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The Angels Commanded to bow before Adam?

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Why is this? I am not speaking of only the Quran either. The book of Haggadah says the angels were commanded to bow to Adam, which Michael and his host did, but which Satan wouldn't do, so he was cast from heaven. What is your take on this?
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
God commanded Angels to bow before Adam because it's his creation and he wanted them to recognize its greatness. It wasn't an act of worship for Adam, but an act of obedience for God commands.
 
Why is this? I am not speaking of only the Quran either. The book of Haggadah says the angels were commanded to bow to Adam, which Michael and his host did, but which Satan wouldn't do, so he was cast from heaven. What is your take on this?

This just so happens to be the most difficult to understand stories in the entire bible. My guess is that God shows favor to the weak and was proud to have created humanity. As to why he wanted his angels to bow, that I really dont fully understand yet. I dont think anyone will agree on just one thing at this time just yet.
 
IMO God created Adam and Eve in his image, as his children, whereas angels were meant to be in a supporting and servant role. It was the angels responsibility to help Adam and Eve reach their maturity as God's son and daughter. Angels should have bowed down to humans, at least figuratively. Due to the Fall however we fell to a lower position than the angels, and so have been in the position to look up to them. Someday though the original positions will be restored.
 
IMO God created Adam and Eve in his image, as his children, whereas angels were meant to be in a supporting and servant role. It was the angels responsibility to help Adam and Eve reach their maturity as God's son and daughter. Angels should have bowed down to humans, at least figuratively. Due to the Fall however we fell to a lower position than the angels, and so have been in the position to look up to them. Someday though the original positions will be restored.

That makes sense. Though, to be honest, I dont mind looking up to the angels.:bow::angel2:
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
You're each are missing the point.

God and the angels are spiritual life.
Man is physical.

Man is a creature designed to form spirit born of unique perspective.
You are interesting to God because you are unique.
But you are fragile.

The story I heard is more like this.....

Having made Man, He said to His angels...
'Man IS fragile. Therefore, seek after him that he stub not his toe, nor dash his head.'

Lucifer...God's favored angel said....
'Nay. They are less than we are. They should be made to serve us.'

There is nothing wrong with that logic.

We humans do so unto everything around us.

We bridle and saddle horses, and break their spirit that they take us wherever we will go.
We chain our dogs, though they prefer to run in packs, and still we expect their loyalty.
We cage little birds to hear their songs. But the little creature will never find the mate he sings for. There will be no nest or little ones, and he will die in solitude.

We kill what we care to.

We dominate everything we touch, and we do so... because we are a greater creature.
We even do so unto each other.

A fight broke out....swords drawn.... brother angel against brother angel.
One third of the angelic lost their place in heaven.... because of an argument....over something that looks like you.

The one third that were caste out... might want you dead....but maybe you've read Job.
'Do what you will unto Job...but do not kill him.'

Have you considered what will be standing over you when your last hour comes? when your last breath is gone?
The image of God..... are you?
 
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Eliot Wild

Irreverent Agnostic Jerk
I certainly mean no offense to anyone personally, this is just my opinion, but this story is just more evidence to me of certain individual's unrealistic belief in a self-centric universe.

This is not to say that God doesn't exist nor that Jesus wasn't the Christ nor that Muhammad wasn't Allah's prophet, nor that Jimmy Stewart didn't really have a giant invisible bunny named Harvey for a best friend, but people throughout the ages have liked to believe that everything, literally everything, revolves around them. Some believe this world was created especially for them, while others believe that other creatures, such as animals, were especially created for the service of man, and some others believe we are the only life in the universe because the entire universe was created especially for us, mankind, God's favorites.

Clearly, a story about Angels bowing to Adam would fit neatly into this self-centric philosophy, wherein Mankind is somehow special and specially honored among God's creations.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I certainly mean no offense to anyone personally, this is just my opinion, but this story is just more evidence to me of certain individual's unrealistic belief in a self-centric universe.

