The afterlife - an argument for why the Christian God may be racist/culturalist?

[Lyndon]

Is this the standard viewpoint of Jehovah's Witnesses on this? That's fascinating, I'd never realised.

If all humans are going to be in paradise after resurrection, then is there a benefit outside of personal satisfaction to being moralistic? i.e. having compassion and so forth

Its also very similar to the Seventh Day Adventist position on the resurrection.

 

[Caligula]

The problem with the afterlife, specifically with hell and heaven, is that it proposes an unjust system, no matter the context. None would fit within a stance of infinite joy nor infinite pain.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I think this rather refutes Christendom being 'specifically European'. Which is, to be honest, no surprise, as Christianity wasn't even founded in Europe.

Actually, a very relevant point here is that in the Pauline era sections of the New Testament, why is it that all the canonized material is of the apostles and proselytizers moving west. That has yet to be explained. Both Peter and Paul are martyred way out west in Rome. Mark for example also appears to have wanted to move west, but had got in a yelling match or something with Peter. John went west. Luke appears to as well. Whatever became of anyone else moving in any other direction apparently was not put in the Bible, or if it was it was barely mentioned. maybe those missions somehow happened too late for canonizing or something..

There are about 5.5 million Africans of European descent on the continent of Africa. There are 1.111 billion people on the continent in total. If we assume all 5.5. million of those Euro-Africans are Christian, that moves us from 40% to 39.995%.

The next question would be are they concentrated anywhere? If they are concentrated somewhere, for example around North Africa, that may seclude them from many others.

Egypt was one of centres of the Christian world for centuries. Many famous figures in Christianity, such as Clement of Alexandria, and of course Desert Mothers and Fathers, who have gone on to influence Christian thought to a huge extent, were either from, or were based in, Egypt. The country was basically Christianised by the 5th Century, at the latest, with the last pagans tending to disappear by this point, leaving only a Jewish minority.

You are aware however, that Alexandria was a huge Greek colonial city.

Nevertheless, it shows that Christianity has a longer history outside of Europe than in it.

From the initiation of Nicene Christianity in 325 to 1910 the difference is over a thousand years. From the first missions to the spread of Islam in Egypt and the subsequent decline of Christianity, the time span had to be less. The Christian tradition there may be older, but it is significantly diminished as you pointed out.

That's 90 million people, that's a sizable proportion of the world's global Christian population, the only countries with more Christians than the Philippines are the USA, Brazil, and Mexico, those latter two heavily influenced by non-European cultures and genes.

Yeah, but my point was that there a disproportionate amount of people from the Philippines to say, the Japanese or Chinese. The other countries in the region having supposedly much lower percentages of Christians hardly qualifies it for the status of being truly global.

It's still a lot of people, and it's growing very fast. It seems that what this number is as a proportion of the total population is irrelevant, as we're discussing the proportion of Christians globally who are Europeans, rather than which countries are majority Christian.

Also, China has more Christians than any single country in Europe. I have found another source, which I consider to actually be more reputable, as that first was probably by the Chinese government, which claims there are 67 million Christians in China.

As an interesting point, by 2030, China is projected to have more Christians than any other nation in the world.

Well, in a country of over a billion, large minorities are to be expected. Condensed to millions it follows that one could expect proportionally smaller numbers. The former data you linked says that 'China actually has more Christians than any European country besides Russia,' which shouldn't really come as a surprise to us, for if England had over a billion people, it would proportionally surely have the most Christians. If China does take the cake, they would still have to maintain it for some centuries and show some power to imprint upon it their own cultural bulwarks to historically rival that of the centuries of Catholicism with a cultural base in Rome for example. Also, Christianity must reach a majority level in China as it did in European countries, for latter countries were subject to immersion - this level of integration through millennia is part of what made European identity inseparable from Christianity - making them markedly Christian as I said in the OP.

Oh yeah, how many people have you converted? There are Christian communities in India which will soon have histories stretching back 2000 years. That's a long history of Christianity. There are 24 million people. This is lots of people.

No one, I don't do that. The ancient length of time is respectable, however what if one was to compare the total work of Thomas to Paul for example. Now Paul had gargantuan cathedrals and tapestries, kings, literature, canonized work, and probably statues dedicated to him and a line of Popes that often carry his name. Thomas to the best of my knowledge isn't in the Bible all that much, had gospels regarded as 'gnostic,' doesn't have many cities and things named after him, and was martyred in a country which today only has a Christian minority.

