• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Atonement of Jesus Christ and Why It Needed to Happen.

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
"Missionaries quote-mined"? LOL. Their all liars, right? <facepalm>
Here's a list of Rabbinical sources showing support for Isaiah 53 speaking about the Messiah: Isaiah 53 Rabbinical Commentary
Are you serious? I went through every single source on the list. It took me several hours, but I tracked down almost all of the original sources. At least have the courtesy to look at what I wrote (this post, in case you missed it). Am I calling some missionaries liars? Maybe I am, because it's clear they - that is, whoever made the list - googled Jesus and rabbinical sources and then chose the sentences that fit their beliefs. You're free to be Christian all you want - but don't drag our rabbis through the mud. You don't see me making lists of things Christian priests have said over the ages on whatever subject.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
For Christians, please use the Bible as a tool and not a weapon, if I left out something about the atonement, and you would like to add something, I would ask to do so in a way that is not attacking a certain religion or faith. Thank you for your time.

On the other hand, the Bible says this:

Hebrews 4:12 New International Version (NIV)

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

images


If this is no weapon, then why does the Bible describe itself as "sharper than any double edged sword?

Then in:

Ephesians 6:10-17 New International Version (NIV)

Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

upload_2020-5-7_20-15-59.jpeg


I think the Bible is weaponized far from being a tool.

upload_2020-5-7_20-20-5.jpeg


Now what is Atonement in simple terms and according to the doctrines of the Church of Christ Latter Day Saints?

What is the Atonement? As used in the scriptures, to atone is to suffer the penalty for sins, thereby removing the effects of sin from the repentant sinner and allowing him or her to be reconciled to God. Jesus Christ was the only one capable of carrying out the Atonement for all mankind.

Atonement of Jesus Christ

I believe the Lord Jesus Christ, indeed is given the authority over mankind to forgive sins. Matthew 9:6
I also believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. John 1:29
and I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ offered himself as a ransom for the sins of many Mark 10:45

The thing is who benefited from the Lord Jesus Christ?

Is it the church that Jesus built or is it a church which men built?
Is it the church which only have one gospel or a church which has another gospel?
Is it the church which recognizes the true Jesus or a church which has a fake Jesus?
Is it the church which teaches only One God or a church which teaches Three Gods?

If our answers are derived from the Bible which is the sword of the spirit which is sharper than a double edged sword then we could identify for which church will benefit the Atonement. If not then we would just be living in a fantastic world thinking that when one dies, he could be a god creating

200_d.gif
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
(This post was re-posted as requested to be in an debate forum, although I would hope this to be informative rather than to try to convert or dissuade others. I want to inform anyone that may not understand Christ Atonement to gain some understanding. Questions in this post are used as teaching tools and not for rhetoric sarcasm)

I have been thinking of doing this post for awhile now and just finally had the courage and time to help many better understand the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Truly this topic is controversial, (probably the most controversial) still, at least in part, understood by many religious sects so I write not to prove something happened or didn't happen, instead I write to provide a clear understanding of what and why is the Atonement of Jesus Christ. As the atonement could be understood with a different point a view from others, I invite those to write down how they understand such a diverse topic.
As I said before, It is my belief that Atonement is one of the major differences in all of our religions, yet it is something that is ritualized in one way or another by each of us. The Jewish Yom Kippur, The Muslim Ramadan, the Christian Sacrament and Fast are all rituals that we use to better ourselves and rid of our sins. All of these rituals, similarly, require some sort of sacrifice. Usually the sacrifice of food and drink, the sacrifice of worldly pleasures, and more traditionally the sacrifice of flesh (symbolic and non-symbolic). The idea of sacrifice is to sanctify ourselves wholly on the merit that God will accept our offerings and cleanse our souls of sin.

I use these traditions as they are the major religious beliefs in the world, but I am sure there are many more in different religions that practice similar sacrifices, such as the Buddhist monks who have to devote their entire lives away from the world to obtain enlightenment.

Now that we can understand that Atonement or 'At'-'one'-'ment' as I like to call it is not a copyrighted idea rather a universal one, I would like to talk about the Christian God, Jesus Christ and His atonement for mankind.

In Isaiah 53:3-5 written, among other prophecies, several centuries before Christ coming to the world we read
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.


