The Anti-Semitic Card

[TJ73]

I am kind of hesitant to raise this topic, but I feel it needs addressing. Especially, since I recently had my Gnostic beliefs shot down as being anti-semitic, because I believe the Jewish god is evil. Why is it that every time someone says something that Jews find insulting we're suddenly anti-semites? I mean I've seen this called on the most ridicilous things, like simply criticizing the Jewish religion.

People in general, are sensitive. It is a totaly natural mean of self preservation. If I live in the woods and was attacked by a bear, I would have my ears pricked and be watching for bears. If a bear was nearby and not intending to harm me I might still react ... I am trying to avoid being hurt. What may seem to be Jews or blacks or any other group "playing the race/anti-semetic card" I think is often people just hurting and reacting to past hurt.We have the right to say what we want but compassion is better,IMHO. Just ask someone why they think something is racist or ani-semetic.. may be you will both get a different perspective on each other.

 

[horiturk]

Do you think that you could possibly universalize and oversimplify everything just a little bit more? While you're at it, why not accuse us of owning all the media and scheming to get all the money?

I have said it several times now, and it still bears repeating: you have no qualification to criticize something that you clearly know nothing whatsoever about. You might try reading my posts above on how chosenness doesn't mean what you've just tried to say it means, for starters.

There really has to come a point at which willful ignorance becomes equivalent to mere bigotry.

Not that I'm the world's biggest fan of Orthodoxy, as you know, but in all fairness, the doctrine that you're citing here is hardly embraced by all Orthodox. No Modern Orthodox person I have ever encountered believed it, and most centrist Orthodox folks that I know would absolutely reject such a doctrine. I even know some Haredim (ultra-Orthodox) who would reject it. Sure, I've encountered plenty of Haredim who wouldn't, too, but that still puts the doctrine in question squarely in the category of wide-eyed radical, and not all Orthodox are radical fundamentalists.

firstly,you have zero idea of what i know or do not know....i've never even had a conversation with you. secondly,i'm assyrian....i am not anti semitic in the least. thirdly,my statement is against what is set down in the torah

 

[Harmonious]

thirdly,my statement is against what is set down in the torah

I hear what you are saying. However, Levite is expressing the context.

It isn't a matter of God saying "Kill them all." Or, anything vaguely like that.

It says that God recognized that those particular nations of people were seriously into murder and otherwise violating humanity, and God wanted the Jews to kill these people rather than allow that kind of thing to continue.

It was a one-time thing.

 

[arizol]

firstly,you have zero idea of what i know or do not know....i've never even had a conversation with you. secondly,i'm assyrian....i am not anti semitic in the least. thirdly,my statement is against what is set down in the torah

By the way I never had conversations with you neither and I don't know what you know and what you don't but I can honestly say by looking at your statement my statement is against what is set down in the torah you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

 

[Sunstone]

I've found that anti-semites often take issue with the concept of anti-semitism.

I know, it sounds totally bizarre, but it's true.

Your statement is probably not that fair to those people who are not antisemites but take issue with the common enough practice of labeling anyone who disagrees with Israeli's conservative parties, "antisemitic".

 

[Sunstone]

Criticizing and attacking are different though. Also, a criticism based on ignorance, is different from just criticism.

Calling the Jewish God evil, or a demon god, can be seen as an uninformed attack on their beliefs, and in essence, an attack on them. Especially considering that it is completely ignoring the Jewish perspective, and their understanding of Hebrew scripture. That being so, it is intolerant.

Now, questioning or critiquing the Jewish God, if done in a reasonable fashion, there is no problem. Asking, why does it seem as if the Jewish God is evil, and then respecting the answers, is different than saying, you believe in an evil God, and thus follow an evil God, (which isn't far from calling them evil).

I really don't see why anyone needs to criticize other people's view of God though. I can't prove that the God I believe in is true. I don't even want to try. As far as I know, I could be completely mistaken, and there could be no God. Jews could be wrong, Gnostics could be wrong, etc. The fact is, no one can prove that their idea of God is correct, and thus seems a little ridiculous to attack others understanding of God then; especially since your idea of God could be well off base.

I'm not sure if this is your intention, but you seem to be arguing here that it is not permissible to point out the obvious fact that -- judge by many or even by most contemporary standards -- the god of the old Testament is a repulsive and even an evil character. You further seem to be arguing that anyone who wants to learn what that god is like cannot use their own head and judgment but must "respectfully" accept whatever nonsense is dished out to them by that god's most fervent supporters. And to the extent you are arguing any of that, I think you are grossly mistaken.

 

[Sunstone]

The term "anti-semite" is so often overused and misused that it hardy has any real meaning anymore. If disliking the Jewish god is "anti-semitic", then human decency itself is "anti-semitic". It's silly when people think their religion, race and/or nationality entitles them to reverence or preferential treatment, when the reality is that they're just another ape like the rest of us, no better or worse.

I agree the term "antisemitic" has been -- and continues to be -- so grossly misused that it has lost almost all force of meaning. When I see someone such as Glenn Greenwald called "antisemitic" these days -- usually for the sin of opposing various policies of the Israeli Government or for mentioning there is an influential Israeli Lobby in the US -- I take that much more as a poor reflection on the fairness and accuracy of his accusers than anything else.

