The Atonement Doctrine (Did Jesus Die For Our Sins?)

[Ben Avraham]

If Jesus was opposed to sacrifice, why is it the central theme in Christianity? Why was it necessary for a human to be sacrificed???

That's a very good question, Milton. I'll be on my feet for the answer.

 

[moorea944]

If Jesus was opposed to sacrifice, why is it the central theme in Christianity? Why was it necessary for a human to be sacrificed???

If Jesus was opposed to sacrifice, why is it the central theme in Christianity? Why was it necessary for a human to be sacrificed???

The answer is actually an easy one. The Messiah had to be a man like us, meaning in nature. He had to conquer sin, or sin in the flesh. By dying, he showed us that God is right in that sin or sin nature has to be put to death. God raised him on the third day because he committed no sin. When he was raised he became immortal. He showed us that way, he is the "firstfruits" to the resurrection and immortality.

That is why baptism is so important, Romans 6, we die with him, symbollically, and we are raised with him. Who better to sit on the right hand of God in Heaven as our mediator. Someone that can sympathise with our weakness. Christ overcoming temptation because his father and God was working through him.

Why did Christ have to be baptised? He committed no sin. He did it because it made God right. Right in the way that we have to put our nature to death. Christ showed us that way and how to follow him.

 

[whirlingmerc]

There are various types of sacrifices as well

Psalm 141:2
Let my prayer be counted as incense before you, and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice!

 

[Ben Avraham]

There are various types of sacrifices as well.lPsalm 141:2
Let my prayer be counted as incense before you, and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice!

I agree with you Whirlingmerc. Even as a Jew, I have never been too friendly with the ritual of animal sacrifices. If you read Jeremiah 7:22, HaShem never commanded that sacrifices be part of the religion of Israel. They were adopted because, after 430 years of many generations, the Israelites got used to watch daily sacrifices in Egypt and required nothing less for themselves. Moses must have realized that the Exodus would be closed to impossible if the Israelites did not have a religion like the one of the Egyptians. So, he made use of Pichuach Nephesh and adopted the sacrifices. Due to the credibility that Moses enjoyed with HaShem, the Lord must have allowed him to make full use of His name to embellish the sacrifices and the Exodus came through. However, the sacrifices turned out to be rather the cause of most troubles in Israel. I do dream with the rebuilding of the Temple but to function as the mother of all the Synagogues throughout the world. A gigantic Yeshiva to teach Torah to the whole world.

 

[pearl]

There are 613 Commandments

But these were not the 'Ten Words' given to Moses which Israel carried into Exile, they returned with 613.

 

[pearl]

One big problem with Christianity is this notion of a human sacrifice. God made it clear to Abraham, that He doesn't want human sacrifice when Abe tried to kill his son.

There is another theory offered by the German biblical scholar Hartmut Gese that the todah stands behind what Jesus did at the Last Supper.

(1 Chron. 16:40-41
"In the coming Messeanic age all sacrifices will cease, but the thank offering (todah) will never cease." The todah sacrifice of the Old Testament was not a sin offering and did not include atonement for sin as part of its function.

 

[MJFlores]

In my opinion, my Lord Jesus died for many but not for the world. Below is the prayer of my Lord Jesus Christ to his Father.

John 17 New International Version (NIV)

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

“I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

“Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

Wasn't that beautiful? Now to the main question - The Atonement Doctrine (Did Jesus Die For Our Sins?)

Well, it really depends where you are coming from.

Ephesians 1:7 New International Version (NIV)

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace.

If you are not In him - then Ephesians 1:7 does not apply to you therefore...

 

[metis]

But these were not the 'Ten Words' given to Moses which Israel carried into Exile, they returned with 613.

According to the Torah, all 613 Commandments were given to Moses at Sinai, whereas the first Ten were written on the tablets and the remaining 603 were gradually disclosed by Moses prior to their arrival at Canaan. See: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) Moshe made it clear that all of these were from God.

 

[Aberamentho]

Obviously if Baptism of water is for forgiveness of sins, according to Jesus (pbwh) then there is no vicarious atonement or need for it.
Senseless man...
Faith without works is dead.

James the Zadikk

 

[Aberamentho]

According to the Torah, all 613 Commandments were given to Moses at Sinai, whereas the first Ten were written on the tablets and the remaining 603 were gradually disclosed by Moses prior to their arrival at Canaan. See: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) Moshe made it clear that all of these were from God.

The Torah never uses that number.

And no official list exists of exactly what the 613 are. Lists exist but none universally accepted.

It's a load of Halakha nonsense. While we are at it, Noahide laws, they can shove them where shemash don't shine.

 

[metis]

The Torah never uses that number.

And no official list exists of exactly what the 613 are. Lists exist but none universally accepted.

.

Yes, and if my memory is correct, it was the RAMBAM (Maimonides) who actually tabulated the number of Commandments.