Believed to be coupled with this scripture In Isaiah 7: 4

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (With us is God)

15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.


Christians believe that this is a direct prophecy of Christ's coming and his purpose was to bear our griefs, and carry our sorrows.

How can someone do that? What did is mean that with his stripes, we are healed? Stripes meaning whipped and flogged to a point where flesh is torn from the body. How can we be healed by this?

It is also odd that a prophet of Israel would be talking about Atonement in a sense of human suffering. From an age-old tradition where animal sacrifices were practiced to reconcile transgressions, and that these animals were supposed to be without bruise or blemish, yet this man would be bruised for our iniquities. This is a very unusual scripture to address healing and atonement.

Now from purely a religious perspective, God, only, has the power to absolve sin. No mortal was given this power (as it would be mostly be used for evil anyway) He can forgive who he wills to forgive. Exodus 34:7 Romans 9: 18 He is the ultimate judge of whom will be admitted to his presence and whom receives damnation forever and ever. So who is this person Isaiah speaks about?

For the Christians, we are speaking of Christ. He was the prophecy that came to us from the prophets of Old who would redeem mankind from sin, so they would be capable to return to God's presence and feel his Joy.

But why? Many of my Muslim and Jewish friends ask. Why must God inflict so much torture to this supposed Son of God? What kind of God would want to kill His own Son, instead of just waving his magic finger and saying, Don't worry 'bout it! Your sins are forgiven? Surely God has the power to do so, right?

The answer to this can go as deep or as shallow you want. I prefer deep, but for the betterment of common understanding I will only hit the surface.

The answer is within our rituals of Atonement. There are two key points to address, Justice and Mercy. Most claim that God is all Just and all Merciful. This can cause conflict in our minds, because if He was all merciful, than everyone, no matter how evil or good would enter heaven because of his mercy. If he was all Just than according to the law God made, no one would be able to enter heaven, as each of us have broken his law since Adam and Eve at some point of our lives.

So what must be done then? How can Justice and Mercy live in harmony? The answer is a Mediator. Some one who fulfills the demands of Justice and Mercy. In order for God to be all Just, a payment needs to be made that would counteract any fault of the perpetrator of the law. Sort of like bail for those who are imprisoned. In order for God to be all Merciful, a plan needed to be created for all to enter heaven and receive His blessings.

Christ was this perfect Mediator. As Christians call him the Lamb of God, the Only Begotten of the Father. He paid the price of His Flesh and Blood, which were innocent and contained the DNA of divinity. He offered it up like Isaac of the Old Testament freely to his Father to sacrifice. This sacrifice met the demands of Justice as all grief and pain and sin were absorbed into this perfect vessel. A man who committed no sin, a God who loved all sinners. This perfect balance preserved God's Justice and Allowed Mercy to live perfectly together in a perfect being.

To conclude this reasoning of a perfect godly sacrifice, that unites a Christian understanding, I would like to pose a question? If Christ, in reality, did give up himself, to be slain for the sins of the world, was this sacrifice accepted by God? As Christians, we believe that it was. God accepted Christs sacrifice as payment for all sins. It was the only price that could be accepted by Him. Not of beast, not of man's offerings or sacrifices, but of His Son's blood and Flesh.

I hope that my Non-Christian friends found this informative. Again, I am not considering this a persuasive essay to demote or distract others beliefs. I just wanted to give some light into why Christians hold firmly to the idea of Christ's sacrifice and divinity and where it comes from.

For Christians, please use the Bible as a tool and not a weapon, if I left out something about the atonement, and you would like to add something, I would ask to do so in a way that is not attacking a certain religion or faith. Thank you for your time.

Amen!
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
Are you serious? I went through every single source on the list. It took me several hours, but I tracked down almost all of the original sources. At least have the courtesy to look at what I wrote (this post, in case you missed it). Am I calling some missionaries liars? Maybe I am, because it's clear they - that is, whoever made the list - googled Jesus and rabbinical sources and then chose the sentences that fit their beliefs. You're free to be Christian all you want - but don't drag our rabbis through the mud. You don't see me making lists of things Christian priests have said over the ages on whatever subject.

