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The Appeal to Order and Intelligent Agency

Mark Charles Compton

Pineal Peruser
Within the film The Matrix, the machines reveal their attempt at creating a 'perfect' simulation ended up in a massive failure, as if the lack of conflict collapsed to become an insurmountable conflict of its own.

There may be something to such an idea. Perhaps, the chaos that we see lurking in the distance of the universe, was created and is maintained in an orderly fashion.

Who knows? I sure don't. It was just a thought. :)
 

Mark Charles Compton

Pineal Peruser
I mean that because such things as radioactive decay and so on are random it is conceivably possible that if we were to re-wind time and let the universe play out again it may have formed differently (or not at all).

In my opinion.

But are those things truly random, or are we just not able to measure it yet?

If I'm not mistaken, the apparent randomness in our universe, is actually a Gaussian distribution, as depicted in the image of the CMB... At least that's one camp, and they have mathematics, real world applications, and confirmed predictions that support their claims.

On the other hand, Roger Penrose would seem to think it's more of a non-repeating pattern. His conformal cyclical cosmology theory is yet to be put to the screws to see if it holds up as well as his colleagues' multiverse theories.

In fact, only very specific things are possible within ANY given or chosen situation or circumstance. And very often only ONE result is possible (determinism). Chance is actually quite rare.

I feel like you may be underestimating chance, or maybe just the quantity of possible and probable qualia, at least a little. Just an opinion... There's a good chance I'm mistaken.

If you care to know, I feel this way due to my perception of the uncanny behavior of quantum particles such as fermions, particularly at extreme conditions or in high energy collisions. The aforementioned multiverse theories for example, would claim that there are an infinite number of possible ways any given wave function could have collapsed at any point in history (or moving forward for that matter) which could have had wildly different results than that which we observe. :shrug:
 
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Alien826

No religious beliefs
Is perfection the way things are, or is it the way they ought to be according to a specific set of criteria? If the latter, then I don't see how existence merely being the way it is implies it is the perfect order.

I've always had a problem with the way "perfect" is typically used. In a sense, everything is "perfectly" what it is, and if you change it it will be perfectly that too. Of course people never mean that, it would be silly, but to me it illustrates the weakness of the word. Perfection can never have any meaning unless you also answer the question "perfectly what?".
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Confronted with these seemingly insurmountable dilemmas, in order to go on living a meaningful existence, we must have faith; without faith, we end up like Camus’ protagonist in The Outsider - completely lost, in a world where morality and motive are entirely subjective.

Leo Tolstoy, writing just over a century ago, observed that the greatest superstition of the modern age, was the superstitious belief that man can live without faith.

But what is "meaningful"? Take any particular object and ten observers. You will have ten meanings assigned to it. Remove all the observers and there is no meaning because meaning is subjective. I suppose you can add another subjective factor, faith, if it helps to form meaning in your mind, but I don't see that as absolutely necessary.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
I've always had a problem with the way "perfect" is typically used. In a sense, everything is "perfectly" what it is, and if you change it it will be perfectly that too. Of course people never mean that, it would be silly, but to me it illustrates the weakness of the word. Perfection can never have any meaning unless you also answer the question "perfectly what?".

Well, maybe it has something to do with an object being equalized and stabilized. Take the color red, they say it is a mix between orange and purple, right? From there, figuring out the perfect red is pure mathematics, you just find the midpoint. That midpoint would unarguably represent objective red.
 

Mark Charles Compton

Pineal Peruser
Well, maybe it has something to do with an object being equalized and stabilized. Take the color red, they say it is a mix between orange and purple, right? From there, figuring out the perfect red is pure mathematics, you just find the midpoint. That midpoint would unarguably represent objective red.
In regard to your specific example; Did you know most humans are trichromatic (3 types of photoreceptor cone cells) while a small percentage are tetrachromatic (4 types). With more cone cells, the different shades of color are more pronounced. To a standard trichromat, 'perfection' might stretch across a range of shades, shades that they cannot differentiate between while a tetrachromat would clearly see demarcation lines between those distinct shades.

If you ask me, perfection is by and large a subjective experience.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
In regard to your specific example; Did you know most humans are trichromatic (3 types of photoreceptor cone cells) while a small percentage are tetrachromatic (4 types). With more cone cells, the different shades of color are more pronounced. To a standard trichromat, 'perfection' might stretch across a range of shades, shades that they cannot differentiate between while a tetrachromat would clearly see demarcation lines between those distinct shades.