But why do you refer to it as "Halakha nonsense"? If anything, one would have to more precisely use the terminology "Torah nonsense", although that's certainly not my choice of words nor what I believe.

 

[rosends]

The Torah never uses that number.

And no official list exists of exactly what the 613 are. Lists exist but none universally accepted.

It's a load of Halakha nonsense. While we are at it, Noahide laws, they can shove them where shemash don't shine.

The Torah also never mentions Jesus or Mohammed and there is no consensus about their existence and particular attributes so they are both a similar load of nonsense.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Obviously if Baptism of water is for forgiveness of sins, according to Jesus (pbwh) then there is no vicarious atonement or need for it. Senseless man...Faith without works is dead. James the Zadikk

Yes, and faith without the works of the Law is like a body without the breath of life; dead, if you wanna know what James meant. (James 2:26)

 

[Ben Avraham]

In my opinion, my Lord Jesus died for many but not for the world. Below is the prayer of my Lord Jesus Christ to his Father.

John 17 New International Version (NIV)

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

“I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

“Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

Wasn't that beautiful? Now to the main question - The Atonement Doctrine (Did Jesus Die For Our Sins?)

Well, it really depends where you are coming from.

Ephesians 1:7 New International Version (NIV)

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace.

If you are not In him - then Ephesians 1:7 does not apply to you therefore...

Jesus was a learnt Jew and, he was well aware of the teachings of the prophets that no one can die for the sins of another. (Ezekiel 18:4,20)

 

[Milton Platt]

The answer is actually an easy one. The Messiah had to be a man like us, meaning in nature. He had to conquer sin, or sin in the flesh. By dying, he showed us that God is right in that sin or sin nature has to be put to death. God raised him on the third day because he committed no sin. When he was raised he became immortal. He showed us that way, he is the "firstfruits" to the resurrection and immortality.

That is why baptism is so important, Romans 6, we die with him, symbollically, and we are raised with him. Who better to sit on the right hand of God in Heaven as our mediator. Someone that can sympathise with our weakness. Christ overcoming temptation because his father and God was working through him.

Why did Christ have to be baptised? He committed no sin. He did it because it made God right. Right in the way that we have to put our nature to death. Christ showed us that way and how to follow him.

Doesn't really hold water. I don't see how anyone can bend a knee to a being that would design a system that would require that a person would have to be tortured, and left to die hanging on a wooden cross. It's absolutely morbid. This is the Biblical debate forum, so I won't comment on that further and antagonize everyone, but just had to ask.

 

[Milton Platt]

IMV Jesus was not opposed to sacrifice. As to why it was necessary for The Word, Jesus, to be sacrificed, is because God is the only entity that was solvent enough to absorbed bankrupt humanity and still be solvent. It had to be as a man because God initiated from the beginning that man was the legal door for authority on earth.

Can't swallow that at all. "Bankruptcy" and "Solvency" aren't words that even make any sense in this conversation. We are talking about a being that on the one hand can simply speak the universe into existence, but on the other hand, the best he can come up with regarding the human race is to have them kill animals for a few thousand years, and finally torture and kill a human being by having him nailed on a wooden cross until he finally died of shock an/or bleed out. It's barbaric.

 

[Kenny]

Can't swallow that at all. "Bankruptcy" and "Solvency" aren't words that even make any sense in this conversation. We are talking about a being that on the one hand can simply speak the universe into existence, but on the other hand, the best he can come up with regarding the human race is to have them kill animals for a few thousand years, and finally torture and kill a human being by having him nailed on a wooden cross until he finally died of shock an/or bleed out. It's barbaric.

I don't agree. (And I think the bankruptcy analogy is quite understandable).

In Christian understanding, blood covenants is what God used from the time of Adam.

Laying one's life for the life of another has been accepted throughout history. And apparently "the best He can come up with" was good enough. Sorry it doesn't match your standards, but then again, you aren't the standard.

 

[Milton Platt]

I don't agree. (And I think the bankruptcy analogy is quite understandable).

In Christian understanding, blood covenants is what God used from the time of Adam.

Laying one's life for the life of another has been accepted throughout history. And apparently "the best He can come up with" was good enough. Sorry it doesn't match your standards, but then again, you aren't the standard.

He did not give his life, according to Christianity. Otherwise he would still be dead.

 

[MJFlores]

He did not give his life, according to Christianity. Otherwise he would still be dead.

Well, my Lord Jesus gave his life as he said it:

For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Mark 10:45

And then the Lord God Almighty raised my Lord Jesus Christ from the dead:

But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. Acts 2:24

And now the Lord Jesus is seated at the right hand of God:

Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is,seated at the right hand of God. Colossians 3:1

 

[Kenny]

He did not give his life, according to Christianity. Otherwise he would still be dead.

No, I don't agree.

When a soldier gives his life he is dead. (His body). But, in Christian parlance, he still lives.

He, Jesus, gave His life as a man--like unto Adam and thus called the second Adam--to get back what Adam lost under the same legal authority.