This is not to say that God doesn't exist nor that Jesus wasn't the Christ nor that Muhammad wasn't Allah's prophet, nor that Jimmy Stewart didn't really have a giant invisible bunny named Harvey for a best friend, but people throughout the ages have liked to believe that everything, literally everything, revolves around them. Some believe this world was created especially for them, while others believe that other creatures, such as animals, were especially created for the service of man, and some others believe we are the only life in the universe because the entire universe was created especially for us, mankind, God's favorites.

Clearly, a story about Angels bowing to Adam would fit neatly into this self-centric philosophy, wherein Mankind is somehow special and specially honored among God's creations.

Fine. You're not special....
You're not bigger,faster, stronger, more intelligent, or greatly experienced.
But then...where do you want to 'fit in'?
 

Eliot Wild

Irreverent Agnostic Jerk
Fine. You're not special....
You're not bigger,faster, stronger, more intelligent, or greatly experienced.
But then...where do you want to 'fit in'?


I suppose I don't have a need to "fit in".

But then again, I don't really understand what you're asking.

I don't think any of that which you have described above, being bigger or faster or stronger or more intelligent, indicates a special place in the universe. And even if there is a God, which I will concede is a possibility, none of those things, at least in my mind, make mankind the center of God's creation or make him somehow specially honored before all of God's other creations.

Also, for the sake of clarifying my position, let me just concede that the Biblical perspective of the universe is correct, at least in most respects. Let's say that there are Angels, those who serve God faithfully and those who do not, like Satan himself and others that have fallen and now rebel against God. Let's say that mankind is really separated from God and Jesus is the Christ, the substitionary atonement for our sins to redeem us and reconnect us with God, or something like that. Let's say all of this is more or less true. Even given all that, why would we believe as humans that we are somehow the central figures of God's creations, with Angels bowing to us and animals serving us and everything revolving around us? No offense to anyone personally, but that just sounds self-indulgent to me.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I suppose I don't have a need to "fit in".

But then again, I don't really understand what you're asking.

I don't think any of that which you have described above, being bigger or faster or stronger or more intelligent, indicates a special place in the universe. And even if there is a God, which I will concede is a possibility, none of those things, at least in my mind, make mankind the center of God's creation or make him somehow specially honored before all of God's other creations.

Also, for the sake of clarifying my position, let me just concede that the Biblical perspective of the universe is correct, at least in most respects. Let's say that there are Angels, those who serve God faithfully and those who do not, like Satan himself and others that have fallen and now rebel against God. Let's say that mankind is really separated from God and Jesus is the Christ, the substitionary atonement for our sins to redeem us and reconnect us with God, or something like that. Let's say all of this is more or less true. Even given all that, why would we believe as humans that we are somehow the central figures of God's creations, with Angels bowing to us and animals serving us and everything revolving around us? No offense to anyone personally, but that just sounds self-indulgent to me.

Okay...let me see if I can do this.... easy....

The five qualities I listed, separate who serves and who is served.
These five basic attributes denote, whose will shall prevail.
God is the Almighty....because His will cannot be set aside.

I believe in spiritual life.
I suspect spiritual life to be more than this life....and could be eternal.

Who's in charge?
Is there conflict in Heaven as there is here, in this life?

Where you 'fit in' is determined by what you say, and do.
What you have said or done, will draw to you....kindred spirits.
(Some people call this Karma....some people call it justice....)

And for now it does seem....God is sitting back....watching how this develops.

Of course if you have no inclination to an afterlife....then you are dust.
And this discussion will fade when you do.

BTW...I happen to be rogue theologian.
My relationship with other prophets cannot be assumed.
 
I suppose I don't have a need to "fit in".

But then again, I don't really understand what you're asking.

I don't think any of that which you have described above, being bigger or faster or stronger or more intelligent, indicates a special place in the universe. And even if there is a God, which I will concede is a possibility, none of those things, at least in my mind, make mankind the center of God's creation or make him somehow specially honored before all of God's other creations.

Also, for the sake of clarifying my position, let me just concede that the Biblical perspective of the universe is correct, at least in most respects. Let's say that there are Angels, those who serve God faithfully and those who do not, like Satan himself and others that have fallen and now rebel against God. Let's say that mankind is really separated from God and Jesus is the Christ, the substitionary atonement for our sins to redeem us and reconnect us with God, or something like that. Let's say all of this is more or less true. Even given all that, why would we believe as humans that we are somehow the central figures of God's creations, with Angels bowing to us and animals serving us and everything revolving around us? No offense to anyone personally, but that just sounds self-indulgent to me.

