The Baptism of Christ

[lukethethird]

It is written in the Gospel of St. Matthew 3:13-15

Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

What is the wisdom of this: since Christ possessed all essential perfection, why did He need baptism?

He had a dark side that no one wants to address.

 

[Desert Snake]

He had a dark side that no one wants to address.

If there were something definite to address, I would. Ultimately if Jesus were without sin, a sin redemption baptism means something else. As the baptism of or by Jesus, is of the Spirit, note Acts of the Apostles, placing any sort of 'magical aspect', to the baptism of Jesus, contradicts Him being without sin, is against the religious perspective generally, can't mean necessity, [the Prophets weren't baptized, and can't mean it saves, either, while were at it.

 

[metis]

[the Prophets weren't baptized, and can't mean it saves, either, while were at it.

We don't know if they were or weren't but the use of the mikvah was commonly used before Jesus' time. Even the use of the mikvah may have been a spin-off of the priestly rite of handwashing prior to conducting sacrifices at the Temple, which is a ritual cleansing, including in a spiritual manner.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I am working on a reply, but I have not finished it. Would you prefer the short version or the long version. I agree with what Metis has said.

Respond according to your belief and what you feel is appropriate.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Is there is a case to be made for Jesus initially being a disciple of John the Baptist?

The purpose of John's ministry appears to be preparing people for the advent of the Messiah. (Luke 3:4, Isaiah 40:3). Regardless John the Bpatist appears to have instantly recognised who Jesus was, the greatly elevated station of Christ in relation to his own self, and understood what needed to happen and why. John's words and baptism of Christ better enabled John's followers to recognise Jesus as the Promised One and attain their goal.

 

[12jtartar]

It is written in the Gospel of St. Matthew 3:13-15

Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

What is the wisdom of this: since Christ possessed all essential perfection, why did He need baptism?

adrian009,
Part of the answer to your question was in the question. Jesus was perfect,he never sinned, but he was not perfect in every way.
Remember, God sent Jesus to give his life as a Ransom Sacrifice for all mankind who would accept his offer. All the earth was to be given to Jesus as an inheritance. By Jesus coming to earth as a man and suffering, he became perfect for all that his Father sent him for, Hebrews 2:8-10, 5:7-10. The Bible tells us that God even exalted Jesus to a superior place because of what he did for God and for us, Philippians 2:5-9, Romans 5:8-11, 1Timothy 2:5.
Because of what Jesus did, he has now become a King, and will rule over this earth forever, just as the angel Gabriel told Mary, before Jesus was born on earth, Luke 1:30-33.
Jesus was baptized as a symbol of death to a former life and a beginning of a new life, for us, and Baptism was to Jesus, the beginning of his Ministery on earth, 1Peter 2:21. Agape!!!

 

[Ellen Brown]

You got that right kiddo, I ain't no JW. And you can be as disrespectful to me as you so choose, believe me, I will lose no sleep over anything you have to say. If you choose to believe the KJV, which has been shown to have more erroneous interpretations and erroneous translations than the majority of Bibles, apart from the GNB, that is your God given right.

As long as you live according to the teachings of the Lord as spoken through the mouth of his obedient servant Jesus, which is, "Do unto others as you would have them do to you," you will be alright.

Deuteronomy 18-19; KJV; "I will raise up for them a prophet from among their brethren like unto thee, and will put 'MY WORDS' in his mouth; and he will speak everything I command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not harken to MY WORDS that he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."

I found your little web page, and must say that condemning and frightening speech about God is one of the reasons I left Christianity. You practice an angry and condemning Creator, and at my age, I've faced enough of that. Everyday I try to please God as hard as I can. Pretty much, the Christians I know seem to do their best to discredit it. God's desires for us are simple.

 

[Ellen Brown]

You got that right kiddo, I ain't no JW. And you can be as disrespectful to me as you so choose, believe me, I will lose no sleep over anything you have to say. If you choose to believe the KJV, which has been shown to have more erroneous interpretations and erroneous translations than the majority of Bibles, apart from the GNB, that is your God given right.

As long as you live according to the teachings of the Lord as spoken through the mouth of his obedient servant Jesus, which is, "Do unto others as you would have them do to you," you will be alright.

Deuteronomy 18-19; KJV; "I will raise up for them a prophet from among their brethren like unto thee, and will put 'MY WORDS' in his mouth; and he will speak everything I command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not harken to MY WORDS that he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."

For my whole childhood I was beaten and yelled at by someone like you, and I won't stand for it any more. I'm sending you to electronic void.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Respond according to your belief and what you feel is appropriate.