If you ask me, perfection is by and large a subjective experience.

It depends: when nature does that, would you say that it's making a radical, non symmetrical alteration, or is getting more definitive with a subject? If it is actually getting more definitive, then I guess technically the resolution increases. I guess what is subjective, is the fact that the organism can seem to do well without the alteration. I'm sure people can live fine without seeing those other shades
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I accept that there are physical and logical laws, yes. To not accept that would be an utter denial of established scientific and logical facts.

However, whether these laws constitute a "perfect" or otherwise optimal order is a different story. I have no reference against which I can judge this universe's setup as such, and I couldn't have even existed if I hadn't evolved in accordance with the physical laws of our universe. Even the concept of "order" itself is arguably relative, and the most common reference we have is our limited perception.
Ah, but that is moving the goalposts, somewhat, surely? No one is speaking of "perfect" or "optimal" order, so far as I know, are they? In the JudaeoChristian tradition, at least, there is imperfection due to the fallibility and weakness of mankind.

As for the order being relative, relative to what? What we sometimes call the "laws of nature" (which are models developed by various mean and women and often named after them) reflect something exquisitely predictable about nature that seems to be objectively there. So that is evidence of objective order, I'd have thought.
 

Mark Charles Compton

Pineal Peruser
I'm sure people can live fine without seeing those other shades
Absolutely. I'm pretty sure it was fairly recently that we even discovered that some individuals (I believe mostly female) have higher sensitivity for color detection.
I'm not sure if it would provide any benefits at all, perhaps someone in the visual arts would find it useful having the condition, but isn't art supposed to be for the perceiver and how it affects them? Either way, I definitely find it intriguing even though I do not think I possess the trait myself. I would like to know what the difference is between their view of the world, and my own.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Ah, but that is moving the goalposts, somewhat, surely? No one is speaking of "perfect" or "optimal" order, so far as I know, are they? In the JudaeoChristian tradition, at least, there is imperfection due to the fallibility and weakness of mankind.

As for the order being relative, relative to what? What we sometimes call the "laws of nature" (which are models developed by various mean and women and often named after them) reflect something exquisitely predictable about nature that seems to be objectively there. So that is evidence of objective order, I'd have thought.

I have encountered the "perfect order" argument on multiple occasions, mainly from Muslims and Christians. Usually, the underlying assumption is that universal laws are perfect partially or mainly because they have allowed life and "complex design." I find that line of reasoning to be in the wrong order (no pun intended), though: I believe that since we have evolved in accordance with universal laws, we're the ones whose existence or "design" is centered around them, not the other way around.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
I've always had a problem with the way "perfect" is typically used. In a sense, everything is "perfectly" what it is, and if you change it it will be perfectly that too. Of course people never mean that, it would be silly, but to me it illustrates the weakness of the word. Perfection can never have any meaning unless you also answer the question "perfectly what?".


How about a perfect circle? It’s not a difficult concept to grasp, but does one exist anywhere in nature?
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
But what is "meaningful"? Take any particular object and ten observers. You will have ten meanings assigned to it. Remove all the observers and there is no meaning because meaning is subjective. I suppose you can add another subjective factor, faith, if it helps to form meaning in your mind, but I don't see that as absolutely necessary.


Yeah, meaning is essentially something that is ascribed by a conscious observer, and is therefore a function of consciousness.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
How about a perfect circle? It’s not a difficult concept to grasp, but does one exist anywhere in nature?

No. The universe is essentially granular. We can describe a perfect circle mathematically, but that's it. That applies to most math I would think.

Now I'm not sure what we are discussing.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
No. The universe is essentially granular. We can describe a perfect circle mathematically, but that's it. That applies to most math I would think.

Now I'm not sure what we are discussing.


We were discussing what is meant by perfection. So I offered the example of a perfect circle, because even if it only exists as an abstraction, it’s perfectly clear what the concept is.
 
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Mark Charles Compton

Pineal Peruser
How about a perfect circle? It’s not a difficult concept to grasp, but does one exist anywhere in nature?
How about a perfect circle? It’s not a difficult concept to grasp, but does one exist anywhere in nature?
What are the rules? Does the circle have to persist through a duration of time?

