The Atonement of Jesus Christ and Why It Needed to Happen.

[Jacob Samuelson]

(This post was re-posted as requested to be in an debate forum, although I would hope this to be informative rather than to try to convert or dissuade others. I want to inform anyone that may not understand Christ Atonement to gain some understanding. Questions in this post are used as teaching tools and not for rhetoric sarcasm)

I have been thinking of doing this post for awhile now and just finally had the courage and time to help many better understand the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Truly this topic is controversial, (probably the most controversial) still, at least in part, understood by many religious sects so I write not to prove something happened or didn't happen, instead I write to provide a clear understanding of what and why is the Atonement of Jesus Christ. As the atonement could be understood with a different point a view from others, I invite those to write down how they understand such a diverse topic.
As I said before, It is my belief that Atonement is one of the major differences in all of our religions, yet it is something that is ritualized in one way or another by each of us. The Jewish Yom Kippur, The Muslim Ramadan, the Christian Sacrament and Fast are all rituals that we use to better ourselves and rid of our sins. All of these rituals, similarly, require some sort of sacrifice. Usually the sacrifice of food and drink, the sacrifice of worldly pleasures, and more traditionally the sacrifice of flesh (symbolic and non-symbolic). The idea of sacrifice is to sanctify ourselves wholly on the merit that God will accept our offerings and cleanse our souls of sin.

I use these traditions as they are the major religious beliefs in the world, but I am sure there are many more in different religions that practice similar sacrifices, such as the Buddhist monks who have to devote their entire lives away from the world to obtain enlightenment.

Now that we can understand that Atonement or 'At'-'one'-'ment' as I like to call it is not a copyrighted idea rather a universal one, I would like to talk about the Christian God, Jesus Christ and His atonement for mankind.

In Isaiah 53:3-5 written, among other prophecies, several centuries before Christ coming to the world we read
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Believed to be coupled with this scripture In Isaiah 7: 4

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (With us is God)

15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

Christians believe that this is a direct prophecy of Christ's coming and his purpose was to bear our griefs, and carry our sorrows.

How can someone do that? What did is mean that with his stripes, we are healed? Stripes meaning whipped and flogged to a point where flesh is torn from the body. How can we be healed by this?

It is also odd that a prophet of Israel would be talking about Atonement in a sense of human suffering. From an age-old tradition where animal sacrifices were practiced to reconcile transgressions, and that these animals were supposed to be without bruise or blemish, yet this man would be bruised for our iniquities. This is a very unusual scripture to address healing and atonement.

Now from purely a religious perspective, God, only, has the power to absolve sin. No mortal was given this power (as it would be mostly be used for evil anyway) He can forgive who he wills to forgive. Exodus 34:7 Romans 9: 18 He is the ultimate judge of whom will be admitted to his presence and whom receives damnation forever and ever. So who is this person Isaiah speaks about?

For the Christians, we are speaking of Christ. He was the prophecy that came to us from the prophets of Old who would redeem mankind from sin, so they would be capable to return to God's presence and feel his Joy.

But why? Many of my Muslim and Jewish friends ask. Why must God inflict so much torture to this supposed Son of God? What kind of God would want to kill His own Son, instead of just waving his magic finger and saying, Don't worry 'bout it! Your sins are forgiven? Surely God has the power to do so, right?

The answer to this can go as deep or as shallow you want. I prefer deep, but for the betterment of common understanding I will only hit the surface.

The answer is within our rituals of Atonement. There are two key points to address, Justice and Mercy. Most claim that God is all Just and all Merciful. This can cause conflict in our minds, because if He was all merciful, than everyone, no matter how evil or good would enter heaven because of his mercy. If he was all Just than according to the law God made, no one would be able to enter heaven, as each of us have broken his law since Adam and Eve at some point of our lives.

So what must be done then? How can Justice and Mercy live in harmony? The answer is a Mediator. Some one who fulfills the demands of Justice and Mercy. In order for God to be all Just, a payment needs to be made that would counteract any fault of the perpetrator of the law. Sort of like bail for those who are imprisoned. In order for God to be all Merciful, a plan needed to be created for all to enter heaven and receive His blessings.

