The Atonement is the important part - Not the Crusifixion

[madhatter85]

I would liek to takea minute to point out a fact that alot of christians seem to misplace or take for granted.

The Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ was martyred for the sins of the world. He did not take upon the sins of the world on the cross. The way he died is basically irrelevant to the glory of the plan of salvation. He could have been martyred any other way and still performed this great act of sacrifice.

The moment he actually atoned for our sins was the time he suffered in the Garden of Gethsemene. We can not begin to understand the torment and pain that would cause a person to bleed from every pore in thier body. To take upon all the sins of the world at that moment is something that is incomprehensible to me, but for which i am exceedingly greatful.

Alot of people believe they are "Saved by the Cross." this is a false statement. they are truely saved through the great Atonement and Repentance.

 

[sojourner]

If you believe in substitutionary atonement...

 

[joeboonda]

Romans 10
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.


Romans 5:10...we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son...
Ephesians 2:16
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross...
Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself...
Isaiah 53:12
...because he hath poured out his soul unto death...and he bare the sin of many...
Hebrews 2:14
...that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, thatby means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 9:16
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh...
Romans 5:6
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how thatChrist died for our sins according to the scriptures;

 

[madhatter85]

Of course they prophesied he would die on a cross, cause that's what actually happened. but that's not where emphasis should be put.

 

[joeboonda]

Romans 10
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.


Romans 5:10...we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son...
Ephesians 2:16
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross...
Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself...
Isaiah 53:12
...because he hath poured out his soul unto death...and he bare the sin of many...
Hebrews 2:14
...that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, thatby means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 9:16
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh...
Romans 5:6
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how thatChrist died for our sins according to the scriptures;
__________________
Jesus loves you, no matter what...and there's nothing you can do about it.

 

[sojourner]

And the proof-texting goes on...

 

[doppelganger]

Isn't community (or more specifically "communion")"the important part"?

 

[nutshell]

I would liek to takea minute to point out a fact that alot of christians seem to misplace or take for granted.

The Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ was martyred for the sins of the world. He did not take upon the sins of the world on the cross. The way he died is basically irrelevant to the glory of the plan of salvation. He could have been martyred any other way and still performed this great act of sacrifice.

The moment he actually atoned for our sins was the time he suffered in the Garden of Gethsemene. We can not begin to understand the torment and pain that would cause a person to bleed from every pore in thier body. To take upon all the sins of the world at that moment is something that is incomprehensible to me, but for which i am exceedingly greatful.

Alot of people believe they are "Saved by the Cross." this is a false statement. they are truely saved through the great Atonement and Repentance.

Wrong.

He suffered in the Garden and on the Cross for the sins, etc. of the world. A double dipping of sorts.

To Mormons who know their doctrine, why did Christ need to be double dipped? Was one time not enough?

 

[joeboonda]

And the proof-texting goes on...

I made my point without a word, only scripture, make your point USING scripture to back it up and I may listen.

 

[sojourner]

I made my point without a word, only scripture, make your point USING scripture to back it up and I may listen.

OK...What point did you make?
Disparate bits of scripture strung together for...what reason?

 

[joeboonda]

OK...What point did you make?
Disparate bits of scripture strung together for...what reason?

These scriptures say something, do you know what? Or can you give scriptures that show otherwise? Or are you just gonna say we cannot understand them and offer no explanation as to what they mean? I suppose you believe they are just all out of context and mean nothing since they are from different places. Go to those places and look at the context, they mean exactly what they mean: WE WERE RECONCILED TO GOD BY THE DEATH OF HIS SON. It says it over and over throughout the Bible. Prove otherwise USING SCRIPTURE.

Romans 10
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.


Romans 5:10...we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son...
Ephesians 2:16
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross...
Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself...
Isaiah 53:12
...because he hath poured out his soul unto death...and he bare the sin of many...
Hebrews 2:14
...that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, thatby means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 9:16
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh...
Romans 5:6
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how thatChrist died for our sins according to the scriptures;

 

[madhatter85]

These scriptures say something, do you know what? Or can you give scriptures that show otherwise? Or are you just gonna say we cannot understand them and offer no explanation as to what they mean? I suppose you believe they are just all out of context and mean nothing since they are from different places. Go to those places and look at the context, they mean exactly what they mean: WE WERE RECONCILED TO GOD BY THE DEATH OF HIS SON. It says it over and over throughout the Bible. Prove otherwise USING SCRIPTURE.

Romans 10
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.


Romans 5:10...we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son...
Ephesians 2:16
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross...
Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself...
Isaiah 53:12
...because he hath poured out his soul unto death...and he bare the sin of many...
Hebrews 2:14
...that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, thatby means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 9:16
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh...
Romans 5:6
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how thatChrist died for our sins according to the scriptures;

The scriptures you quoted only affirm that he needed to die for the world, that he died on the cross, and that's how he woudl die ect... ect... but it is proven that he took upon the sins of the world and suffered before then.

