The afterlife - an argument for why the Christian God may be racist/culturalist?

[amorphous_constellation]

Think about it now, the whole of Christendom for the past 2000 years has been European specifically - a very good reason for me not to be believe it, but beyond that it subdivides even among those Europeans. If you are Calvinist style Protestant, well then, by and large only the believing Protestant peoples like the English, Germans, and Nordic peoples will be there in heaven with you. Perhaps the baptists are in that sphere, if so, that heaven will only have 200 years or so of converted African-Americans, compared to 1500-2000 years of converted Europeans now spanning the world. If you are Catholic, well then, only the western Mediterranean peoples like the Italians and Spanish, French and beside this, Amerindians of the Middle and South Americas will be there in heaven with you, but only under 500 years worth to account for the late New World conversion era. And the Irish. If you are Orthodox, well then, only the Greeks and Russians and a few other Balkan peoples will be in heaven with you.

So you see, Christan hell, as you look down into it, will sadly by and large be filled with thousands of years worth the Indonesians, Pacific Islanders, Aborigines, Native Americans, All peoples of Asia, thousands of years of Amerindian peoples, the Inuit, Africans, Middle-easterners, Indians, and heaven by and large would be European to buy out Charlemagne. Now don't you see something skewed with this picture? What's you're take on this? If only the 'believers' get into heaven, then the general breadth of history of where Christianity has resided seems to prove that is a pretty noninclusive religion.

And as an atheist, this is just another reason for me to disbelieve in it, it's just another religion, it has won over a few parts of the world, but it really is markedly still a European cultural thing. Better are religions that do not proselytize like different kinds of Paganism or Judaism. Those religions may make a claim that gods look over specific peoples, but these are only claims of different gods for different peoples, and they don't threaten the world with hellfire, or feel a need to cause it to be converted away from indigenous gods.

 

[Lyndon]

And you blame God for this?? Not the racist, culturalist Christians?? and no Christianity is not an exclusively European religion, never has been never will be.

 

[Kirran]

Christendom's never been only in Europe. There've been Christians in the Middle East and the Caucasus since almost day one, as well as in Ethiopia, the Copts in Egypt, the Nubians, the Nestorian Christians in Central Asia. More recently, Africa's almost half Christian now, Oceania, South America and North America (admittedly largely European in culture) as well as massive Christian populations in the Philippines, China, India... Plus Christian-majority countries like East Timor and assorted South Pacific nations.

And in any case, if a Christian denomination believing that only members of their sect will reach heaven is made up predominantly of people of a certain cultural group, it isn't membership of that cultural group which guarantees entry to heaven, it's membership in that denomination.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Think about it now, the whole of Christendom for the past 2000 years has been European specifically - a very good reason for me not to be believe it, but beyond that it subdivides even among those Europeans. If you are Calvinist style Protestant, well then, by and large only the believing Protestant peoples like the English, Germans, and Nordic peoples will be there in heaven with you. Perhaps the baptists are in that sphere, if so, that heaven will only have 200 years or so of converted African-Americans, compared to 1500-2000 years of converted Europeans now spanning the world. If you are Catholic, well then, only the western Mediterranean peoples like the Italians and Spanish, French and beside this, Amerindians of the Middle and South Americas will be there in heaven with you, but only under 500 years worth to account for the late New World conversion era. And the Irish. If you are Orthodox, well then, only the Greeks and Russians and a few other Balkan peoples will be in heaven with you.

So you see, Christan hell, as you look down into it, will sadly by and large be filled with thousands of years worth the Indonesians, Pacific Islanders, Aborigines, Native Americans, All peoples of Asia, thousands of years of Amerindian peoples, the Inuit, Africans, Middle-easterners, Indians, and heaven by and large would be European to buy out Charlemagne. Now don't you see something skewed with this picture? What's you're take on this? If only the 'believers' get into heaven, then the general breadth of history of where Christianity has resided seems to prove that is a pretty noninclusive religion.

And as an atheist, this is just another reason for me to disbelieve in it, it's just another religion, it has won over a few parts of the world, but it really is markedly still a European cultural thing. Better are religions that do not proselytize like different kinds of Paganism or Judaism. Those religions may make a claim that gods look over specific peoples, but these are only claims of different gods for different peoples, and they don't threaten the world with hellfire, or feel a need to cause it to be converted away from indigenous gods.

Christianity is not markedly a European cultural thing, you should look into the entire Syriac Orthodox wing of Christianity which had no place in Europe but was around lots of other parts of the world.

Christianity spread across Europe, yes, as well as North Africa and the Middle East. Islam managed to take a lot of ground in the Middle East and North Africa but Christian communities still remained.

Christianity got even as far as India, and further, even to China. It has never just been a European thing, Christianity has been all over the place from the earliest times.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

And you blame God for this?? Not the racist, culturalist Christians?? and no Christianity is not an exclusively European religion, never has been never will be.