Christ was this perfect Mediator. As Christians call him the Lamb of God, the Only Begotten of the Father. He paid the price of His Flesh and Blood, which were innocent and contained the DNA of divinity. He offered it up like Isaac of the Old Testament freely to his Father to sacrifice. This sacrifice met the demands of Justice as all grief and pain and sin were absorbed into this perfect vessel. A man who committed no sin, a God who loved all sinners. This perfect balance preserved God's Justice and Allowed Mercy to live perfectly together in a perfect being.

To conclude this reasoning of a perfect godly sacrifice, that unites a Christian understanding, I would like to pose a question? If Christ, in reality, did give up himself, to be slain for the sins of the world, was this sacrifice accepted by God? As Christians, we believe that it was. God accepted Christs sacrifice as payment for all sins. It was the only price that could be accepted by Him. Not of beast, not of man's offerings or sacrifices, but of His Son's blood and Flesh.

I hope that my Non-Christian friends found this informative. Again, I am not considering this a persuasive essay to demote or distract others beliefs. I just wanted to give some light into why Christians hold firmly to the idea of Christ's sacrifice and divinity and where it comes from.

For Christians, please use the Bible as a tool and not a weapon, if I left out something about the atonement, and you would like to add something, I would ask to do so in a way that is not attacking a certain religion or faith. Thank you for your time.

 

[VoidoftheSun]

In Isaiah 53:3-5 written, among other prophecies, several centuries before Christ coming to the world we read
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Isaiah 41:8-9
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, “You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off.”

Isaiah 44:1
But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen!

Isaiah 44:21
Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.

Isaiah 45:4
For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I called you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me.

Isaiah 48:20
Go out from Babylon, flee from Chaldea, declare this with a shout of joy, proclaim it, send it out to the end of the earth; say, “The Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob!”

Isaiah 49:3
And he said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”

 

[shunyadragon]

From the perspective of most Christians it is necessary, but I believe in God from a more universal perspective and no. Relying on the Creation story of Genesis for the origin of the Fall and Original Sin is problematic. I do not believe in the necessity of atonement (penal substitution?}for human sins. This concept developed from the idea of sacrifice to appease God and forgive transgressions, and the belief that the sins of the father are inherited by the offspring.

 

[Spartan]

Isaiah 41:8-9
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, “You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off.”

Isaiah 44:1
But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen!

Isaiah 44:21
Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.

Isaiah 45:4
For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I called you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me.

Isaiah 48:20
Go out from Babylon, flee from Chaldea, declare this with a shout of joy, proclaim it, send it out to the end of the earth; say, “The Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob!”

Isaiah 49:3
And he said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”

Numerous ancient rabbis have said Isaiah 53 speaks about the Messiah. Here's a list of those rabbis: Isaiah 53 Rabbinical Commentary

Also, Israel cannot be the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 for the following reasons:

1. The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer. Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation: "Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters!" He then goes on in the same chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and 21). What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah 53 who had "done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!"

2. The prophet said: "It pleased the LORD to bruise him." Has the awful treatment of the Jewish people (so contrary, by the way, to the teaching of Jesus to love everyone) really been God's pleasure, as is said of the suffering of the servant in Isaiah 53:10 ? If, as some rabbis contend, Isaiah 53 refers to the holocaust, can we really say of Israel's suffering during that horrible period, "It pleased the LORD to bruise him?" Yet it makes perfect sense to say that God was pleased to have Messiah suffer and die as our sin offering to provide us forgiveness and atonement.

3. The person mentioned in this passage suffers silently and willingly. Yet all people, even Israelites, complain when they suffer! Brave Jewish men and women fought in resistance movements against Hitler. Remember the Vilna Ghetto Uprising? Remember the Jewish men who fought on the side of the allies? Can we really say Jewish suffering during the holocaust and during the preceding centuries was done silently and willingly?

4. The figure described in Isaiah 53 suffers, dies, and rises again to atone for his people's sins. The Hebrew word used in Isaiah 53:10 for "sin-offering" is "asham," which is a technical term meaning "sin-offering." See how it is used in Leviticus chapters 5 and 6. Isaiah 53 describes a sinless and perfect sacrificial lamb who takes upon himself the sins of others so that they might be forgiven. Can anyone really claim that the terrible suffering of the Jewish people, however undeserved and unjust, atones for the sins of the world? Whoever Isaiah 53 speaks of, the figure described suffers and dies in order to provide a legal payment for sin so that others can be forgiven. This cannot be true of the Jewish people as a whole, or of any other mere human.

