The American Conservative: GOP Censured Free Thought, Conscience

[Ponder This]

Yes, we have evidence of criminality in both McCarthy and Jordan.

Irrelevant. McCarthy's and Jordan's supposed criminality has nothing to do with the censure of Cheney and Kinzonger by the Republican party.

The committee was not formed to go after Trump.

Irrelevant. Cheney and Kinzinger are not being censured because of their vendetta against Trump.

Cheney and Kinzinger were censured for being willing to participate in the process.

No. They are participating in the process - not merely willing to participate - and they are falsely representing the interests of the Republican party in the manner that they have decided to do so.

About 200 Representative both refused to impeach Trump and about a year later, voted against forming a committee to investigate. By the reasoning that allows you to call Cheney and Kinzinger biases against Trump

Irrelevant. Cheney and Kinzinger are not being censured for their bias against Trump.

Also, as I've explained, the interests of the Republican party are irrelevant to this or any other investigation.

It is a censure by the Republican party because Cheney and Kinzinger were not selected by the Republican party and do not represent the interests of the Republican party on the committee. This is pertinent.

The Democrats have no duty to the Republican party or to accommodate its interests - no reason to compromise with them.

Irrelevant. We are talking about a censure internal to the Republican party. What does the disposition of the Democrats have to do with it? Nothing.

That's all gone now. The Republicans haven't shown that kind of respect for the Democrats since the days of Newt Gingrich, who, when asked why the Republicans were impeaching Clinton rather than just censuring him, answered, "Because we can." Likewise when they stole a Supreme Court nomination from Obama because they could, and Trump refused to assist Biden during what should have been a transition. So what deference do you think the Democrats owe the Republicans? None. How much should they be interested in what Republicans want when it contradicts what they want? Zero. How much should they compromise with Republicans? About as much as Republicans compromise with Democrats: never. Yet Pelosi still gave the Republicans five nominations that had to be mutually acceptable, and when they refused those terms, gave them two seats anyway.

You talk a lot about the Democrats as if they were important to the decision by Republicans to censure Cheney and Kinzinger. Cheney and Kinzinger were not selected by the Republican party (they were selected by the Democrat party). Cheney and Kinzinger are representing the interests of the Democrat party on the committee - not the interests of the Republican party on the committee - AND, moreover, under the pretense of representing Republican interests. It is unethical regardless of their supposed moral compunctions.

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We are just repeating the same arguments. You can't convince me through arguments that have nothing to do with the topic of the thread. If you want to discuss the supposed guilt of Trump, then perhaps you should open a thread to discuss that.

Peace.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Irrelevant. McCarthy's and Jordan's supposed criminality has nothing to do with the censure of Cheney and Kinzonger by the Republican party.

You commented, "More presumed guilt? Shall I assume that you have prior evidence of [McCarthy's and Jordan's] criminality as well? " I answered, "Yes, we have evidence of criminality in both McCarthy and Jordan."

Irrelevant. Cheney and Kinzinger are not being censured because of their vendetta against Trump.

Agreed. Did you think I thought otherwise?

they are falsely representing the interests of the Republican party in the manner that they have decided to do so.

You keep saying that like it matters. I keep telling you that it doesn't. Cheney and Kinzinger represent the Constitution and their constituencies, not the Republican party. The RNC does that, and it also has no place being part of the investigation process. You've never tried to rebut that or even address why you think the interests of the Republican party should matter here. You just keep insisting that these two people don't do that, to which I've agreed, and that that should matter. To whom? The Republican party? That's irrelevant to the committee and its purpose. If you disagree, please say why. Why should the committee be solicitous to the interests of the Republican party?

It is a censure by the Republican party because Cheney and Kinzinger were not selected by the Republican party and do not represent the interests of the Republican party on the committee. This is pertinent.

I agree that they do not represent the interests of the party. The censure was because the two didn't want to represent those interests, which was to scuttle the process.

Cheney and Kinzinger are representing the interests of the Democrat party on the committee

No, they are not. They are representing their constituents, the Constitution, and their own consciences, which happen to be accord with the values the Democrats stand for. These people have no interest in the process as Democrats. Their interest is as patriotic citizens tasked with an important job. Cheney and Kinzinger have almost nothing else in common with the Democrats apart from wanting to know what happened January 6th and reporting any criminality to the DOJ for possible prosecution.