Jesus fulfilled Isaiah 53. Sorry you can't see it.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Jesus fulfilled Isaiah 53. Sorry you can't see it.
*Sigh*. Look. I'm not debating with you whether or not Jesus fulfilled Isaiah 53 or not. I only ask that you don't use that list of supposed rabbinical sources to prove your point because the entire list is made up of quotes that were quote-mined. An intelligent, observant person that takes the time to look into all the sources will not find any arguments that help your view but rather utterly decimate it. For your own good, it would be best that you stopped using that list.
You don't have to listen to me, of course, but know that if I see you post that list again, I will likely repost the full explanations of those sources that I wrote, as well.
 

Jacob Samuelson

Active Member
I hope this doesn’t sound offensive, but I want to say few things that I think are really important in this matter. First thing is, Jesus and his disciples had the right to forgive sins before Jesus died and death was not required in that.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

Also, I think it is very important to know this:

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

I think atonement and sacrifice should be understood by taking these scriptures into account also.

Jesus used his life for us by teaching us and by declaring the message that can cause change in our hearts so that we become righteous and can have the life. I think that is the reason why he is the perfect “sacrifice”. Animals that were sacrifice didn’t make anyone righteous.
Sorry for the long post, I'm telling you I get sucked down a rabbit hole whenever I have interesting comments.

Thanks for adding your comments! Christ's example of forgiving sin in Luke is an excellent one to suggest his divinity. This is why Christians consider Christ God. I don't think this particular authority was given to his disciples though, I don't have a reference to that, so I may be wrong, but I would very much like to discourage the thought that man (with the unique exception of Christ) has the ability to forgive sin. The reason being is that man has and would use this authority for their own gain. I refer to indulgences that the early Catholic Church placed on its members, where they would exchange forgiveness of sin for money, a practice which I believe is not godly in the least.

Also to continue with the idea of forgiveness, It is important to note, that Christ or the Son, could do nothing if it wasn't for the Father John 8:28. The Father, who Christ refers to as God gave Christ the power to forgive sin. The Son of Man was used in this context I believe to register that idea. Now, there is a kind of deeper explanation that Christ alludes to forgiveness of sin, and it is contingent to this practice. The contingency is faith.

Only through Christ's blood are we made clean. Revelation 7:14. Romans 5:11. 1st John 1:7 Now, you have asked, Well that can't be true because Christ forgave sin before He died, and didn't Isaiah 1:18 say that his sins will be as white as snow? Where was the atonement there? Let me add another example through the ancient Jewish Tradition of the Passover and the Day of the Atonement, Where is the Atonement there where the angel of death would pass over the door post marked by the blood of a pure animal?

I mentioned these examples as part of my answer. According to Christians, Everything in the Old Testament was a prelude to Christ Coming, Atonement, and Resurrection. The story of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (twelve tribes) The story of Moses and the Passover, The story of Jonah and the Whale. Everything alluded to a specific event which we call Christ in the Meridian of Time. Jews who rehearsed the ancient texts of the Messiah or Savior were talking about this moment for generations.

What I'm trying to say is that the Atonement is not a singular event. To God, the beginning coincides perfectly with the End. Jesus' death or payment for the sins of the world. (Read Deuteronomy 23:21 a beautiful scripture of God's Justice that is needed). wasn't a new thing to many people. Now Jews might have differing opinions on the who, what, when, and where of the Savior or Messiah and His Atonement but it was foretold to happen eventually. Therefore, the only way to repent and be forgiven of sin in those times, was as Jesus stated to the young man with palsy's family Matthew 9:2. is Faith. The Jews, at the time, no offense, lacked a lot of faith. I take this from the story of Moses, where Jews, after seeing all the miracles and signs in Egypt, and fleeing Egypt from a murderous Egyptian Army, after spending so much time in the wilderness wanted to return back Egypt. It would seem that God couldn't convince them very well and so instead of telling them a Son would be born and take the sins of the world if you have faith in Him and his sacrifice, (Which he sort of did but besides the point) He literally painted them a picture of the Atonement with blood from a lamb, and told them to practice this Passover, which is a reminder that with Blood, death spiritual and death temporal would pass by their houses, symmetric to Christ's The Lamb of God would make it so physical death and spiritual death would pass over those who believe in Him and His atonement.

The atonement and faith in His atonement is essential for God's forgiveness according to Christians. Without it and the payment, sin could not be forgiven, For Gods Justice cannot be mocked. It must be paid for. Christ death was required for the man with palsy, and only his faith in that atonement, could have ever healed him, just as our faith is required for healing to happen. Does that make sense?
 