5. It is the prophet who is speaking in this passage. He says: "who has believed our message." The term "message" usually refers to the prophetic message, as it does in Jeremiah 49:14. Also, when we understand the Hebrew parallelism of verse 1, we see "Who has believed our message" as parallel to "to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed." The "arm of the Lord" refers to God's powerful act of salvation. So the message of the speaker is the message of a prophet declaring what God has done to save his people.

6. The prophet speaking is Isaiah himself, who says the sufferer was punished for "the transgression of my people," according to verse 8. Who are the people of Isaiah? Israel. So the sufferer of Isaiah 53 suffered for Israel. So how could he be Israel?

 

[Twilight Hue]

I've always been curious on the fascination people have with pain and suffering as it relates to atonement.

There is so much of that prevalent throughout ancient mythology, and even in modern times I tend to think of it as symbolic in terms of overcoming adversity.

The peculiar observation I have made is how it can translate into ideals associated with empowerment, aside from the notion that if you can make it through a crucible, you're automatically elevated to a higher status to where it could be considered hero worship worthy of a following.

 

[VoidoftheSun]

Numerous ancient rabbis have said Isaiah 53 speaks about the Messiah. Here's a list of those rabbis: Isaiah 53 Rabbinical Commentary

Also, Israel cannot be the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 for the following reasons:

1. The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer. Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation: "Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters!" He then goes on in the same chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and 21). What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah 53 who had "done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!"

2. The prophet said: "It pleased the LORD to bruise him." Has the awful treatment of the Jewish people (so contrary, by the way, to the teaching of Jesus to love everyone) really been God's pleasure, as is said of the suffering of the servant in Isaiah 53:10 ? If, as some rabbis contend, Isaiah 53 refers to the holocaust, can we really say of Israel's suffering during that horrible period, "It pleased the LORD to bruise him?" Yet it makes perfect sense to say that God was pleased to have Messiah suffer and die as our sin offering to provide us forgiveness and atonement.

3. The person mentioned in this passage suffers silently and willingly. Yet all people, even Israelites, complain when they suffer! Brave Jewish men and women fought in resistance movements against Hitler. Remember the Vilna Ghetto Uprising? Remember the Jewish men who fought on the side of the allies? Can we really say Jewish suffering during the holocaust and during the preceding centuries was done silently and willingly?

4. The figure described in Isaiah 53 suffers, dies, and rises again to atone for his people's sins. The Hebrew word used in Isaiah 53:10 for "sin-offering" is "asham," which is a technical term meaning "sin-offering." See how it is used in Leviticus chapters 5 and 6. Isaiah 53 describes a sinless and perfect sacrificial lamb who takes upon himself the sins of others so that they might be forgiven. Can anyone really claim that the terrible suffering of the Jewish people, however undeserved and unjust, atones for the sins of the world? Whoever Isaiah 53 speaks of, the figure described suffers and dies in order to provide a legal payment for sin so that others can be forgiven. This cannot be true of the Jewish people as a whole, or of any other mere human.

5. It is the prophet who is speaking in this passage. He says: "who has believed our message." The term "message" usually refers to the prophetic message, as it does in Jeremiah 49:14. Also, when we understand the Hebrew parallelism of verse 1, we see "Who has believed our message" as parallel to "to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed." The "arm of the Lord" refers to God's powerful act of salvation. So the message of the speaker is the message of a prophet declaring what God has done to save his people.

6. The prophet speaking is Isaiah himself, who says the sufferer was punished for "the transgression of my people," according to verse 8. Who are the people of Isaiah? Israel. So the sufferer of Isaiah 53 suffered for Israel. So how could he be Israel?

Cool but the context of the surrounding chapters explicitly explain what and who the subject of Isaiah 53 is here. No amount of anachronistic speculation based up much later ideas can change what the text itself clearly says.

 

[Spartan]

Cool but the context of the surrounding chapters explicitly explain what and who the subject of Isaiah 53 is here. No amount of anachronistic speculation based up much later ideas can change what the text itself clearly says.