In the modern age science has been waking us up to how much we are like other living things, including our DNA, our behaviour, etc... I think this is good, as we need to realize how we fit into the web of life, and must respect and harmonize with all things. Nevertheless, I believe that after realizing those things, we also should recognize the ways in which humans are unique, at least on this planet. You can disagree with this, but no matter what the scientists say, I think certain qualities, which are related to the spiritual dimension,things like artistic expression and religiousity, are unique to humans. Also, I think that animals and plants are not capable of true evil, while humans unfortunately are. This relates to a moral responsibility for self-creation that we have. Here, evil doesn't mean killing other animals for survival, but rather doing something in opposition to God, directly or indirectly.

As you pointed out I don't think that being stronger, or faster, or even more intelligent would put a being in a central position in God's scheme of things. Rather, I view that God's central attribute is heart, the desire to love, and for this He created all things. The being that would be in a central position would be one that would have the capacity to understand and fully respond to God's heart and desire to love. To me that is why God created people, although we have not realized that potential. But accepting Jesus' words that he is one in heart with God as a father, we have to to consider the possibility that he did realize that. And he said that we will be like him. All creations are expressions of God and have tremendous value, but I believe God's nature entails setting up a purpose of creating one being in his image in a central position. That's my take.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
In the modern age science has been waking us up to how much we are like other living things, including our DNA, our behaviour, etc... I think this is good, as we need to realize how we fit into the web of life, and must respect and harmonize with all things. Nevertheless, I believe that after realizing those things, we also should recognize the ways in which humans are unique, at least on this planet. You can disagree with this, but no matter what the scientists say, I think certain qualities, which are related to the spiritual dimension,things like artistic expression and religiousity, are unique to humans. Also, I think that animals and plants are not capable of true evil, while humans unfortunately are. This relates to a moral responsibility for self-creation that we have. Here, evil doesn't mean killing other animals for survival, but rather doing something in opposition to God, directly or indirectly.

As you pointed out I don't think that being stronger, or faster, or even more intelligent would put a being in a central position in God's scheme of things. Rather, I view that God's central attribute is heart, the desire to love, and for this He created all things. The being that would be in a central position would be one that would have the capacity to understand and fully respond to God's heart and desire to love. To me that is why God created people, although we have not realized that potential. But accepting Jesus' words that he is one in heart with God as a father, we have to to consider the possibility that he did realize that. And he said that we will be like him. All creations are expressions of God and have tremendous value, but I believe God's nature entails setting up a purpose of creating one being in his image in a central position. That's my take.

Being bigger, faster, stronger, more intelligent, and greatly experienced...
places God at the center.

Jesus...btw...said of Himself....'brother and fellow servant'.
I see Him as a greater being, having done miracles, having told parables.
But this topic thread isn't about Him.

This topic is more than that.

This discussion displays God...His relationship to His angels...and our situation somewhere in between.

Where do you 'fit in'?
 
Being bigger, faster, stronger, more intelligent, and greatly experienced...
places God at the center.

Jesus...btw...said of Himself....'brother and fellow servant'.
I see Him as a greater being, having done miracles, having told parables.
But this topic thread isn't about Him.

This topic is more than that.

This discussion displays God...His relationship to His angels...and our situation somewhere in between.

Where do you 'fit in'?

I agree that God is the center, and that is the most important. Where do we fit in? I believe that innately our position is higher than angels, and that position will be restored someday. Paul implied that we will have authority to "judge" the angels (1 Cor. 6:3) In Genesis it mentions that God sent an angel to wrestle with Jacob throughout an entire night. When Jacob didn't give up, though his bone was put out of joint, the angel was forced to bless him, and give him the name Israel, the root of the chosen people. This was the beginning of the restoration of man's dominion over angels, IMO. As for me, I'm sure that many times my love and dedication to God fall far short of the pure angels. But still, I think we all have angels guiding, or trying to guide us to help us realize our potential as God's children.
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
From a Jewish perspective, I would guess that this is because mankind is seen as special as we are both good AND evil in one being....

unlike angels
 

Eliot Wild

Irreverent Agnostic Jerk
Okay...let me see if I can do this.... easy....