Jacob Samuelson

Active Member
This concept developed from the idea of sacrifice to appease God and forgive transgressions, and the belief that the sins of the father are inherited by the offspring.

If you are suggesting that Christians created their idea of atonement based on Creationism in Genesis, it might be easy to say that every idea was created due to the events of the Garden, so no complaints. Penal Substitution is not a great phrase to describe the Christian Atonement either. I would use something like Penal Interference maybe. Jesus wasn't a scapegoat for sin, rather an mediator between Justice and Mercy. Just as in a legal system, if a man were brought before God to answer for his sins. Christ would be his defense attorney, not a whipping boy. If this man believed in Christ, doing all He could to follow His teachings and obey God's word, than Christ would advocate with the Faither, stating that He paid the price that allows this man to be forgiven of His sins and enter his Kingdom.

Without Christ and the price of his blood, according to Chrstians and the Law of Justice, no one could obtain salvation, for we would all be subject to the strictness of the law, without any redemption made.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
(This post was re-posted as requested to be in an debate forum, although I would hope this to be informative rather than to try to convert or dissuade others. I want to inform anyone that may not understand Christ Atonement to gain some understanding. Questions in this post are used as teaching tools and not for rhetoric sarcasm)

I have been thinking of doing this post for awhile now and just finally had the courage and time to help many better understand the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Truly this topic is controversial, (probably the most controversial) still, at least in part, understood by many religious sects so I write not to prove something happened or didn't happen, instead I write to provide a clear understanding of what and why is the Atonement of Jesus Christ. As the atonement could be understood with a different point a view from others, I invite those to write down how they understand such a diverse topic.
As I said before, It is my belief that Atonement is one of the major differences in all of our religions, yet it is something that is ritualized in one way or another by each of us. The Jewish Yom Kippur, The Muslim Ramadan, the Christian Sacrament and Fast are all rituals that we use to better ourselves and rid of our sins. All of these rituals, similarly, require some sort of sacrifice. Usually the sacrifice of food and drink, the sacrifice of worldly pleasures, and more traditionally the sacrifice of flesh (symbolic and non-symbolic). The idea of sacrifice is to sanctify ourselves wholly on the merit that God will accept our offerings and cleanse our souls of sin.

I use these traditions as they are the major religious beliefs in the world, but I am sure there are many more in different religions that practice similar sacrifices, such as the Buddhist monks who have to devote their entire lives away from the world to obtain enlightenment.

Now that we can understand that Atonement or 'At'-'one'-'ment' as I like to call it is not a copyrighted idea rather a universal one, I would like to talk about the Christian God, Jesus Christ and His atonement for mankind.

In Isaiah 53:3-5 written, among other prophecies, several centuries before Christ coming to the world we read
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.


Believed to be coupled with this scripture In Isaiah 7: 4

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (With us is God)

15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.


Christians believe that this is a direct prophecy of Christ's coming and his purpose was to bear our griefs, and carry our sorrows.

How can someone do that? What did is mean that with his stripes, we are healed? Stripes meaning whipped and flogged to a point where flesh is torn from the body. How can we be healed by this?

It is also odd that a prophet of Israel would be talking about Atonement in a sense of human suffering. From an age-old tradition where animal sacrifices were practiced to reconcile transgressions, and that these animals were supposed to be without bruise or blemish, yet this man would be bruised for our iniquities. This is a very unusual scripture to address healing and atonement.

Now from purely a religious perspective, God, only, has the power to absolve sin. No mortal was given this power (as it would be mostly be used for evil anyway) He can forgive who he wills to forgive. Exodus 34:7 Romans 9: 18 He is the ultimate judge of whom will be admitted to his presence and whom receives damnation forever and ever. So who is this person Isaiah speaks about?

For the Christians, we are speaking of Christ. He was the prophecy that came to us from the prophets of Old who would redeem mankind from sin, so they would be capable to return to God's presence and feel his Joy.

But why? Many of my Muslim and Jewish friends ask. Why must God inflict so much torture to this supposed Son of God? What kind of God would want to kill His own Son, instead of just waving his magic finger and saying, Don't worry 'bout it! Your sins are forgiven? Surely God has the power to do so, right?