Sorry, even Jewish Rabbis have acknowledged that Isaiah 53 is speaking of the Messiah. Here's the list: Isaiah 53 Rabbinical Commentary

 

[Harel13]

Sorry, even Jewish Rabbis have acknowledged that Isaiah 53 is speaking of the Messiah. Here's the list: Isaiah 53 Rabbinical Commentary

Fascinating. Christian missionary dishonesty at its finest. Notice, first of all, that no actual source locations were brought – just whoever said it – so the reader wouldn’t even think to try to find the actual quotes. In fact, I tried, and found most of them – but not all:

Alshech – conveniently, missionaries only bring part of the quote. Full quote: “Our Rabbis with one voice accept and affirm the opinion that the prophet is speaking of the Messiah, and we shall ourselves also adhere to the same view: for the Messiah is of course David, who, as is well known, was ‘anointed’, and there is a verse in which the prophet, speaking in the name of the Lord, says expressly, ‘My servant David shall be king over them’. The expression my servant, therefore, can be justly referred to David…”

Abarbanel – states clearly, over and over, that the Christians are mistaken that this chapter would ever refer to Jesus and proceeds to take apart the Christian claim, both of their concept of original sin and of the idea that this refers to Jesus receiving the burden of mankind’s sins.

After that, he states: “However, the way of Yonatan [Targum Yonatan] and our Sages of blessed memory that interpreted this about our Meshiach, I do not know if they meant for this to refer to Meshiach ben Yosef that they accepted would come in the beginning of the redemption, or if they meant Meshiach ben David that would come afterwards, but in either case, the simple understanding of the text cannot stand such an explanation, for if it is Meshiach ben Yosef, with his death at the start of his time and his wars, it cannot be said [about him] “Be exalted and raised to great heights.” For he shall not rise to that level and will not remain there [etc]…and if they were to interpret it to refer to Meshiach ben David it too will be hard, as he says: “So marred was his appearance, unlike that of man, form, beyond human semblance” for Isaiah said “Behold My servant, whom I uphold; Mine elect, in whom My soul delighteth” and in another place he was called a shoot from the roof of Yishai and he said “And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.” Not that he shall be “despised, shunned by men” [etc]…and even our sages of blessed memory with that they interpreted the verse “Behold, My servant shall prosper”, the rest of the verses they interpreted about Israel, and likewise did Yonatan that interpreted the first verses about the Meshiach and the rest of the verses on the righteous people [etc] and the Ramban [Nachmanides], with that he interpreted it about the Meshiach, wrote that in his view this was said about the Nation of Israel. [etc]”

Yafeth ben Ali – Karaite source, irrelevant to Orthodox Jews.

Avraham Farissol – first brings the Christian view in his book Magen Avraham (a book that argues against Christianity), and then proceeds to write: “And when we begin from the start of the subject in it’s order [previously he stated that a Christian theologian by the name of Geronimo used to conveniently bring only parts of the chapter] from “Behold, My servant shall prosper” and explain first the intention of the prophet and know who this servant is that the prophet attributes this section to, then will it be known the length of the subject in its entirety on its subject and there will not be learnt from it invalid [ideas]…[then he continues and brings other views]…but we shall interpret it as referring to Israel, certainly, for [he] called them, the prophet, and gave them the title servant and in a singular tongue in many of his previous prophecies we find the prophet speaking to Israel by the title of a singular servant.” [and he continues to bring more proofs for this].

Targum Yonatan – while the Targum does refer to the verse's subject matter as the Meshiach, missionaries conveniently only bring that one verse. What about 53:5? “But he was wounded because of our sins, Crushed because of our iniquities. He bore the chastisement that made us whole, And by his bruises we were healed.” On this the Targum writes: “But he will build up the Holy Place [the Temple], which has been polluted for our sins, and delivered to the enemy for our iniquities; and by his instruction peace shall be increased upon us, and by devotion to his words, our sins will be forgiven us.” - and of course, the Abarbanel and others interpreted the Targum of chapter 53 to referring to the righteous men of Israel.

Gersonides – brings the sages’ Midrash that the verse “Behold, My servant shall prosper” refers to the Meshiach, but doesn’t bring any other part of the text. This is just a hint he uses to show the greatness of the Meshiach in comparison to Moshe in Numbers 24.

Tanchuma – says verse 52:13 is about the Meshiach, but only that verse (see above explanation from the Abarbanel).

Maimonides – refers to the verse, brings the interpretation that it refers to the Meshiach, but not the rest of the chapter. Moreover, the quote comes from a section of the letter that’s dedicated to explaining, among other things, why Jesus cannot be the prophesied messiah.