The five qualities I listed, separate who serves and who is served.
These five basic attributes denote, whose will shall prevail.
God is the Almighty....because His will cannot be set aside.

I believe in spiritual life.
I suspect spiritual life to be more than this life....and could be eternal.

Who's in charge?
Is there conflict in Heaven as there is here, in this life?

Where you 'fit in' is determined by what you say, and do.
What you have said or done, will draw to you....kindred spirits.
(Some people call this Karma....some people call it justice....)

And for now it does seem....God is sitting back....watching how this develops.

Of course if you have no inclination to an afterlife....then you are dust.
And this discussion will fade when you do.

BTW...I happen to be rogue theologian.
My relationship with other prophets cannot be assumed.


It seems you are suggesting the universe has a loose, but definite structure dependant upon individual abilities. And those who are more skilled dominate over those who are less skilled. Is this it?

I certainly mean no offense to you, so please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't understand what you are saying. Your posts are a bit cryptic. And there is nothing "wrong" with that necessarily, but it is not effective communication, at least not for someone slow and dull like me.

For example, your indication that you believe in sprititual life is clear, straightforward and understandable. But I get really lost after that.

Who is in charge you ask. However, didn't you already state somewhere earlier that you believe God, being bigger, stronger, faster and more experienced than everyone else, is in charge?

Next, you ask if there is conflict in heaven. Seems pretty straightforward, and if we reject the conventional notion of heaven as a place of reward, of "Peace in the Valley", then certainly, it is possible that heaven is a place of conflict where we strive to dominate others, or at least challenge others, in order to "fit in", as you put it, closer to God, closer to the top, I suppose. But if that is your view, or something similar to it, then why use the word "heaven"? Heaven implies bliss and happiness. And if you disagree with that, then I think our definitions of certain ideas are so vastly different that we probably wouldn't reach any practical understanding of each other anyway. Which is fine. Doesn't mean we couldn't play darts and have some drinks together sometime. But while I realize there are alternative definitions for the word, "Heaven", such as the skies and/or the firmament--for example: "Look to the heavens and see the eagle soar"--when someone uses it in the context of God's abode, it usually implies something different than what you have envisioned as possible.

Next, I am really lost on this idea of drawing "kindred spirits" to one's self. Since you have utilized the word, "Karma", I believe that to be some sort of divine justice in which every human thought and/or action brings about a universal response, with good human actions eliciting good universal responses and bad human actions eliciting bad responses from the universe. But how this fits in with all the other, I apologize again for my dullness, but I just don't understand.

Further, you suggest that God is an inactive observer of his creation. Fine, I sort of hold a similar view. I don't see a lot of evidence that God is interacting with mankind or even responding to stimuli from his creations. People claim their illness was miraculously cured by God through prayer, but I've also witnessed people "miraculously" cured from illness without ever imploring God's intervention. While, on the other hand, I've seen people pray endlessly for a cure to an illness only to watch a loved one die anyway. Maybe God answers, but I don't see much evidence of it, not when balanced out by the cases that get absolutely no response from God at all.

However, you seem to imply that if I or any other person is disinclined to an afterlife, then we don't have to endure it. I don't know why anyone would make such a choice, but is that what you're saying? That I can simply choose now or in the future, maybe at the time of death, to forego the afterlife?

And one last thing, I don't understand your comment that one shouldn't assume your relationship to other prophets. Does this mean you consider yourself a prophet? And if so, do you mean in the sense that you have divine knowledge of future events? Maybe that is not what you mean by referring to "other" prophets, but if you do believe there are prophets, people who receive divine knowledge of future events, wouldn't that mean that God is not just sitting back as you earlier indicated? Wouldn't that mean God is at least communicating knowledge of the future to some people?

