The 10...Er, 613 Commandments

[Kemosloby]

Well, considering they are all dead, yeah I have more say right now.

I know you must be joking.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It helps to know Koine Greek. It's not "end" of the law, but rather "goal" of the law. Move away from the KJV.

A very insightful response ^ above ^.
I often use KJV because it can be a common basis to start to reason since most seem to know about the KJV.
True, KJV does use some archaic English, and we can consult with a Greek Interlinear translation.
Yes, agree, the common Greek of the 1st century was Koine Greek.
I do see in a Greek Interlinear at Romans 10:4; end for the law Christ into righteousness to every the (one) believing.
So, to me, it can be true that the end of the law was as you mentioned "goal" of the law.
( once a person reaches the goal post his objective is completed )
Goal in the sense Christ's goal too was a priesthood which is superior in that it is his forever position - Hebrews chapter 7 - whereas the Constitution of the Mosaic Law was temporary in nature.
Any thoughts about Hebrews 7:12 or Colossians 2:14

 

[Neo Deist]

Any thoughts about Hebrews 7:12 or Colossians 2:14

Hebrews chapter 7 is talking about the priesthood, and how the priests traditionally came from the Tribe of Levi. If a priest rose from another tribe, then the law regarding Levites only would have to be changed. Jesus, having come from the Tribe of Judah (though not through Joseph), if recognized as a priest, would ultimately mean that Hebrew law would change to accommodate him. As best that I can remember, neither the Pharisees nor Sadducees recognized him as such.

Colossians chapter 2 is talking about being brought up in Christ, and acknowledging that Jesus' blood sacrifice paid the price for the legality of sin under God's eyes. Unfortunately, this concept contradicts the OT verses of Deuteronomy 24:16 and Ezekiel 18:20. Thus a major dispute between Hebrew writings and Koine Greek ones.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Hebrews chapter 7 is talking about the priesthood, and how the priests traditionally came from the Tribe of Levi. If a priest rose from another tribe, then the law regarding Levites only would have to be changed. Jesus, having come from the Tribe of Judah (though not through Joseph), if recognized as a priest, would ultimately mean that Hebrew law would change to accommodate him. As best that I can remember, neither the Pharisees nor Sadducees recognized him as such.
Colossians chapter 2 is talking about being brought up in Christ, and acknowledging that Jesus' blood sacrifice paid the price for the legality of sin under God's eyes. Unfortunately, this concept contradicts the OT verses of Deuteronomy 24:16 and Ezekiel 18:20. Thus a major dispute between Hebrew writings and Koine Greek ones.

Thank you for your reply.

Through Mary's line Jesus' inherited his fleshly rights. Through Joseph Jesus' inherited his legal rights.

To me, the ' blotting out ' (Colossians 2:14) is in connection to Deuteronomy 21:23. To me, the reality or legality of the law belongs to the Christ - Colossians 2:16-23. Jesus' body did Not remain hung all night, and Jesus was forsaken for the moment according to Isaiah 54:7. Each dies for their own sins according to 2 Chronicles 25:4 B.
Since Jesus was taking our place, then he was the 'one' who died according to our sins.
Doesn't Ezekiel 18:19 agree with Deuteronomy 16:20 in that Jesus surely lives.
Any thoughts with comparing Deuteronomy 24:16 to both Jeremiah 31:30 and Ezekiel 18:4.
Also, children's teeth, so to speak, can be 'set on edge' due to their father's sins - Ezekiel 18:2, but that does Not mean the children are responsible even through they could be suffering because of father's or forefather's wrongs.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The Bible (OT) actually has 613 commandments, not 10.


22:40 - On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Even after all of that, Jesus still refers to the OT and how it is binding. So this begs the question:

Are Christians subject to 613 biblical laws or 7?

Interesting post.

In regards to what Jesus taught I see two key instances where He clearly deviates from the Mosaic law.

(1) Changing the law of marriage

"They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery." Matthew 19:7-9

(2) Changing the law of the Sabbath

"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath." Mark 2:27-28

Then we have Paul and Peter changing the law. I would argue that as apostles of Christ had the authority to abrogate the law. Jesus had led the way, but in a subtle manner and it was probably dangerous to teach this more explicitly.

Abdu'l-Baha who was one of the leaders of the Baha'i Faith indicated that the apostles of God were right to abrogate Mosaic law. This obviously won't hold much weight for a Christian, but the argument is about the very different conditions at the time of Christ and the Authority of Christ

"Now this change, these alterations and this abrogation are due to the impossibility of comparing the time of Christ with that of Moses. The conditions and requirements in the later period were entirely changed and altered. The former laws were, therefore, abrogated.


The existence of the world may be compared to that of a man, and the Prophets and Messengers of God to skillful doctors. The human being cannot remain in one condition: different maladies occur which have each a special remedy. The skillful physician does not give the same medicine to cure each disease and each malady, but he changes remedies and medicines according to the different necessities of the diseases and constitutions. One person may have a severe illness caused by fever, and the skilled doctor will give him cooling remedies; and when at some other time the condition of this person has changed, and fever is replaced by chills, without doubt the skilled doctor will discard cooling medicine and permit the use of heating drugs. This change and alteration is required by the condition of the patient and is an evident proof of the skill of the physician.


Consider, could the Law of the Old Testament be enforced at this epoch and time? No, in the name of God! it would be impossible and impracticable; therefore, most certainly God abrogated the laws of the Old Testament at the time of Christ."

Your thoughts about the biblical references would be appreciated.

Thank you

 

[paarsurrey]

The Bible (OT) actually has 613 commandments, not 10.

Christians will say that Jesus fulfilled the Law and a new covenant was created. They will quote Matthew 5:17 as proof of that. However, they fail to keep reading the rest of the chapter, and in particular the next two verses.

[NASB]
5:18 - For truly I say to you, until Heaven and Earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

5:19 - Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.

When Jesus says the "Law," he is referring to the Torah, or Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. When he says the "Prophets," he is referring to the various Books of Prophets, such as Isaiah. Very clearly he made the statement that none of the Laws should be ignored, changed or set aside. They are binding!

There is one argument that I have heard over the years that has some merit, but it comes from Judaism, not Christianity. That is the idea that Gentiles (non Jews) are not subject to the 613 Jewish laws, but rather the 7 Noahide laws. The people that Jesus was speaking to were Jewish. They would understand what he meant. Gentiles...not so much.

These are the 7 Noahide Laws:

1. Do not deny God.
2. Do not blaspheme God.
3. Do not murder.
4. Do not engage in illicit sexual relations.
5. Do not steal.
6. Do not eat from a live animal.
7. Establish courts/legal system to ensure obedience to the law.

@Tumah and @Eliab ben Benjamin, feel free to jump in here and correct any of my Jewish understanding.

Others will say that Jesus did away with the old covenant and gave Christians a new one in Matthew 22:37-39.

[NASB]
22:37 - And He said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
22:38 - This is the great and foremost commandment.
22:39 - The second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

Using these three verses, they justify their position and beliefs to ignore 603 commandments, opting for just 10 (even though only 2 are listed above). The weird thing is that Jesus never said "these are now the only commandments you must follow." If they had kept reading the same chapter, they would come to the very next verse:

22:40 - On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Even after all of that, Jesus still refers to the OT and how it is binding. So this begs the question:

Are Christians subject to 613 biblical laws or 7?

If Jesus and Mary were Jews, then they must believe and act according to Torah.
Regards