I blame circumstance, the fact the Europeans were in the locus of influence for this thing. It has basically stayed that way for hundreds of years, thousands of years. It is not exclusively that, but has been noninclusive in the sense that it tended settle on or appeal to only certain people in certain locations for a long period of time.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Christendom's never been only in Europe. There've been Christians in the Middle East and the Caucasus since almost day one, as well as in Ethiopia, the Copts in Egypt, the Nubians, the Nestorian Christians in Central Asia. More recently, Africa's almost half Christian now, Oceania, South America and North America (admittedly largely European in culture) as well as massive Christian populations in the Philippines, China, India... Plus Christian-majority countries like East Timor and assorted South Pacific nations.

Yeah, you'd have to show me your numbers on all of that. Show me the statistical data in the population, and I'll make my own judgement, but I really doubt many of those places have much more than small minorities of it, small communities.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Christianity is not markedly a European cultural thing, you should look into the entire Syriac Orthodox wing of Christianity which had no place in Europe but was around lots of other parts of the world.

The wikipedia article has some data along the left side, under the headline "Possessions" those places are all of European control or colonialism are they not?

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Christianity spread across Europe, yes, as well as North Africa and the Middle East. Islam managed to take a lot of ground in the Middle East and North Africa but Christian communities still remained.

Christianity got even as far as India, and further, even to China. It has never just been a European thing, Christianity has been all over the place from the earliest times.

Ok, let's talk numbers. What are your numbers?

 

[amorphous_constellation]

And in any case, if a Christian denomination believing that only members of their sect will reach heaven is made up predominantly of people of a certain cultural group, it isn't membership of that cultural group which guarantees entry to heaven, it's membership in that denomination.

Right, but that still doesn't change the fact that some denominations associate with cultural groups, and in the afterlife they supposedly will see that as well. If denomination x really took off with people y, then you're going to see a lot of y beyond that version of the pearly gates.

 

[Kirran]

Yeah, you'd have to show me your numbers on all of that. Show me the statistical data in the population, and I'll make my own judgement, but I really doubt many of those places have much more than small minorities of it, small communities.

OK, sure.

40% of Africa's population is Christian - World Book Encyclopedia, 2008
10% of Egypt's population is Christian, although shrinking - Christian Post
Armenia was the world's first officially Christian nation (in 301 AD, according to the Journal of Ecclesiastical History), and is now 93% Christian
The Philippines, with a population of over 100 million, is over 90% Christian.
China is 2.3% Christian - that's around 31 million people.
Thomas the Apostle ('Doubting Thomas') introduced Christianity to India in 52 AD, and the country is currently about 2.3% Christian as well, coincidentally, constituting 24 million people.
Overall, globally, Christians in Europe make up 25.9% of the total, while those in the Americas make up 36.8%, including, of course, Latin America, and those in Asia make up 13.1%.

Does this suffice?

 

[Kirran]

Right, but that still doesn't change the fact that some denominations associate with cultural groups, and in the afterlife they supposedly will see that as well. If denomination x really took off with people y, then you're going to see a lot of y beyond that version of the pearly gates.

Yeah, certainly.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

40% of Africa's population is Christian - World Book Encyclopedia, 2008

Though I haven't researched it really, I'd raise the point that South Africa was subject to heavy colonization by Europeans. So of that 40% you might be able to make a hefty deduction with that in mind depending on the statistics.

10% of Egypt's population is Christian, although shrinking - Christian Post

Yeah, I don't know all the history on it, but it seems hard to say that Christianity had the hugest grip there to start with. This and other articles give the impression that Islam took that part of the world without the greatest resistance. Was Egypt near 100% Christian like some of the European countries by the 7th century or not?

Armenia was the world's first officially Christian nation (in 301 AD, according to the Journal of Ecclesiastical History), and is now 93% Christian

You linked me something in a different language there. But alright, I guess we can concede a rare exception for Armenia. Christianity managed to get a foothold there, but it looks like there only 3 million people there, not a whole lot.

The Philippines, with a population of over 100 million, is over 90% Christian.

So that makes about 90 million Christians in the Philippines. However again, for that part of the world that must the exception and not the rule. Japan for example also has over 100 million people, but supposedly less than one percent are Christian, and that trend most likely follows throughout the region.

China is 2.3% Christian - that's around 31 million people.

I can't read that. But out of 1.3 billion that's a pretty small number.

Thomas the Apostle ('Doubting Thomas') introduced Christianity to India in 52 AD, and the country is currently about 2.3% Christian as well, coincidentally, constituting 24 million people.

Out of 1.2 billion. If Thomas was martyred only for that, it might be safe to say that his mission was among the least successful.