Statistically, I would say that at some point in the past, or somewhere in the future, for at least a Planck length of time there has been or will be some matter¹ or qualia that is in the shape of a circle which measures the same distance r from its center point. Either on the large cosmic scale or the small quantum scale. If the shape has to persist... We couldn't measure it anyway, so I give up looking. :D

¹Edit: added "matter"
 
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RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
What are the rules? Does the circle have to persist through a duration of time?

Statistically, I would say that at some point in the past, or somewhere in the future, for at least a Planck length of time there has been or will be some matter¹ or qualia that is in the shape of a circle which measures the same distance r from its center point. Either on the large cosmic scale or the small quantum scale. If the shape has to persist... We couldn't measure it anyway, so I give up looking. :D

¹Edit: added "matter"


I’d say the perfect circle would have to persist for just long enough to be defined as such. How long that would have to be, would depend on the observer; which brings us back to the role of consciousness in determining what is real.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Marbles clattering down an inclined plane with a grid of pegs inhibiting their course. When one of the marbles encounters a peg with the forces influencing it's travel to one side or the other of the peg being close enough to equal that the gravity pulling it downward overwhelms the influences moving it to one side of the peg or the other, it will fall to either side with equal likelihood. Chance will then dictate to which side of the peg it drops.
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
Faith is required, if for nothing else, to overcome solipsism. You confirm this yourself when you state, without equivocation, that reality has priority over consciousness. I note that you don’t distinguish between internal and external reality, but I assume you mean the latter? A Monist would argue that they are inseparable, but that is another question really.

I disagree that solipsism is relevant here.

At the very least, I can conclude through inductive reasoning that the self-consistent "world" which I perceive with my senses is not one that I have control over, and so it still makes sense to refer to it as "external" even under metaphysical solipsism.

When you accept that there is this world outside of your control, you can use observation to gain data about this external world and logically analyze that data. That's how I came to conclude that the natural world predates my existence and that my experience of it is merely an abstraction of the biological signals in my nervous system.

Whether you accept solipsism or, as I do, naturalism, the methodology is the same and so is the conclusion.

Anyway, in dismissing as magical thinking the uncomfortable idea that consciousness, however we define it, may come before reality, you are making a leap of faith; you trust in the existence of a world independent of your perception of it. And you trust, it seems, in logic and reason to help you under something of that reality. It is but a small step from faith in logic and reason,

I trust in logic, but I don't have faith in it. Logic is a self-correcting mechanism, so it is constantly questioning and re-evaluating its own conclusions in the face of new premises and counter-arguments.

I think faith in logic would probably look more like the verificationism of Logical Positivism, which I do not ascribe to.

It is but a small step from faith in logic and reason, to faith in the proposition that we are each part of something far greater than ourselves, and that some great and incomprehensible (to us) purpose underlies all.

You could describe us as all as being a part of something far greater than ourselves, but logic can't get you there alone because "greater" is an evaluative claim, not a factual one. Logic is limited in the sense that it cannot bridge the gap between facts and values.

It can judge whether something meets a given set of criteria or deductively follows from a given set of assumed premises, which we see in axiology as applied in mathematics, statistics, ethics, aesthetics, etc. However, those axioms do not derive from logic.

I do find value and meaning in logic. That said, finding meaning in logic seems to me to have very little to do with having faith in anything, especially that there is a great and incomprehensible purpose that underlies all. I actually think the proper application of logic is outright at odds with faith, and the two are completely opposed methodologies, since most forms of faith that I've seen espoused are considered some form of logical fallacy.

The only exception to that, which I've seen in common use, is when faith is used synonymously with trust. If that's the sense you mean by faith, then you're probably correct: the majority of people have some degree of trust in something. I just don't see how you're getting from that to believing in God.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
We were discussing what is meant by perfection. So I offered the example of a perfect circle, because even if it only exists as an abstraction, it’s perfectly clear what the concept is.

Oh yes.

What I was saying is that when we talk about perfection, we have to specify in what respect it is perfect. The circle is a good example. A perfect circle would be perfectly round. I'm sure there's a better way of saying that mathematically, but that will do. And as you say there can be no object in the real world that achieves that perfection, though we can specify it mathematically.

Or can we? Would we need a perfect value for π? Maybe one of our resident mathematicians can answer that.
 
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