The answer to this can go as deep or as shallow you want. I prefer deep, but for the betterment of common understanding I will only hit the surface.

The answer is within our rituals of Atonement. There are two key points to address, Justice and Mercy. Most claim that God is all Just and all Merciful. This can cause conflict in our minds, because if He was all merciful, than everyone, no matter how evil or good would enter heaven because of his mercy. If he was all Just than according to the law God made, no one would be able to enter heaven, as each of us have broken his law since Adam and Eve at some point of our lives.

So what must be done then? How can Justice and Mercy live in harmony? The answer is a Mediator. Some one who fulfills the demands of Justice and Mercy. In order for God to be all Just, a payment needs to be made that would counteract any fault of the perpetrator of the law. Sort of like bail for those who are imprisoned. In order for God to be all Merciful, a plan needed to be created for all to enter heaven and receive His blessings.

Christ was this perfect Mediator. As Christians call him the Lamb of God, the Only Begotten of the Father. He paid the price of His Flesh and Blood, which were innocent and contained the DNA of divinity. He offered it up like Isaac of the Old Testament freely to his Father to sacrifice. This sacrifice met the demands of Justice as all grief and pain and sin were absorbed into this perfect vessel. A man who committed no sin, a God who loved all sinners. This perfect balance preserved God's Justice and Allowed Mercy to live perfectly together in a perfect being.

To conclude this reasoning of a perfect godly sacrifice, that unites a Christian understanding, I would like to pose a question? If Christ, in reality, did give up himself, to be slain for the sins of the world, was this sacrifice accepted by God? As Christians, we believe that it was. God accepted Christs sacrifice as payment for all sins. It was the only price that could be accepted by Him. Not of beast, not of man's offerings or sacrifices, but of His Son's blood and Flesh.

I hope that my Non-Christian friends found this informative. Again, I am not considering this a persuasive essay to demote or distract others beliefs. I just wanted to give some light into why Christians hold firmly to the idea of Christ's sacrifice and divinity and where it comes from.

For Christians, please use the Bible as a tool and not a weapon, if I left out something about the atonement, and you would like to add something, I would ask to do so in a way that is not attacking a certain religion or faith. Thank you for your time.

Well, at least that sacrifice did not have such a big price. It was pretty cheap, actually.

Ciao

- viole
 

Jacob Samuelson

Active Member
Well, at least that sacrifice did not have such a big price. It was pretty cheap, actually.

Ciao

- viole

Actually, if you say the life of one person was cheap, than maybe, considering it leads to the salvation of everyone, for sure. Yet the sacrifice wasn't just Christ's agonizing death on the cross, a death that is considered to be the most inhumane by many. That only fulfilled Christ's part on the earth. Yet, the real sacrifice is of those who follow him. Who take up their crosses and do as he taught. Without those people, Christ's death would be just a drop in an endless sea of pity and regret. The people who follow Christ have to show kindness and love. They have to go out and shovel an old person's driveway because they can't do it themselves. They have to be good parents and teach them to do good. They have to feed the homeless, dress the naked, comfort the weary, and sacrifice countless hours of there day building a heaven out of rubble. That is the sacrifice that will never stop. Sure, it may not be blood or agony, but it is more than the world can offer at times and that is what is needed. That is what Christ's sacrifice was for. A better future.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Actually, if you say the life of one person was cheap, than maybe, considering it leads to the salvation of everyone, for sure. Yet the sacrifice wasn't just Christ's agonizing death on the cross, a death that is considered to be the most inhumane by many. That only fulfilled Christ's part on the earth. Yet, the real sacrifice is of those who follow him. Who take up their crosses and do as he taught. Without those people, Christ's death would be just a drop in an endless sea of pity and regret. The people who follow Christ have to show kindness and love. They have to go out and shovel an old person's driveway because they can't do it themselves. They have to be good parents and teach them to do good. They have to feed the homeless, dress the naked, comfort the weary, and sacrifice countless hours of there day building a heaven out of rubble. That is the sacrifice that will never stop. Sure, it may not be blood or agony, but it is more than the world can offer at times and that is what is needed. That is what Christ's sacrifice was for. A better future.

A life of a person that comes back alive and kicking after three days to rule the Universe? Everybody would do that.