Finally, believe me, I try never to assume anything about anyone, whether on this forum or elsewhere. When I conceded a Biblical model of the universe in an earlier post, it wasn't an effort to better understand your position but it was an effort to better explain mine, which I apologize for doing so poorly.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
It seems you are suggesting the universe has a loose, but definite structure dependant upon individual abilities. And those who are more skilled dominate over those who are less skilled. Is this it?
The 'structure' of heaven is an interactive. The way you think and feel, how you move toward others....
We have hierarchy in this world. Do you not anticipate some carry over?

I certainly mean no offense to you, so please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't understand what you are saying. Your posts are a bit cryptic. And there is nothing "wrong" with that necessarily, but it is not effective communication, at least not for someone slow and dull like me.
You're too humble.

For example, your indication that you believe in sprititual life is clear, straightforward and understandable. But I get really lost after that.

Who is in charge you ask. (I was being rhetorical) However, didn't you already state somewhere earlier that you believe God, being bigger, stronger, faster and more experienced than everyone else, is in charge?

Next, you ask if there is conflict in heaven. Seems pretty straightforward, and if we reject the conventional notion of heaven as a place of reward, of "Peace in the Valley", then certainly, it is possible that heaven is a place of conflict where we strive to dominate others, or at least challenge others, in order to "fit in", as you put it, closer to God, closer to the top, I suppose. But if that is your view, or something similar to it, then why use the word "heaven"? Heaven implies bliss and happiness. And if you disagree with that, then I think our definitions of certain ideas are so vastly different that we probably wouldn't reach any practical understanding of each other anyway. Which is fine. Doesn't mean we couldn't play darts and have some drinks together sometime. But while I realize there are alternative definitions for the word, "Heaven", such as the skies and/or the firmament--for example: "Look to the heavens and see the eagle soar"--when someone uses it in the context of God's abode, it usually implies something different than what you have envisioned as possible.
One third of the angelic lost their positions in heaven, over an argument, concerning something that looks like you.
Do you assume your spiritual life?

Next, I am really lost on this idea of drawing "kindred spirits" to one's self. Since you have utilized the word, "Karma", I believe that to be some sort of divine justice in which every human thought and/or action brings about a universal response, with good human actions eliciting good universal responses and bad human actions eliciting bad responses from the universe. But how this fits in with all the other, I apologize again for my dullness, but I just don't understand.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you....
is more than a code of behavior....it is fair warning.

Further, you suggest that God is an inactive observer of his creation. Fine, I sort of hold a similar view. I don't see a lot of evidence that God is interacting with mankind or even responding to stimuli from his creations. People claim their illness was miraculously cured by God through prayer, but I've also witnessed people "miraculously" cured from illness without ever imploring God's intervention. While, on the other hand, I've seen people pray endlessly for a cure to an illness only to watch a loved one die anyway. Maybe God answers, but I don't see much evidence of it, not when balanced out by the cases that get absolutely no response from God at all.

However, you seem to imply that if I or any other person is disinclined to an afterlife, then we don't have to endure it. I don't know why anyone would make such a choice, but is that what you're saying? That I can simply choose now or in the future, maybe at the time of death, to forego the afterlife?
The choice isn't mine or yours. They decide who follows....who will not.
But if you don't look forward and perform to an afterlife,
how then to be able to follow?

And one last thing, I don't understand your comment that one shouldn't assume your relationship to other prophets. Does this mean you consider yourself a prophet? And if so, do you mean in the sense that you have divine knowledge of future events? Maybe that is not what you mean by referring to "other" prophets, but if you do believe there are prophets, people who receive divine knowledge of future events, wouldn't that mean that God is not just sitting back as you earlier indicated? Wouldn't that mean God is at least communicating knowledge of the future to some people?
By definition, anyone who speaks for God is a prophet.
But I do not assume I am worthy to stand in their presence.
Picture that I might be taken before a prophet well known.
He might ask....as He looks me in the eye...."What's THIS!"
And the angels that brought me, will excuse themselves....
"He used your Name as if it belonged to him.....We thought he was one of yours."
They will then stand back.
And I will have my day of reckoning with my Lord.

Finally, believe me, I try never to assume anything about anyone, whether on this forum or elsewhere. When I conceded a Biblical model of the universe in an earlier post, it wasn't an effort to better understand your position but it was an effort to better explain mine, which I apologize for doing so poorly.

Does this help?
 
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