I've been watching a lot of religious debates recently, and often times people like William Lane Craig and Frank Turek will argue that without God there are no moral "oughts"; they claim that objective moral values do not exist without God because death is final and everyone ends up in the same place. They assume that without God you can't say whether anything is right or wrong--its just particles in motion.
But this argument is awful for several reasons. For starters, this argument pretends that people aren't choosing a morality and that it is absolutely determined by what Christopher Hitchens would call a celestial dictatorship. But that just depends on your society, culture, interpretation, mood, etc. You select the God and interpretation that aligns with your moral values and so its really no different than an atheist selecting their moral values to work best in society. So you can't say whether anything is right or wrong either because you would have an entirely different morality in bronze age Palestine, or if you grew up in North Korea. If morality is relative anyways, then the concept of moral oughts are ultimately fallacious; its all a matter of perspective and interpretation regardless if you believe or dont which really means the difference is moot.
As WLC would ask, "How do you know rape is wrong?"
I would say its wrong because a society of empowered, free women is much more effective and pleasant, and rape is a sinister attack on that. WLC would reply, but how do you know that's wrong? You're just responding to societal pressures and laws as well as evolutionary changes. I would then rebuttal him by saying that he's also just responding to social pressures because if you lived in bronze age Palestine then its very possible you would think rape is okay since you'd fallaciously believe women are inferior. Morality is relative whether you believe in religion or not in conclusion, and therefore means objective morality doesn't exist. All that exists is a secular, utilitarian analysis of society that tells us how to create the most effective, pleasant society as possible. Most religious people adopt secular standards anyways because you certainly wouldn't want to take morals from Leviticus, or the old testament, and or exodus.
Serp777,
I hate to say this, but to me your thinking is pure dereism.
The The Creator has the right to set laws for His creation. Think about this; no one knows what is best for a person that the one who created him.
The idea that people cannot judge right without the Bible is wrong according to the Bible itself. Consider Rom 2:13-16. Here the scriptures show that some, who do not have law of God, still try to do right because of conscience, and will be judges as a law abided.
But there is much more that that. Only by a diligent study of God's word, can a person understand what is Good oak bad to God. If a person is judged as righteous who does not KNOW God, he will then be required to learn much more about God's requirements. This will take place during the One Thousand Year Judgment Day, which will run at the same time that Satan in locked up in the abyss, Rev 20:1-10.
All of the laws that God gave mankind were given for our own good, Deut 10:13, Isa 48:17. The Bible tells us that we do not know the right way to go, Jere 10:23. In fact the way that might seem to be right can very well end up in death, Pr 14:12, 16:25.
Since we cannot know what the future holds for each of us, it is very wise to follow Gods rules, because He wants the best for the creation that He loves so much that He allowed His precious to sacrifice his life so that we can live.
Think about it; if you were going through a very dangerous place, would you want someone who knows the way to lead you?? Well, God knows the way!!! It is very wise on all our parts to find out what God wants us to do so that we have the opportunity to live in the Paradise earth that God will soon send His son to create.