Overall, globally, Christians in Europe make up 25.9% of the total, while those in the Americas make up 36.8%, including, of course, Latin America, and those in Asia make up 13.1%.

According to the article, supposedly a drastic change from the 1910 numbers, but on the greater time scale, 1910 was not that long ago. Also I don't know how that one is dealing with Russia, maybe they categorized it as Asia.

 

[Lyndon]

You said;

Think about it now, the whole of Christendom for the past 2000 years has been European specifically.

What part of "you were wrong" do you not understand????

 

[Kirran]

Though I haven't researched it really, I'd raise the point that South Africa was subject to heavy colonization by Europeans. So of that 40% you might be able to make a hefty deduction with that in mind depending on the statistics.

There are about 5.5 million Africans of European descent on the continent of Africa. There are 1.111 billion people on the continent in total. If we assume all 5.5. million of those Euro-Africans are Christian, that moves us from 40% to 39.995%.

Yeah, I don't know all the history on it, but it seems hard to say that Christianity had the hugest grip there to start with. This and other articles give the impression that Islam took that part of the world without the greatest resistance. Was Egypt near 100% Christian like some of the European countries by the 7th century or not?

Egypt was one of centres of the Christian world for centuries. Many famous figures in Christianity, such as Clement of Alexandria, and of course Desert Mothers and Fathers, who have gone on to influence Christian thought to a huge extent, were either from, or were based in, Egypt. The country was basically Christianised by the 5th Century, at the latest, with the last pagans tending to disappear by this point, leaving only a Jewish minority.

You linked me something in a different language there. But alright, I guess we can concede a rare exception for Armenia. Christianity managed to get a foothold there, but it looks like there only 3 million people there, not a whole lot.

Nevertheless, it shows that Christianity has a longer history outside of Europe than in it.

So that makes about 90 million Christians in the Philippines. However again, for that part of the world that must the exception and not the rule. Japan for example also has over 100 million people, but supposedly less than one percent are Christian, and that trend most likely follows throughout the region.

That's 90 million people, that's a sizable proportion of the world's global Christian population, the only countries with more Christians than the Philippines are the USA, Brazil, and Mexico, those latter two heavily influenced by non-European cultures and genes.

I can't read that. But out of 1.3 billion that's a pretty small number.

It's still a lot of people, and it's growing very fast. It seems that what this number is as a proportion of the total population is irrelevant, as we're discussing the proportion of Christians globally who are Europeans, rather than which countries are majority Christian.

Also, China has more Christians than any single country in Europe. I have found another source, which I consider to actually be more reputable, as that first was probably by the Chinese government, which claims there are 67 million Christians in China.

As an interesting point, by 2030, China is projected to have more Christians than any other nation in the world.

Out of 1.2 billion. If Thomas was martyred only for that, it might be safe to say that his mission was among the least successful.

Oh yeah, how many people have you converted? There are Christian communities in India which will soon have histories stretching back 2000 years. That's a long history of Christianity. There are 24 million people. This is lots of people.

According to the article, supposedly a drastic change from the 1910 numbers, but on the greater time scale, 1910 was not that long ago. Also I don't know how that one is dealing with Russia, maybe they categorized it as Asia.

Russia is in Europe, I think.

Yeah, it is a big change. But there've been other changes. For example, prior to the spread of Islam much of the Levant and North Africa was Christian. There were Popes from there. There used to be huge Christian populations in Central Asia and even into Mongolia.

In the present day, out of the countries with the top ten largest Christian populations, two are in Europe, and they're number 7 (Russia) and number 9 (Italy).

I think this rather refutes Christendom being 'specifically European'. Which is, to be honest, no surprise, as Christianity wasn't even founded in Europe.

 

[George-ananda]

Think about it now, the whole of Christendom for the past 2000 years has been European specifically - a very good reason for me not to be believe it, but beyond that it subdivides even among those Europeans. If you are Calvinist style Protestant, well then, by and large only the believing Protestant peoples like the English, Germans, and Nordic peoples will be there in heaven with you. Perhaps the baptists are in that sphere, if so, that heaven will only have 200 years or so of converted African-Americans, compared to 1500-2000 years of converted Europeans now spanning the world. If you are Catholic, well then, only the western Mediterranean peoples like the Italians and Spanish, French and beside this, Amerindians of the Middle and South Americas will be there in heaven with you, but only under 500 years worth to account for the late New World conversion era. And the Irish. If you are Orthodox, well then, only the Greeks and Russians and a few other Balkan peoples will be in heaven with you.

So you see, Christan hell, as you look down into it, will sadly by and large be filled with thousands of years worth the Indonesians, Pacific Islanders, Aborigines, Native Americans, All peoples of Asia, thousands of years of Amerindian peoples, the Inuit, Africans, Middle-easterners, Indians, and heaven by and large would be European to buy out Charlemagne. Now don't you see something skewed with this picture? What's you're take on this? If only the 'believers' get into heaven, then the general breadth of history of where Christianity has resided seems to prove that is a pretty noninclusive religion.