Yalkut Shimoni – again, only interprets verse 52:13.

[Second] Tanchuma – [unable to find the original quote source]

Sanhedrin 98b – misquote: “Messiah ...what is his name? The Rabbis say,'The leprous one'; those of the house of the Rabbi (Jehuda Hanassi, the author of the Mishna, 135-200) say: 'Cholaja' (The sickly), for it says, 'Surely he has borne our sicknesses' etc. (Isa.53,4).”

The real quote says: "And the Rabbis say: The leper of the house of Rabbi [Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi] is his name, as it is stated: “Indeed our illnesses he did bear and our pains he endured; yet we did esteem him injured, stricken by God, and afflicted” (Isaiah 53:4)."

Also, the Talmud only says that this verse hints to the name of the Meshiach but doesn’t say that the entire chapter is about the Meshiach.

Sifre – [unable to find the original quote source]

Rabbi Elazar Hakalir – “"Our righteous Messiah has departed from us. Horror has seized us and we have no one to justify us. He has borne our transgressions and the yoke of our iniquities, and is wounded because of our transgressions. He bore our sins upon His shoulders that we may find pardon for our iniquity. We shall be healed by His wounds, at the time when the Eternal will recreate Him a new creature. Oh bring Him up from the circle of the earth, raise Him up from Seir, that we may hear Him the second time.”

Conveniently the quote leaves out the parts in which the text refers to the possibility of repentance [of Israel] and the building of the Temple (which is also related to repentance). This is, after all, from a Yom Kippur liturgical hymn.

Rabbi Moshe Hadarshan (the preacher) – entirely unclear where the quote comes from. We have no books that we’re 100% certain are those of Rabbi Moshe. There’s one book called Beresheet Rabti which is thought to be a collection of some of his Misrashim, but nowhere there is anything remotely similar to the quote brought. Next, part of a possibly different version of Beresheet Rabti called Beresheet Rabbah was brought by a Christian missionary named Raymond Martini in his book Pugio Fidei, but the Abarbanel who knew of Martini’s book and not the Beresheet Rabbah believed it [the Beresheet Rabbah part] to have been a forgery.

Pesikta – [unable to find the original quote source]

The rest are sources from the Hebrew translation of the NT. That's quite laughable. In what sense is that considered a serious Jewish source?

Presumably, if the sources that I haven't found yet do exist (and who knows, they may be forgeries like the quote from Rabbi Moshe), then they too were misinterpreted by missionaries.

 

[Spartan]

Fascinating. Christian missionary dishonesty at its finest.

Nonsense. Can't help it if your sources are spiritually challenged. Oh, and by the way, Jesus fulfilled Isaiah 53. Multiple examples of fulfillment in the following article.

Isaiah 53

 

[Harel13]

Nonsense. Can't help it if your sources are spiritually challenged. Oh, and by the way, Jesus fulfilled Isaiah 53. Multiple examples of fulfillment in the following article.

Isaiah 53

Whether Jesus fulfilled any messianic prophecies or not is another question. But what does it mean "[my] sources are spiritually challenged"? You're the one who brought the list. Missionaries quote-mined. How is that my fault?
I mean, did you even read anything I wrote, other than that first sentence?

 

[Harel13]

Isaiah 53

So to prove your point that rabbinical sources seemingly agree that Jesus fulfills Isaiah 53 you bring an article that only quotes the NT? Pfff...
Please, if you know nothing about rabbinical sources, don't use them. You'll be doing your argument a favor.

 

[shunyadragon]

Nonsense. Can't help it if your sources are spiritually challenged. Oh, and by the way, Jesus fulfilled Isaiah 53. Multiple examples of fulfillment in the following article.

Isaiah 53

This of course a claim by believing Christians only.

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

It is common knowledge that there are differences in beliefs and understandings of Scripture. I would like to remind anyone commenting that my intent was not to relive an age old argument between Jews and Christians and the divinity of the man we call Christ. Although the discussion has been insightful, my main goal is to first inform those who may not have an understanding of the necessity of Christ for Christians to see where why we believe God did what had to do. Again, I have seen there has been a great misunderstanding that an Atonement didn't have to be made in the form of human sacrifice.

The key takeaways I have hoped to be included in this, was to explain firstly, that most share an idea of sacrifice or Atonement as a means of betterment spiritually and acknowledgement towards God's power to remove sin in our life.

