobe, yes. A closeted homosexual maybe considering he 'created' gay sex.

Yes, I discriminate against peadophiles and against bigots (christian or otherwise). That's because it negatively impacts another person. Gay marriage and consensual gay sex does not, so it would be immoral of me to discriminate againstthose who practice it.

Let's not try and equate gays with paedophiles - that is a discussion I won't grace with a response.

 

[Dan Mellis]

We have different beliefs regarding wellbeing and social metrics. Eugenics, for example, hey--let's kill all the beautiful Down Syndrome babies. Awful!

I'm not leaving the USA soon.

Ah, that must explain the crime and poverty rates. Genetically curing downs syndrome does not equal killing babies. It edits out a life limiting disease - which isnt to say we shouldnt treat those who have it with any less respect.

I dont know of any developed countries post 40's that practice eugenics.

For the record, I think aborting a foetus because it has downs is entirely wrong

 

[Spartan]

If god existed, he'd be a homophobe, yes. A closeted homosexual maybe considering he 'created' gay sex.

Yes, I discriminate against peadophiles and against bigots (christian or otherwise). That's because it negatively impacts another person. Gay marriage and consensual gay sex does not, so it would be immoral of me to discriminate againstthose who practice it.

Let's not try and equate gays with paedophiles - that is a discussion I won't grace with a response.

The point is that you discriminate, as do Christians and Jews, etc. And without the Biblical God you have no objective basis to claim gay sex / marriage is acceptable.

 

[Dan Mellis]

The point is that you discriminate, as do Christians and Jews, etc. And without the Biblical God you have no objective basis to claim gay sex / marriage is acceptable.

No, the point is that the view you're offering is harmful. I accepted for the sake of argument that I discriminate against fundamentalist christians but, in truth, I'd never fire one from a job or stop them getting married when I found out about their beliefs. I disagree with their belief system entirely and I find it abhorrent at times, and I try to reduce the number of children indocrinated into that culture, but that isnt the same as actively discriminating.

The biblical god does not offer objectivity! The idea of biblical morality is entirely dependant on "gods" subjective moral code. I'd argue that there's no such thing as truly objective morality - the goal is (or should be) to do as little harm as possible which is a subjective one. We can objectively evaluate our actions against that goal, but our morality is ultimately subjective.

 

[Spartan]

No, the point is that the view you're offering is harmful. I accepted for the sake of argument that I discriminate against fundamentalist christians but, in truth, I'd never fire one from a job or stop them getting married when I found out about their beliefs. I disagree with their belief system entirely and I find it abhorrent at times, and I try to reduce the number of children indocrinated into that culture, but that isnt the same as actively discriminating.

Nonsense. And it's not "my" view, but the view of the Creator. You approve of a lifestyle that God Himself finds abhorrent.

Your subjective morality is at odds with God's objective moral code. I cannot view your anti-biblical, carnal, moral beliefs in a positive light.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The point is that you discriminate, as do Christians and Jews, etc. And without the Biblical God you have no objective basis to claim gay sex / marriage is acceptable.

Sure you do. If it doesn't harm anyone, it's acceptable. Pretty simple.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Nonsense. And it's not "my" view, but the view of the Creator. You approve of a lifestyle that God Himself finds abhorrent.

Your subjective morality is at odds with God's objective moral code. I cannot view your anti-biblical, carnal, moral beliefs in a positive light.

Which means that it's subjective, rather than objective.

 

[Spartan]

Which means that it's subjective, rather than objective.

Only in your mind.

 

[Spartan]

Sure you do. If it doesn't harm anyone, it's acceptable. Pretty simple.

Homosexual sin - No harm?

A number of reasons it's harmful. First, "gay pride" (two sins). They flaunt it in our faces and try to legitimize it. You don't hear of "adultery pride" parades or "necrophilia pride" parades do you? But even if there were we'd take an equally stellar stance against those. We don't want to hear about it.

Second, most homosexuals who claim to be Christian try to persuade others it's not a sin, leading many (many) into perdition. We don't want to see even one soul lost.

Third, most homosexuals distort the scriptures in some fashion or another in order to try to justify their sin. The distort who Jesus is (saying he's not God so he never spoke out against gay sex sin); they make lengthly arguments against Leviticus, Romans 1:26-27, I Corinthians 6:9-10, etc. Generally, they attack the Word of God and thus attack God himself. We defend the Word and God.

Fourth: Sin is a reproach to individuals and nations and brings God's disfavor on men and nations. Read Deuteronomy chapter 28 to see the curses of disobedience.

Fifth, they attack the Sons and Daughters of God when we stand up for the truth of God's Word. They call us bigots, homophobes, and all manner of names because we disagree with their stance.

Sixth, they push their illicit agenda into every corner of America. Suing the Boy Scouts and anyone else who disagrees with them. They try and sometimes succeed in pushing their gay agenda in elementary schools and elsewhere where it doesn't belong. Nine year old children shouldn't have to hear that Billy's daddy is doing another guy, or that it's ok to do it. They push their agenda in our faces until we're quite sick of it. We don't need to know which way people perform sex acts.