Yeah, it is a big change. But there've been other changes. For example, prior to the spread of Islam much of the Levant and North Africa was Christian. There were Popes from there. There used to be huge Christian populations in Central Asia and even into Mongolia.

Prior to the spread of Islam it is said that the Arabs were still pagan. The sacred stone of Mecca for example apparently started as an idol to tribal pagans. Also Persia if I am not incorrect. There are probably other examples as well from the region of being formerly pagan, and some of it might be documented in the Qur'an as well.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I think the problem is in thinking that all Christians think only Christians go to heaven. Even the Pope does not hold that position.

Exactly what were his words on that. Jesus said in John 3:16 that the act of 'belief' specifically had something to do with eternal life. And I think many Christians throughout Christian history probably believed that as well.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Some nice numbers - a little different to the ones I quoted before, which I think might actually be more accurate (105 million Christians in Russia doesn't quite ring true to me) but still the same general impression

I suppose I'd think there were a few more than that. However the Russian sphere encompasses quite a diverse amount of people.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Christendom for the past 2000 years has been European specifically

True.. if you don't count North America, South America, Africa, Asia, and Oceana...

 

[amorphous_constellation]

My own Church, the Catholic Church, has members in every country and pretty much every ethnic group and tribe. We also don't believe that every single non-Christian goes to Hell.

but the majority of mankind...especially those who never had a chance to hear about God or his Christ, will be restored to life in paradise conditions here on earth. (Rev 21:2-5)

So what, can I be an Atheist or a Wiccan and still get into your versions of heaven? Can I be a secular philosopher in partial disagreement with Jesus?

Also Saint Frankenstein, one thing about the map you linked up there. It seems to indicate that I could walk from Poland to the tip of the Kamchatka peninsula and scarcely find a Catholic town, this doesn't qualify the religion for a global status in a sense. Also, there has never been a Pacific Islander Pope to the best of my knowledge. If the religion really wanted to spread it simply would not base itself in any country or city.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

True.. if you don't count North America, South America, Africa, Asia, and Oceana...

Well, how come the Vatican isn't in Oceania? They could move it there for a while to ensure the inclusiveness of the religion, however having it in a certain place for a thousand years ensures the religion is less international I thought.

 

[Lyndon]

True.. if you don't count North America, South America, Africa, Asia, and Oceana...

Not to mention Antarctica, many of Antarctica's residents are Christian. And half of Australia.

 

[gsa]

I think this rather refutes Christendom being 'specifically European'. Which is, to be honest, no surprise, as Christianity wasn't even founded in Europe.

It doesn’t address the racial, ethnic and cultural disparity in hell though, as many of those numbers are very recent, compared to the historical case. A similar critique can be made of Islamic hell.

I mean if you take this argument seriously, you must still admit that there are more indigenous Americans in hell than not, more Han in hell than not, more Indians in hell than not...there is a real disparity.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

It doesn’t address the racial, ethnic and cultural disparity in hell though, as many of those numbers are very recent, compared to the historical case. A similar critique can be made of Islamic hell.

Yes, I should have titled the thread "racial, ethnic and cultural disparities in the afterlife." That's more on point. The religion or 'God' isn't necessarily racist, but the post-life plane would reflect an imbalance due to imbalanced proselytizing on a global scale.

 

[Kirran]

Its also very similar to the Seventh Day Adventist position on the resurrection.

Saw some people handing out the Watchtower (a Jehovah's Witness newsletter) as well as some other information, outside the supermarket, so I stopped to have a chat with one of them about all their views on this, it was very illuminating.

Actually, a very relevant point here is that in the Pauline era sections of the New Testament, why is it that all the canonized material is of the apostles and proselytizers moving west. That has yet to be explained. Both Peter and Paul are martyred way out west in Rome. Mark for example also appears to have wanted to move west, but had got in a yelling match or something with Peter. John went west. Luke appears to as well. Whatever became of anyone else moving in any other direction apparently was not put in the Bible, or if it was it was barely mentioned. maybe those missions somehow happened too late for canonizing or something..

I'll state up front, I've never read the New Testament. However, I imagine it would have been far easier to move west than east at this time. Nevertheless, it doesn't support the notion that Christianity is, or has ever been, specifically European.