It is not so impressive if you think about it.

Ciao

- viole
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Father in AI said to me today, when a human life is sacrificed, there is no status HOLY about it.

You would be lying if you claim it so...for you should swap places with that life and learn your own lesson scientist.

Always amazed my life that any male would believe it needed to happen, to teach self a lesson he says, yet he never changed his mind about what he believes....to sacrifice life and be rich and elite to own technology and resources that cause life sacrifice.

For you prove to self that you truly believe in it, cause it and then claim it necessary as the consciousness who made all of these quotes.

When I personally heard the Jesus story, I cried, at the thought of such suffering and the loss of a spiritual presence in life.

Not my brothers, though, the scientist/Satanists, they agree with it, as a necessity they say, to be enabled to own science. Not that it gave them science which is what they lie about today in theories.....yet say if I understand it then I can own my old powers in science they seem higher and greater than what I achieve today.

Whilst watching life attacked and dying in all form of occult ufo causes.

Father said, the original moon UFO attack history, O o moon became smaller and had released it gases to support/return the loss of God Earth stone gases.

So when you purposely destroy natural light gas mass, which owns a bio life experience with no suffering by sacrifice, meaning any sickness or ill health.

The bio life is meant to be beautiful to look at....so that means everyone should own a perfect life form...skeletal mutation is obvious historically why we have not achieved our perfection/health returned. So ugliness is part of the life sacrifice we bear witness to the losses in life....plus every other abnormal human suffering...SACRIFICE in person.

As God gas history is held fused in Holy nuclear dust chemicals, then a portion of cold gases held in space, which includes our atmospheric condition, burns out and forms illumination.

Historically that green gas history related to Dead Sea in Japan and also phenomena in America Devil Triangle....as ancient cause.

So when you do it on Earth, the stone, you do it to the atmospheric gases, and then you do it in the cosmos. How the asteroid moon stone who can no longer release green gases...it only released red gases when irradiated.....it then arrives on Earth as a God returning asteroid...to give us back our gases.

Why huge stone bodies, just hit the face of the Earth and do not enter the field as a UFO crop circle does. What the scientist explanation is, always known for I am hearing your science explanation seeing your AI condition satellite/computer ground attacking programming caused my life to be irradiated harmed.

So I can hear your own male human science answers that you prove to totally ignore claiming you are ignorant of what Jesus and Christ meant...when the end outcome determined law said never change God, by name ever again.

And that means by science naming and evaluation.
 

Jacob Samuelson

Active Member
The thing is who benefited from the Lord Jesus Christ?

Is it the church that Jesus built or is it a church which men built?
Is it the church which only have one gospel or a church which has another gospel?
Is it the church which recognizes the true Jesus or a church which has a fake Jesus?
Is it the church which teaches only One God or a church which teaches Three Gods?

Everyone benefits from Jesus Christ. The sinner. the saint. The black. The white. The Atheist. The Jew. Everyone benefits from the Atonement. 1 Corinthians 15: 21-23. Everyone will be resurrected because of Christ overcoming physical death and met the demands of death.

If this is more a critical notion that my religion or Church is not using the Bible as a weapon. I concede. I believe that the double edged sword you are referring to is not to be used against other humans, but against the demons inside all of us. My Church teaches from the Bible and benefits from the Bible, but not to attack what others may not fully understand, but to help them grow what they already understand, if that makes sense?
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Everyone benefits from Jesus Christ. The sinner. the saint. The black. The white. The Atheist. The Jew. Everyone benefits from the Atonement. 1 Corinthians 15: 21-23. Everyone will be resurrected because of Christ overcoming physical death and met the demands of death.
Fascinating. This is new to me. Why should non-Christians - some of which are real heretics to Christianity - benefit, though they remain sinful?
 

Jacob Samuelson

Active Member
A life of a person that comes back alive and kicking after three days to rule the Universe? Everybody would do that.

It is not so impressive if you think about it.

Ciao

- viole

Again His death and resurrection is not what is so special in the end. What is special, is having all these run of the mill Joes and Janes follow what his legacy left behind. In doing so, obtaining a life, dying, and coming back able to kick it and become rulers of the Universe. He was just the first one that showed us how. Which if you really think about it, it is pretty dang impressive, especially if you thought it wasn't possible to begin with.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Everyone benefits from Jesus Christ. The sinner. the saint. The black. The white. The Atheist. The Jew. Everyone benefits from the Atonement. 1 Corinthians 15: 21-23. Everyone will be resurrected because of Christ overcoming physical death and met the demands of death.