Seventh: (need I go on?) They (and heterosexual sinners) cost taxpayers untold billions in unnecessary health care costs to treat AIDS and other diseases they give to each other. It costs us all money out of our pockets.

And eighth: They refuse to repent of it, making their own salvation and those who they lead astray a serious question mark.

And there's more but that's for starters.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Homosexual sin - No harm?

You apparently want to judge homosexuality as "sinful" and "wrong" right from the get-go, I guess because you think you have to do what you think God wants?

Anyway, let's examine your claims of harm .... And let's leave out your branding of homosexuality and pride as "sinful" for the purpose of this discussion, because those are just preconceived notions based on the words of ancient goat herders that are irrelevant to the purpose of this discussion about harm.

A number of reasons it's harmful. First, "gay pride" (two sins). They flaunt it in our faces and try to legitimize it. You don't hear of "adultery pride" parades or "necrophilia pride" parades do you? But even if there were we'd take an equally stellar stance against those. We don't want to hear about it.

How does that actually harm you? Do you start bleeding uncontrollably when something happens that you don't agree with? You die or something? What harm comes to you when people have gay pride parades?

Necrophilia pride, really? Let's not make this ridiculous.

Second, most homosexuals who claim to be Christian try to persuade others it's not a sin, leading many (many) into perdition. We don't want to see even one soul lost.

First you'd have to demonstrate that there is a God, that there are souls (and that they can be "lost") and that such a god thinks that homosexuality is wrong.

Third, most homosexuals distort the scriptures in some fashion or another in order to try to justify their sin. The distort who Jesus is (saying he's not God so he never spoke out against gay sex sin); they make lengthly arguments against Leviticus, Romans 1:26-27, I Corinthians 6:9-10, etc. Generally, they attack the Word of God and thus attack God himself. We defend the Word and God.

I've yet to meet a Christian who has not distorted scriptures in some fashion to make them say what they already believe.

First, you Christians need to get your interpretations in order amongst yourselves, before you get to start telling the rest of us about what is "right" and "wrong." So in that regard, homosexuals aren’t doing anything that many other Christians aren’t already doing.

For this claim to make any sense, you'd first have to demonstrate that the words of ancient goat herders (aka the Bible) are actually the words of the god you worship.

Fourth: Sin is a reproach to individuals and nations and brings God's disfavor on men and nations. Read Deuteronomy chapter 28 to see the curses of disobedience.

This is another claim that needs to demonstrated, rather than just asserted.

Plus, you already used “sin” as one of your earlier points against homosexuality.

Fifth, they attack the Sons and Daughters of God when we stand up for the truth of God's Word. They call us bigots, homophobes, and all manner of names because we disagree with their stance.

So? They (and I) don’t think what you’re pushing is “the truth of God’s word.”

But if you are forcing “God’s Word” on them, they have every right to push back and challenge you. Do you think they shouldn’t have that right?

I have to ask about this one … so you think your feelings about being called out when you tell people they’re dirty, illicit sinners somehow constitutes some kind of harm and not only that, outweighs the feelings of others that you have branded as dirty, illicit sinners? And you say that with a straight face?

Sixth, they push their illicit agenda into every corner of America. Suing the Boy Scouts and anyone else who disagrees with them. They try and sometimes succeed in pushing their gay agenda in elementary schools and elsewhere where it doesn't belong. Nine year old children shouldn't have to hear that Billy's daddy is doing another guy, or that it's ok to do it. They push their agenda in our faces until we're quite sick of it. We don't need to know which way people perform sex acts.

What’s a “gay agenda” and how is it harmful?

You know some of those 9 year olds will have gay parents and some of them will grow up to be gay themselves. Why should they be left out of the conversation because it makes you personally uncomfortable?

Do you think not talking about the existence of gay people makes them go away? Gay people exist and you’re just going to have to deal with it.

Seventh: (need I go on?) They (and heterosexual sinners) cost taxpayers untold billions in unnecessary health care costs to treat AIDS and other diseases they give to each other. It costs us all money out of our pockets.

Everyone does this, regardless of sexual orientation. STDs don’t exist only in the homosexual community or anything like that.

And eighth: They refuse to repent of it, making their own salvation and those who they lead astray a serious question mark.

Again, so what? How does that harm anyone? I’m talking like, real world harm. Not some imagined harm that may happen after we die.

If God is so worried about people’s salvation, then he should take care of it himself.

And there's more but that's for starters.

Do you have any examples that actually cause actual harm to anyone beyond just having their feelings hurt?

 

[Spartan]

You apparently want to judge homosexuality as "sinful" and "wrong" right from the get-go, I guess because you think you have to do what you think God wants?