The next question would be are they concentrated anywhere? If they are concentrated somewhere, for example around North Africa, that may seclude them from many others.

Are Christians in Africa concentrated anywhere? Well, Sub-Saharan Africa is predominantly Christian. That's an area over double the size of Europe.

You are aware however, that Alexandria was a huge Greek colonial city.

I am. I'm also aware that most Egyptians were nevertheless not Greek. The Copts, the Nubians...

From the initiation of Nicene Christianity in 325 to 1910 the difference is over a thousand years. From the first missions to the spread of Islam in Egypt and the subsequent decline of Christianity, the time span had to be less. The Christian tradition there may be older, but it is significantly diminished as you pointed out.

Certainly. Still, an ancient tradition, with a Christian population stretching back from the modern day to biblical times.

Yeah, but my point was that there a disproportionate amount of Philippines to say, the Japanese or Chinese. The other countries in the region having supposedly much lower percentages of Christians hardly qualifies it for the status of being truly global.

The Philippines is more Christian than Japan. Christians are less than 20% of the population in the Czech Republic, a small minority in Kosovo and Albania, while Estonia, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, France, the UK, Finland, the Netherlands, Belarus, Russia, Bulgaria, Latvia, Belgium, Hungary, Slovenia, Spain, Germany, Switzerland, Lithuania, Ukraine and Slovakia all have majorities professing the lack of importance of religion in their lives. Therefore, Christianity can hardly be said to be found in Europe, by your logic. Christianity is found on every continent of the globe with large numbers of adherents. This makes it a global religion, by my reckoning.

Well, in a country of over a billion, large minorities are to be expected. Condensed to millions it follows that one could expect proportionally smaller numbers. The former data you linked says that 'China actually has more Christians than any European country besides Russia,' which shouldn't really come as a surprise to us, for if England had over a billion people, it would proportionally surely have the most Christians. If China does take the cake, they would still have to maintain it for some centuries and show some power to imprint upon it their own cultural bulwarks to historically rival that of the centuries of Catholicism with a cultural base in Rome for example. Also, Christianity must reach a majority level in China as it did in European countries, for latter countries were subject to immersion - this level of integration through millennia is part of what made European identity inseparable from Christianity - making them markedly Christian as I said in the OP.

I'm European. I don't feel markedly Christian. Of course Christianity has had an impact on European culture. Also on North African cultures, on Ethiopian culture, on the cultures of the nations of South America, of North America, of Sub-Saharan Africa, of Insular Southeast Asia, of Oceania.

And none of what you're saying refutes the fact that Christianity is not specifically European, because there are huge numbers of Christians elsewhere, with barely more than a quarter in Europe.

No one, I don't do that. The ancient length of time is respectable, however what if one was to compare the total work of Thomas to Paul for example. Now Paul had gargantuan cathedrals and tapestries, kings, literature, canonized work, and probably statues dedicated to him and a line of Popes that often carry his name. Thomas to the best of my knowledge isn't in the Bible all that much, had gospels regarded as 'gnostic,' doesn't have many cities and things named after him, and was martyred in a country which today only has a Christian minority.

Fair enough. Nevertheless, there are Christians in large numbers outside Europe.

Prior to the spread of Islam it is said that the Arabs were still pagan. The sacred stone of Mecca for example apparently started as an idol to tribal pagans. Also Persia if I am not incorrect. There are probably other examples as well from the region of being formerly pagan, and some of it might be documented in the Qur'an as well.

In the Qur'an, there is made a lot of mention of the People of the Book, the Jews and Christians, who were present in Arabia at this time. Among the Meccan tribes, there were pagans, Christians, Jews. Also, North Africa, which was not Arab at this time, was predominantly Christian. The Levant, which was also not Arab at this time, was Christian. Turkey was Christian. The Caucasus was Christian. Christianity has a longer history in Iran than Islam, by far, although Christians have only ever been minorities, currently with a population of quarter of a million. During the 500s, it was officially Christian for a period, some argue. Certainly the king's wife and son were both Christians. Persians were among those converted at Pentecost, so Christianity has had a presence there since the apostolic age.

Overall, I think we can safely say Christian can be found, and always have been found, in large numbers outside Europe.

 

[Kirran]

It doesn’t address the racial, ethnic and cultural disparity in hell though, as many of those numbers are very recent, compared to the historical case. A similar critique can be made of Islamic hell.