I've asked you more that once why those aren't your values as well, but you declined to answer. You seem like a decent and articulate person, like Cheney and Kinzinger. I don't expect such people to align with the Republican party. Such people are generally morally and/or intellectually challenged. I don't see evidence of either in you apart from your aligning yourself with people that I do consider corrupt, which is why I ask why you would do that. The Republicans are anti-American. They are anti-democracy. They are anti-rule-of-law. They are promoting chaos by opposing airplane no-fly lists and encouraging truck demonstrations to burden American cities. What Americans are siding with Putin over Biden and a democratic state (Ukraine)? Republicans. Who supported the insurrection? Republicans. Why do you care at all about such people or their interests?

If you're getting tired of the discussion, it's fine with me if you chose to end it without a response here. I thought I was done as well, but as you can see, I had a few questions yet.

 

[Ponder This]

Agreed. Did you think I thought otherwise?

We have agreement. Your claim of criminality on the part of Trump is irrelevant.
I did think that you thought it was relevant somehow because you kept asserting that Trump engaged in criminal activity.

You keep saying that like it matters. I keep telling you that it doesn't. Cheney and Kinzinger represent the Constitution and their constituencies, not the Republican party. The RNC does that, and it also has no place being part of the investigation process. You've never tried to rebut that or even address why you think the interests of the Republican party should matter here. You just keep insisting that these two people don't do that, to which I've agreed, and that that should matter. To whom? The Republican party? That's irrelevant to the committee and its purpose. If you disagree, please say why. Why should the committee be solicitous to the interests of the Republican party?

Yes, it matters to the Republican party.
The point of a committee is to represent the interests of the House. The House assigns tasks to committees who return their findings to the floor.

I agree that they do not represent the interests of the party. The censure was because the two didn't want to represent those interests, which was to scuttle the process.

Whether or not the interests of the Republican party were to scuttle the process is irelevant.
However, you agree that Cheney and Kinzinger were censured because they do not represent the interests of the Republican party on the committee. In fact, they were not selected by the Republican party to be on the committee. The censure is clearly justified.

No, they are not. They are representing their constituents, the Constitution, and their own consciences, which happen to be accord with the values the Democrats stand for. These people have no interest in the process as Democrats. Their interest is as patriotic citizens tasked with an important job. Cheney and Kinzinger have almost nothing else in common with the Democrats apart from wanting to know what happened January 6th and reporting any criminality to the DOJ for possible prosecution.

They do represent their own interests as well as those of their constituents, but they were selected to the committee by Democrats - not Republicans. They just so happen to be representing Democrat interests with regards to this committee.

I've asked you more that once why those aren't your values as well, but you declined to answer. You seem like a decent and articulate person, like Cheney and Kinzinger. I don't expect such people to align with the Republican party. Such people are generally morally and/or intellectually challenged. I don't see evidence of either in you apart from your aligning yourself with people that I do consider corrupt, which is why I ask why you would do that. The Republicans are anti-American. They are anti-democracy. They are anti-rule-of-law. They are promoting chaos by opposing airplane no-fly lists and encouraging truck demonstrations to burden American cities. What Americans are siding with Putin over Biden and a democratic state (Ukraine)? Republicans. Who supported the insurrection? Republicans. Why do you care at all about such people or their interests?

I declined to answer because it's not relevant. Why do you insist on bringing up issues that are not relevant to the censure of Cheney and Kinzinger? Why is it important for me to respond to such questions when the answers to those questions do not matter? Let's adopt for a moment your extremist view that Republicans are anti-American (?), anti-democracy(?), anti-rule-of-law(??), that they side with Putin over Ukraine (?), and that they want to overthrow the government(?). I will confess that such a view seems ridiculous to me, but what of it? What about that matters with regard to the censure of Cheney and Kinzinger?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I declined to answer

Then I'm with you that we've reached the end. We've each expressed our beliefs, you don't want to discuss why you support Trump or the Republicans, or why you think the Republicans interests should be considered, or why the existing committee will not do a thorough investigation of the facts if the Republican leadership didn't put people on it, so we're done. Thanks for your good cheer.

 

[Ponder This]

Then I'm with you that we've reached the end. We've each expressed our beliefs, you don't want to discuss why you support Trump or the Republicans, or why you think the Republicans interests should be considered, or why the existing committee will not do a thorough investigation of the facts if the Republican leadership didn't put people on it, so we're done. Thanks for your good cheer.

Consider opening a thread to discuss those topics. Cheers!