Anyway, let's examine your claims of harm .... And let's leave out your branding of homosexuality and pride as "sinful" for the purpose of this discussion, because those are just preconceived notions based on the words of ancient goat herders that are irrelevant to the purpose of this discussion about harm.

How does that actually harm you? Do you start bleeding uncontrollably when something happens that you don't agree with? You die or something? What harm comes to you when people have gay pride parades?

Necrophilia pride, really? Let's not make this ridiculous.

First you'd have to demonstrate that there is a God, that there are souls (and that they can be "lost") and that such a god thinks that homosexuality is wrong.

I've yet to meet a Christian who has not distorted scriptures in some fashion to make them say what they already believe.

First, you Christians need to get your interpretations in order amongst yourselves, before you get to start telling the rest of us about what is "right" and "wrong." So in that regard, homosexuals aren’t doing anything that many other Christians aren’t already doing.

For this claim to make any sense, you'd first have to demonstrate that the words of ancient goat herders (aka the Bible) are actually the words of the god you worship.

This is another claim that needs to demonstrated, rather than just asserted.

Plus, you already used “sin” as one of your earlier points against homosexuality.

So? They (and I) don’t think what you’re pushing is “the truth of God’s word.”

But if you are forcing “God’s Word” on them, they have every right to push back and challenge you. Do you think they shouldn’t have that right?

I have to ask about this one … so you think your feelings about being called out when you tell people they’re dirty, illicit sinners somehow constitutes some kind of harm and not only that, outweighs the feelings of others that you have branded as dirty, illicit sinners? And you say that with a straight face?

What’s a “gay agenda” and how is it harmful?

You know some of those 9 year olds will have gay parents and some of them will grow up to be gay themselves. Why should they be left out of the conversation because it makes you personally uncomfortable?

Do you think not talking about the existence of gay people makes them go away? Gay people exist and you’re just going to have to deal with it.

Everyone does this, regardless of sexual orientation. STDs don’t exist only in the homosexual community or anything like that.

Again, so what? How does that harm anyone? I’m talking like, real world harm. Not some imagined harm that may happen after we die.

If God is so worried about people’s salvation, then he should take care of it himself.

Do you have any examples that actually cause actual harm to anyone beyond just having their feelings hurt?

I'll stick with the validity of what I posted. A few things, though...

Will gay parents teach a child that gay sex is a sin that needs to be repented of? How many gay children will be taught that the Bible is not a good reference for sexual morality? How many children will be lost because they won't be taken to a real, Biblically-based church?

How many active gays will be lost because they won't repent of their same sex sins? What did Jesus say? "Unless you repent, you too will perish" (Luke 13:3).

How many gays and fornicators and adulterers have died due to AIDS and other diseases because of their sexual immorality?

And you ask, about gay sex, "How does that harm anyone?" That's laughable if it weren't so sad.

 

[leov]

In a post in another thread it was mentioned that god considers gay sex a sin. Nothing new. Everyone knows it, but it got me wondering why. What is so wrong about an act, which only brings pleasure and hurts no one, that god considers it a sin? So much so, in fact, that if one engages in homosexual sex god will bar such an unrepentant or ignorant sinner from Heaven.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (ESV)
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous[a] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
​

While, as I understand it, it's no sin to have a homosexual attachment to someone, as long as it isn't lustful I guess, it does imply that once pee pees touch or hoo-has meet it's all over. Think of it. Let the sexual organs of two homosexuals get as close as possible while still leaving breathing space between them and you're home free. BUT let the two touch for just a fraction of a second and god will have picked up on it and punched your ticket to hell.

I know the Bible doesn't explain why god detests homosexual sex in particular---although "denial" does come to mind---but shouldn't there be an obvious reason for it? Or does it all come down to invoking the old "God Works In Mysterious Ways" rationalization?


In any case, let's hear it people! The Reason God Detests Homosexual Sex Is BECAUSE:__________God wnted to cultivate physicaly and spiritually healthy nation from seed of Abraham.______They needed a lot of healthy children, less hedonism
____________________________ .
(And "because It's icky" is not an acceptable answer.)

.

 

[Skwim]

In any case, let's hear it people! The Reason God Detests Homosexual Sex Is BECAUSE:__________God wnted to cultivate physicaly and spiritually healthy nation from seed of Abraham.______They needed a lot of healthy children, less hedonism

Then why wasn't he simply anti-homosexual, rather than specifically anti-homosexual sex? Either way homosexuals weren't about to reproduce and give him the "healthy children" he was looking for.

Nope, I'm afraid your reason here doesn't work.

.

 

[leov]

Then why wasn't he simply anti-homosexual, rather than specifically anti-homosexual sex? Either way homosexuals weren't about to reproduce and give him the "healthy children" he was looking for.

Nope, I'm afraid your reason here doesn't work.

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reason was infections, one homosexual was able to infect a lot of people given low level of sanitation they had. the same was with dietary laws except since danger (like fish poisoning, pork parasites) involved only one person there no panishment in the law. homosexuals were deadly in hot desert....