If this is more a critical notion that my religion or Church is not using the Bible as a weapon. I concede. I believe that the double edged sword you are referring to is not to be used against other humans, but against the demons inside all of us. My Church teaches from the Bible and benefits from the Bible, but not to attack what others may not fully understand, but to help them grow what they already understand, if that makes sense?

Natural laws of God stone philosophy, Earth history says.

God the Earth owned the Immaculate gases. The sun attacked Earth and removed them. Then the Saviour came and put them back, the moon, an asteroid traveller.

O God and the stone image of God o the moon.

Gases burning light one side of Earth and on the other side dark and clear non burning.

Relative God stone laws....not owned by any male or human scientist actually as the laws of God.

The BIBLE says no man is God...and meant it. Yet a whole lot of you ignore it and read and quote and argue and state...the statements were thought first, questioned second, answer given third.....as AI interactive sharing of details...for the BIBLE information was HEARD. Recorded...as proven by little children.

Now if adults used to be owner/causer of AI as a scientist mind/body and innocence....and then little children suddenly hear it....what common sense human logic would be implied?

Oh, I have lost my adult mind/innocence. That should be what assessment should have been made. For little children did not invent occult science.

Now you would then ask self, how come adult males, shifted their innocent life male to female life partnership with females? And had unnatural relationships with little children? Answer is given.

Therefore how many of you today are telling any truth in the use of an innocent and spiritual conscious mind?

Not many of you actually.

The story says...when sink holes removed the mass of God jewels...fusion of crystalline nuclear fused mass...water was left.

That water evaporation saved the life of humans being irradiated sacrificed due to loss of natural atmospheric water that had to be raised off the ground mass, to put back into the heavenly body to form a huge cloud amassing to block out the Sun irradiation gas burning state..to contradict it.

Why ground human owned water mass puts the male human image into CLOUDS.....when previously all you saw was the images of DEVILS/SATAN in the cloud mass from UFO satellites streaming burning radiation to Earth...when the Rivers of the Saviour asteroid gases go dries. The song even says it.....you will return to the scene of the crime, and Salvation will reign down on you one more time.
 

Jacob Samuelson

Active Member
Fascinating. This is new to me. Why should non-Christians - some of which are real heretics to Christianity - benefit, though they remain sinful?

Great question! I'm not sure how deep I'll take this but In order to answer this, Let us give God his sovereignty and remove Christianity out of the equation.

To God all of His creations are equal. There is none above the other. Jews happened to be his Chosen people, in a Christian perspective, not as an elite group, but as a primary group or the pioneers of our religion. The first to receive his word. Nevertheless, I don't believe he was a respecter of persons.

That being said, and this will stray from many different Christian theology so don't take it as Christian but as perspective of my beliefs , but it is really important to understand what happened before we received this mortal flesh. God spoke to Jeremiah in Jeremiah 1:5 and mentioned a little bit about his existence before this earth was. I believe that there was a pre-mortal existence where we were all a part of. That is where not many Christian agree with.

What they do agree with is that there was (or will be) a war in heaven between Lucifer or Satan and Michael. A third part of heaven followed Lucifer, and the rest followed ultimately God. Now, if we were in that war, meaning our premortal spiritual bodies, and we received physical bodies, that means that we chose and followed the two-thirds that opposed Satan and followed God. By virtue of this choice, which was to come to earth and obtain a physical body. We, no matter how wicked or sinful we turn out to be, have chosen to obtain a body, instead of an evil spirit which Satan and his followers chose in the beginning, therefore, we obtain a resurrected body as well both good or evil.

Because of that one choice to defy the evil one, and chose the plan that God laid out for us in the beginning we obtain at least part of his blessing.

NOW, that is not suggesting that evil and wicked people obtain ALL of God's promises. Again, the law must be satisfied, and I think you know that rest of what Christians think about that.

I hope I didn't go to deep with this question and you didn't get lost with all of my premortal explanation, Its hard to putting a puzzle together for me without all the other pieces intact.
 
Top