And as an atheist, this is just another reason for me to disbelieve in it, it's just another religion, it has won over a few parts of the world, but it really is markedly still a European cultural thing. Better are religions that do not proselytize like different kinds of Paganism or Judaism. Those religions may make a claim that gods look over specific peoples, but these are only claims of different gods for different peoples, and they don't threaten the world with hellfire, or feel a need to cause it to be converted away from indigenous gods.

I think the problem is in thinking that all Christians think only Christians go to heaven. Even the Pope does not hold that position.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

What is this? Some kind of joke thread? Sure sounds like one. Anyway, as has been pointed out, Christianity is a truly global religion, and has been since its beginning because it started in the Roman Empire. In the NT, there's Jews, Gentiles and Samaritans becoming Christians and the Book of Acts has an Ethiopian (i.e. a black African) man being Baptized. My own Church, the Catholic Church, has members in every country and pretty much every ethnic group and tribe. We also don't believe that every single non-Christian goes to Hell.

FYI:

On a lighter note, this thread makes me think of this :

 

[Kirran]

While a century ago it was majority-European, it was hardly specifically European.


Some nice numbers - a little different to the ones I quoted before, which I think might actually be more accurate (105 million Christians in Russia doesn't quite ring true to me) but still the same general impression

 

[JayJayDee]

What if you have begun with a wrong premise?

What if there is no afterlife at all, meaning that the place Christendom calls "hell" does not exist, and everyone who has died since Abel is sleeping peacefully in their graves awaiting the return of Christ who will then resurrect them as he promised? (John 5:28, 29) A chosen few will go to heaven to assist Christ in his role as king and priest (Rev 20:6) but the majority of mankind...especially those who never had a chance to hear about God or his Christ, will be restored to life in paradise conditions here on earth. (Rev 21:2-5)

Christ's sacrifice has given them forgiveness of their sins and they have a fresh start to begin life again in a new world where there is no crime or injustice. (2 Pet 3: 13) Everyone will learn about the true God and be given opportunity to enjoy the paradise conditions that we should have had at the beginning......what Adam lost for the human race, is what Jesus came to get us back....this is what the Bible actually teaches....Christendom has wandered off the path so far that she does not teach any of this, so any wonder her teachings make people mad at God.

 

[Kirran]

What if you have begun with a wrong premise?

What if there is no afterlife at all, meaning that the place Christendom calls "hell" does not exist, and everyone who has died since Abel is sleeping peacefully in their graves awaiting the return of Christ who will then resurrect them as he promised? (John 5:28, 29) A chosen few will go to heaven to assist Christ in his role as king and priest (Rev 20:6) but the majority of mankind...especially those who never had a chance to hear about God or his Christ, will be restored to life in paradise conditions here on earth. (Rev 21:2-5)

Christ's sacrifice has given them forgiveness of their sins and they have a fresh start to begin life again in a new world where there is no crime or injustice. (2 Pet 3: 13) Everyone will learn about the true God and be given opportunity to enjoy the paradise conditions that we should have had at the beginning......what Adam lost for the human race, is what Jesus came to get us back....this is what the Bible actually teaches....Christendom has wandered off the path so far that she does not teach any of this, so any wonder her teachings make people mad at God.

Is this the standard viewpoint of Jehovah's Witnesses on this? That's fascinating, I'd never realised.

If all humans are going to be in paradise after resurrection, then is there a benefit outside of personal satisfaction to being moralistic? i.e. having compassion and so forth

 

[JayJayDee]

Is this the standard viewpoint of Jehovah's Witnesses on this? That's fascinating, I'd never realised.

Yes, we do not subscribe to Christendom's version of Christianity at all. We believe that they are the weeds that Jesus foretold...a complete apostasy from his truth. They misrepresent the God they claim to worship.

If all humans are going to be in paradise after resurrection, then is there a benefit outside of personal satisfaction to being moralistic? i.e. having compassion and so forth

Since God designed humans to live forever on earth, then why would he take them to heaven after a miserable life on earth? This is not a training ground for heaven. What do people expect to do there?

Jesus came to teach us about his Father...the truth, not a twisted human view of who he is and what he has done. He showed us how to live and how to worship his Father acceptably. He was patient and kind but he did not tolerate any misrepresentation of his loving Father, whom Christendom portrays as a fiendish torturer of wicked soul in eternal flames....who could love such a god?!

His wonderful purpose is clearly stated in the Bible and it will be carried out. Everlasting life in paradise is what we lost, and that is what we get back.

It isn't more complicated than that.