I mean if you take this argument seriously, you must still admit that there are more indigenous Americans in hell than not, more Han in hell than not, more Indians in hell than not...there is a real disparity.

Depends on the criteria of going to hell.

 

[gsa]

Depends on the criteria of going to hell.

And depends on the existence of hell, which JWs and others deny. But then we are left with no coherent definition of Christianity and so therefore no argument one way or the other.

I mean it is clearly, to me, a false religion that is intellectually and logically incoherent. But this critique of what many, many Christians believe is a fair one.

 

[Lyndon]

It doesn’t address the racial, ethnic and cultural disparity in hell though, as many of those numbers are very recent, compared to the historical case. A similar critique can be made of Islamic hell.

I mean if you take this argument seriously, you must still admit that there are more indigenous Americans in hell than not, more Han in hell than not, more Indians in hell than not...there is a real disparity.

You've been to hell and are reporting back??? Amazing.

 

[gsa]

You've been to hell and are reporting back??? Amazing.

No, and no one will ever report back from a nonexistent location.

 

[Lyndon]

Saw some people handing out the Watchtower (a Jehovah's Witness newsletter) as well as some other information, outside the supermarket, so I stopped to have a chat with one of them about all their views on this, it was very illuminating.



I'll state up front, I've never read the New Testament. However, I imagine it would have been far easier to move west than east at this time. Nevertheless, it doesn't support the notion that Christianity is, or has ever been, specifically European.



Are Christians in Africa concentrated anywhere? Well, Sub-Saharan Africa is predominantly Christian. That's an area over double the size of Europe.



I am. I'm also aware that most Egyptians were nevertheless not Greek. The Copts, the Nubians...



Certainly. Still, an ancient tradition, with a Christian population stretching back from the modern day to biblical times.



The Philippines is more Christian than Japan. Christians are less than 20% of the population in the Czech Republic, a small minority in Kosovo and Albania, while Estonia, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, France, the UK, Finland, the Netherlands, Belarus, Russia, Bulgaria, Latvia, Belgium, Hungary, Slovenia, Spain, Germany, Switzerland, Lithuania, Ukraine and Slovakia all have majorities professing the lack of importance of religion in their lives. Therefore, Christianity can hardly be said to be found in Europe, by your logic. Christianity is found on every continent of the globe with large numbers of adherents. This makes it a global religion, by my reckoning.



I'm European. I don't feel markedly Christian. Of course Christianity has had an impact on European culture. Also on North African cultures, on Ethiopian culture, on the cultures of the nations of South America, of North America, of Sub-Saharan Africa, of Insular Southeast Asia, of Oceania.

And none of what you're saying refutes the fact that Christianity is not specifically European, because there are huge numbers of Christians elsewhere, with barely more than a quarter in Europe.



Fair enough. Nevertheless, there are Christians in large numbers outside Europe.



In the Qur'an, there is made a lot of mention of the People of the Book, the Jews and Christians, who were present in Arabia at this time. Among the Meccan tribes, there were pagans, Christians, Jews. Also, North Africa, which was not Arab at this time, was predominantly Christian. The Levant, which was also not Arab at this time, was Christian. Turkey was Christian. The Caucasus was Christian. Christianity has a longer history in Iran than Islam, by far, although Christians have only ever been minorities, currently with a population of quarter of a million. During the 500s, it was officially Christian for a period, some argue. Certainly the king's wife and son were both Christians. Persians were among those converted at Pentecost, so Christianity has had a presence there since the apostolic age.

Overall, I think we can safely say Christian can be found, and always have been found, in large numbers outside Europe.

Actually you've got your quote function messed up, I'm only responsible for your first quote.

 

[Kirran]

No, and no one will ever report back from a nonexistent location.

So how can we say who goes there?

It is for God to judge, not us.

 

[gsa]

So how can we say who goes there?

It is for God to judge, not us.

According to most Christians, we have some idea of who will go there; same with Muslims. In any event, I doubt the OP is even relevant to someone who doesn't believe in hell or who believes that we have no idea if anyone is going there.

 

[Kirran]

According to most Christians, we have some idea of who will go there; same with Muslims. In any event, I doubt the OP is even relevant to someone who doesn't believe in hell or who believes that we have no idea if anyone is going there.

Some idea, sure. But I think most Christians and most Muslims would believe in at least the possibility for non-Christians/non-Muslims getting in to heaven.