 

[Levite]

... the obvious fact that -- judge by many or even by most contemporary standards -- the god of the old Testament is a repulsive and even an evil character....

1. This is not a fact, it is an opinion.

2. It is an opinion clearly based a reading of the text in isolation from the traditional commentaries and theological supplementary materials that are necessary to understand the narratives, the commandments, and the portrayals of God in Torah.

As I believe I have mentioned before, what is offensive is not that others do not care for Jewish theology: non-Jews are not obligated to follow Jewish teachings, or even to like them. What is offensive is the unilateral condemnation of the beliefs of an ancient people known for their voluminous production of textual materials based on an extremely incomplete understanding of those beliefs.

In other words, while it is perfectly fair to say, "Based on what I have learned, I don't care for Jewish theology," it is not fair to say, "The Jewish God is evil," unless one happens to be an extremely learned expert in Jewish text and theology; and perhaps not even then, if one wished to be fair and respectful.

 

[Sunstone]

1. This is not a fact, it is an opinion.

2. It is an opinion clearly based a reading of the text in isolation from the traditional commentaries and theological supplementary materials that are necessary to understand the narratives, the commandments, and the portrayals of God in Torah.

As I believe I have mentioned before, what is offensive is not that others do not care for Jewish theology: non-Jews are not obligated to follow Jewish teachings, or even to like them. What is offensive is the unilateral condemnation of the beliefs of an ancient people known for their voluminous production of textual materials based on an extremely incomplete understanding of those beliefs.

In other words, while it is perfectly fair to say, "Based on what I have learned, I don't care for Jewish theology," it is not fair to say, "The Jewish God is evil," unless one happens to be an extremely learned expert in Jewish text and theology; and perhaps not even then, if one wished to be fair and respectful.

Since when is "the god of the old testament" the "Jewish god"? Aren't you confusing the two?

Second, since when is "The Jewish God is not evil" anything but a mere opinion?

 

[SHMOOVIL]

Just chill. Not all Jews are touchy or paranoid. Maybe you've just been unlucky in coming up against the most political ones. You could try to make a joke next time it happens, to lighten the mood. "You're being anti-Semitic!" "No, I actually love addition!" (SUM-itic.. get it?) haha

 

[Sunstone]

Just chill. Not all Jews are touchy or paranoid. Maybe you've just been unlucky in coming up against the most political ones. You could try to make a joke next time it happens, to lighten the mood. "You're being anti-Semitic!" "No, I actually love addition!" (SUM-itic.. get it?) haha

Too bad I'm out of frubals.

 

[Levite]

Since when is "the god of the old testament" the "Jewish god"? Aren't you confusing the two?

Second, since when is "The Jewish God is not evil" anything but a mere opinion?

The so-called "Old Testament" is the Torah. It is the heart of Jewish scripture, written by Jews, for Jews. Although Jewish theology of course has evolved since Biblical times, and continues to evolve, I think it's not unfair to suppose that when people speak of the God of the Old Testament, what is meant is the Jewish God. If that is not what is meant, then I think it would be more productive to speak of the problems of Biblical theologies (bearing in mind that there is not one consistent theology in the Tanakh, but different authors conceive of God in very different ways).

As for "The Jewish God is not evil," yes, I suppose that is equally an opinion, and could certainly be equally made without thought or proper foundation. However, it is, at least, an opinion which does not offend the people about whom it speaks, and is, at face value, respectful.

I suppose what I would say is that if one wishes to make statements that are offensive to a particular culture or religion, they should be extremely prepared with expert scholarship to support those statements. I agree that, ideally, inoffensive statements ought to be well thought-out also, but if they are not, at least they remain inoffensive.

 

[EverChanging]

As for "The Jewish God is not evil," yes, I suppose that is equally an opinion, and could certainly be equally made without thought or proper foundation. However, it is, at least, an opinion which does not offend the people about whom it speaks, and is, at face value, respectful.

I care less about whether a statement offends someone than if it is reasonable. That being said, I agree with most everything you say. I am still in the very, very beginning stages of learning about Judaism, but I know enough about the Bible (including the Christian scriptures) to know that most comments skeptics and Christians alike make about the Hebrew scriptures and Judaism are grossly misinformed and simplistic.

The text cannot be considered in isolation from its tradition. The scriptures are only a small part of a greater tradition; this is true of the Hebrew scriptures as much as the Christian scriptures.

 

[Sunstone]

The so-called "Old Testament" is the Torah. It is the heart of Jewish scripture, written by Jews, for Jews. Although Jewish theology of course has evolved since Biblical times, and continues to evolve, I think it's not unfair to suppose that when people speak of the God of the Old Testament, what is meant is the Jewish God. If that is not what is meant, then I think it would be more productive to speak of the problems of Biblical theologies (bearing in mind that there is not one consistent theology in the Tanakh, but different authors conceive of God in very different ways).