Secondly, To explain that Christians believe that Christ's Atonement and His Coming was foretold as explained in the New Testament as opposed to the Old Testament. Events of Christs ministry and sacrifice were interpretations of prophecy of Judaic Scriptures (particularly in Isaiah, but also foretold by others) by early Christian converts (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, and other formerly Jewish disciples) therefore the source of Christianity is actually from Jewish teachings and prophecies and not just from the Christ Ministry.

Lastly to emphasize that Christian beliefs assume that Christ was the Messiah as written in the Old Testament, who was a perfect being, eligible for the last sacrifice of flesh to atone for the sins of mankind, insomuch that we hold in faith to his teachings.

It is apparent that we interpret scripture differently. That exists, even more so I believe within our own faiths, yet my goal is instead of getting into unproductive debates of scriptures, to come to an understanding first of what each other believe and then have a dialogue to better that understanding. Too many walls are put up before we can ever get to that point and so common beliefs are misunderstood and passed to others which is the issue.

I understand this is a controversial topic and open for debate, but I would invite understanding before jumping in a fray of scriptural know how.

 

[metis]

Isaiah was not writing about Jesus but about Israel personified and some of the Jewish leaders during the Babylonian Exile. However, it can be said that it sort of "prefigures" a leader who will again restore Israel, literally or figuratively.

 

[1213]

...If Christ, in reality, did give up himself, to be slain for the sins of the world, was this sacrifice accepted by God? As Christians, we believe that it was. God accepted Christs sacrifice as payment for all sins. It was the only price that could be accepted by Him. Not of beast, not of man's offerings or sacrifices, but of His Son's blood and Flesh.... if I left out something about the atonement, and you would like to add something...

I hope this doesn’t sound offensive, but I want to say few things that I think are really important in this matter. First thing is, Jesus and his disciples had the right to forgive sins before Jesus died and death was not required in that.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

Also, I think it is very important to know this:

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

I think atonement and sacrifice should be understood by taking these scriptures into account also.

Jesus used his life for us by teaching us and by declaring the message that can cause change in our hearts so that we become righteous and can have the life. I think that is the reason why he is the perfect “sacrifice”. Animals that were sacrifice didn’t make anyone righteous.

 

[Harel13]

I would like to remind anyone commenting that my intent was not to relive an age old argument between Jews and Christians and the divinity of the man we call Christ.

I hear you, and it was never my intention to derail the thread. I simply cannot stand it when people misrepresent Judaism or appropriate it for their own religion.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Secondly, To explain that Christians believe that Christ's Atonement and His Coming was foretold as explained in the New Testament as opposed to the Old Testament. Events of Christs ministry and sacrifice were interpretations of prophecy of Judaic Scriptures (particularly in Isaiah, but also foretold by others) by early Christian converts (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, and other formerly Jewish disciples) therefore the source of Christianity is actually from Jewish teachings and prophecies and not just from the Christ Ministry.

See here is the problem. In order to make your point, you must misrepresent Judaism and our Tanakh. The Torah essentially teaches that A. here are the laws God wants the Jews to follow, and B. when you screw up, here is what God wants you to do.

Just know that if/when you misrepresent us, you might find us jumping into the conversation. You might be shocked to find that scriptures that look obvious to you mean things quite different to us.

But to start with, there is nothing, NOTHING, in the Torah or Prophets about the coming Messiah being an atonement sacrifice. Indeed, God forbids human sacrifice.

 

[Spartan]

This of course a claim by believing Christians only.

I don't know how you can prove that.

 

[Spartan]

So to prove your point that rabbinical sources seemingly agree that Jesus fulfills Isaiah 53 you bring an article that only quotes the NT? Pfff...
Please, if you know nothing about rabbinical sources, don't use them. You'll be doing your argument a favor.

Here's a list of Rabbinical sources showing support for Isaiah 53 speaking about the Messiah: Isaiah 53 Rabbinical Commentary

 

[Spartan]

Whether Jesus fulfilled any messianic prophecies or not is another question. But what does it mean "[my] sources are spiritually challenged"? You're the one who brought the list. Missionaries quote-mined. How is that my fault?
I mean, did you even read anything I wrote, other than that first sentence?

"Missionaries quote-mined"? LOL. Their all liars, right? <facepalm>