The point is, it doesn't matter how he died, the fact that he did die is what mattered, and the prophets of old before him prophesied that is how he would die. But, the actual suffering of the Atonement happened in the garden, The pain and sufferign on the cross was merely the pain and suffering of being crusified (which is a horrible way to die) but it was a VERY common public showing of execution back then.



Christians put emphasis on the cross and none on the actual atonement. which is sad, because the atonement is what mattered, HOW he was martyred does not matter.

 

[nutshell]

the actual suffering of the Atonement happened in the garden, The pain and sufferign on the cross was merely the pain and suffering of being crusified (which is a horrible way to die) but it was a VERY common public showing of execution back then.

WRONG.

Your own religion teaches that he suffered for the sins,etc. of the world at BOTH the Garden and the cross.

 

[sojourner]

These scriptures say something, do you know what? Or can you give scriptures that show otherwise? Or are you just gonna say we cannot understand them and offer no explanation as to what they mean? I suppose you believe they are just all out of context and mean nothing since they are from different places. Go to those places and look at the context, they mean exactly what they mean: WE WERE RECONCILED TO GOD BY THE DEATH OF HIS SON. It says it over and over throughout the Bible. Prove otherwise USING SCRIPTURE.

Romans 10
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.


Romans 5:10...we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son...
Ephesians 2:16
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross...
Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself...
Isaiah 53:12
...because he hath poured out his soul unto death...and he bare the sin of many...
Hebrews 2:14
...that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, thatby means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 9:16
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh...
Romans 5:6
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how thatChrist died for our sins according to the scriptures;

I wish I had the physical time to adequately answer you. However, life being what it is right now... I'll get back to this topic later, when I do have sufficient time to deal with it, because it deserves my attention.

 

[madhatter85]

WRONG.

Your own religion teaches that he suffered for the sins,etc. of the world at BOTH the Garden and the cross.

I'm not denying the fact that he suffered for us, if you wan to while we're at it he suffered everything that happened in between those two crucial points. Carrying the cross, getting whipped, being in prison and a multitude of other things that happened to him.
but you don't see people talkign about that stuff nearly as much as the cross which was just the end, not the beginning.

 

[nutshell]

I'm not denying the fact that he suffered for us, if you wan to while we're at it he suffered everything that happened in between those two crucial points. Carrying the cross, getting whipped, being in prison and a multitude of other things that happened to him.
but you don't see people talkign about that stuff nearly as much as the cross which was just the end, not the beginning.

My response: So what?

That the greatest sacrifice Man will ever know happened is more important than the logistics of when and where it happened.

 

[joeboonda]

John 3 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life
Romans 5:10...we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son...
Ephesians 2:16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross...
Colossians 1:20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself...

These verses say the son of man must be lifted up--i.e. on the cross, that we were reconciled to God by the DEATH of his son--not the agony in the Garden, but by his DEATH on the cross, the instrument of his death on which his blood was poured out for all sin. Show me verses that say otherwise.

 

[James the Persian]

No, the important part isn't 'the Atonement', it's the Incarnation - all of it from the Annunciation to the Ascension, not just anyone one moment/moments within the period. The important thing is that Christ was, and is, fully human and full Divine and thus, through Himself, reconciles Creator and creation and becomes in a very real sense the one Mediator between man and God - not mediator simply in the sense of an intercessor or messenger, but in the sense of His being the restoration of the bridge between God and humanity that was destroyed in the Fall.

James

 

[joeboonda]

No, the important part isn't 'the Atonement', it's the Incarnation - all of it from the Annunciation to the Ascension, not just anyone one moment/moments within the period. The important thing is that Christ was, and is, fully human and full Divine and thus, through Himself, reconciles Creator and creation and becomes in a very real sense the one Mediator between man and God - not mediator simply in the sense of an intercessor or messenger, but in the sense of His being the restoration of the bridge between God and humanity that was destroyed in the Fall.

James

How, may I ask, did Christ reconcile us to our Creator? And please, give me SCRIPTURE.

 

[James the Persian]

How, may I ask, did Christ reconcile us to our Creator? And please, give me SCRIPTURE.

How could He not? Do you not believe that He was fully human and fully Divine? Do you not believe He is the one Mediator between man and God (yes both of these are clear from Scripture, even should you wish to ditch the rest of Holy Tradition).

As for your ludicrous demand that I engage in some idiotic proof-texting - in a word, no. Unlike the sola scripturalist I do not deify Scripture and have no desire whatsoever to engage in a pathetic exchange of verses ripped out of context and presented in a fashion heedless of the Tradition in which they were composed.

James