As for "The Jewish God is not evil," yes, I suppose that is equally an opinion, and could certainly be equally made without thought or proper foundation. However, it is, at least, an opinion which does not offend the people about whom it speaks, and is, at face value, respectful.

I suppose what I would say is that if one wishes to make statements that are offensive to a particular culture or religion, they should be extremely prepared with expert scholarship to support those statements. I agree that, ideally, inoffensive statements ought to be well thought-out also, but if they are not, at least they remain inoffensive.

This side debate will go nowhere since I do not accept any of your premises, and do not think you even adequately understand my position. We'll just have to disagree.

 

[Caladan]

The so-called "Old Testament" is the Torah. It is the heart of Jewish scripture, written by Jews, for Jews. Although Jewish theology of course has evolved since Biblical times, and continues to evolve, I think it's not unfair to suppose that when people speak of the God of the Old Testament, what is meant is the Jewish God. If that is not what is meant, then I think it would be more productive to speak of the problems of Biblical theologies (bearing in mind that there is not one consistent theology in the Tanakh, but different authors conceive of God in very different ways).

As for "The Jewish God is not evil," yes, I suppose that is equally an opinion, and could certainly be equally made without thought or proper foundation. However, it is, at least, an opinion which does not offend the people about whom it speaks, and is, at face value, respectful.

I suppose what I would say is that if one wishes to make statements that are offensive to a particular culture or religion, they should be extremely prepared with expert scholarship to support those statements. I agree that, ideally, inoffensive statements ought to be well thought-out also, but if they are not, at least they remain inoffensive.

Several good points here. I think for the most part Jewish members have been more than fair with people of various belief systems here. whether these belief systems might seem completely odd in Jewish tradition, from neo-paganism to Satanism, etc.
the mentality seems to have been focused on live and let live as a standard and even discussions of various interests. if a member starts a thread with a provocative title or content, they should expect a counter reaction. if they cannot handle the arguments against them, they should think twice whether they want to provoke certain groups.
I've always been amused throughout my school days by bullies who have not thought of the possibility of a guy actually striking back and making them look small infront of their friends.
If a person has the uncontrolled desire to post demeaning comments about Jewish tradition, that person should be ready to face with the fact that Jews may view the Hebrew scriptures very differently than various Christian denominations. the image the member has would simply not fit with the Jewish analysis of the scriptures. if a person thinks its legitimate to tell members of the Jewish faith that the deity they worship is 'evil', I don't find it surprising that a Jewish member in a certain mood might also happen to think its legitimate to tell that member what they think of his opinion.
I have strong atheistic tendencies. however the comment 'the Jewish God is evil' does not make sense. it is bordering the bizarre for a non Jewish person to have that kind of obsession and sense of being threatened. the Bible has anything from cruelty to erotica, to love poems, to justice, to the brotherhood of man, to the leadership of women. many Jews view the Jewish scriptures as the work of Jewish men, therefore, if a member is quoting very specific verses to make his 'thesis' of the evil of the Jewish scriptures, I expect this member to be exposed of their ignorance of the other great portions of the same Jewish scriptures which inspired Shakespeare, William Blake, Poe, Dylan, and Cohen.
really, if someone can't take the heat. simply save precious forum time, and do not walk into the kitchen. there are people with degrees there, making chicken soup with matza balls.

 

[Harmonious]

Several good points here. I think for the most part Jewish members have been more than fair with people of various belief systems here. whether these belief systems might seem completely odd in Jewish tradition, from neo-paganism to Satanism, etc.
the mentality has seem to have been focused on live and let live as a standard and even discussions of various interests. if a member starts a thread with a provocative title or content, they should expect a counter reaction. if they cannot handle the arguments against them, they should think twice whether they want to provoke certain groups.
I've always been amused throughout my school days by bullies who have not thought of the possibility of a guy actually striking back and making them look small infront of their friends.
If a person has the uncontrolled desire to post demeaning comments about Jewish tradition, that person should be ready to face with the fact that Jews may view the Hebrew scriptures very differently than various Christian denominations. the image the member has would simply not fit with the Jewish analysis of the scriptures. if a person thinks its legitimate to tell members of the Jewish faith that the deity they worship is 'evil', I don't find it surprising that a Jewish member in a certain mood might also happen to think its legitimate to tell that member what they think of his opinion.
I have strong atheistic tendencies. however the comment 'the Jewish God is evil' does not make sense. it is bordering the bizarre for a non Jewish person to have that kind of obsession and sense of being threatened. the Bible has anything from cruelty to erotica, to love poems, to justice, to the brotherhood of man, to the leadership of women. many Jews view the Jewish scriptures as the work of Jewish men, therefore, if a member is quoting very specific verses to make his 'thesis' of the evil of the Jewish scriptures, I expect this member to be exposed of their ignorance of the other great portions of the same Jewish scriptures which inspired Shakespeare, William Blake, Poe, Dylan, and Cohen.
really, if someone can't take the heat. simply save precious forum time, and do not walk into the kitchen. there are people with degrees there, making chicken soup with matza balls.

That was beautifully said.

 

[Caladan]

That was beautifully said.

Thank you. I guess I was 'in the mood' and inspired