I like the depth and language of the Bible, but I don't like mystery language in the NT. I bitterly resent it because of my subjugation through it (for someone's $$ profit). Its expressive and beautiful but is commonly used to mislead, and that should not be so easy. While I talk here about denial of self and its meaning to these writers, I'm ironically angry. I am unregenerate. I feel like Moses looking into a land he may not enter. These are just words, but there is some love here.

It is written in the Gospel of St. Matthew 3:13-15

Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

What is the wisdom of this: since Christ possessed all essential perfection, why did He need baptism?

The baptism is required as a confession of sin not of anything he has done wrong but of mortal sin. Despite doing nothing wrong he is marked by sin which comes from the human heart. One of the Pauls calls this 'The Law of Sin in me'.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Jesus Human Heart:

Jesus in Matthew 15:19 is quoted to say that murder and all kinds of evil come from the heart. He is echoing statements by others, such as Jeremiah. Jesus presumably has a heart and also has the law of sin to contend with. In the gospels we are told that Jesus is tempted, but in the book James we are told that "each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed." (James 1:14) which provides an interesting spin on the story of Jesus temptation in the desert. Just as Jews believe that Jacob fights himself, I am convinced Jesus is fighting himself in the desert. He can't be tempted by someone else nor by God but only by his own heart.

Romans 7 develops a theory of the sinful nature of the human body. Its a philosophical argument that uses the Edenic imagery to make the following statement: Romans 7:18 NIV "For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature...." Romans 7 alludes to reasons why Jesus death is considered to function as a sacrifice. By extension it mentions the deaths of martyrs in general -- why they die, why Jesus dies and how his obedience and suffering atones. Mystically it argues that Jesus body is sinful, so it is rightfully destroyed with Jesus full approval. Jesus however is approved spiritually, and part of Jesus is resurrected. It divides people into an evil loathsome part and a logos part. Where I differ from most people is the size of the logos part which many consider to be something going to an afterlife party and do not take literally the accounts of physical resurrections. They are beautiful and make points, but they completely miss the point if taken literally.

Hebrews 5:9 says Jesus becomes perfect through suffering and obedience to God which suggests an understanding that Jesus doesn't start out life perfect. It appears to somewhat clash with the theory of immaculate conception, but keep in mind we are talking about two different things there. Immaculate conception is about Logos and is put into perspective in John. In John the Logos comes through Jesus, yet Jesus the man must be baptized. It is not his DNA which is immaculate nor his human heart. Acts 13:33 implies that Jesus is declared to be Son of God through resurrection and alludes to Psalm 16:10 "Your faithful one will not see decay" which is about Israel. In fact Acts is talking about more than one person and lets us know through this and other verse references. Secrets need not be kept, and this is not the Roman empire anymore. When Acts refers to such a passage lets be straight about it, avoid confusion and not cause fundamentalists further suffering.

Allow me to refer to Psalm 22 as the Psalm of Forgiveness. This Psalm of Forgiveness makes no sense in the angry human heart; but it is Logos, the creation of a new world a world without anger. This is power to forgive and could be the Vine of David mentioned in the Didache. Psalm 22:26 "The poor will eat and be satisfied; those who seek the LORD will praise him—?may your hearts live forever!" Psalm 22 represents the ultimate triumph of forgiveness. Its why people convert, although that reason is reworded and re-explained other ways. Its the battery powering the martyr, and if we plug it in we gain power to forgive and can become martyrs ourselves. The result of that power is obvious in the world today. We don't have to imagine it, and it is this that the prophets and the martyrs need us to continue doing. Jesus story answers the question that he asks upon the cross "My God. My God. Why have you forsaken me?" This is the question of a martyr posed in Psalm 22:1. The Psalm would be a mystery to someone unfamiliar with forgiveness, but for us it should be revelatory.

Jesus baptism is a confession; and we are all required to make the same one; but it is more than that.

 

[Brickjectivity]

United, Buried, New Life

Baptism is like leaving Egypt, passing through the Red Sea, and it is the birth of a new creature. You leave behind all that was yourself in that place, take on a new shared person-hood. The three synoptic gospels record Jesus saying we must deny ourselves if we are to follow him: Matthew 16:24, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23. This means its a common understanding that should be present in the minds of all writers of the NT and in our own minds when we read them. It affects resurrection, because obviously I cannot be what is resurrected since I do not exist. That is baptism. I am no more and in my place something new and eternal appears, something that won't rot away as I will and should.

Hebrews 11:40 "...since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect." A statement that the saints and prophets have not achieved perfection but that we are to help them do it. This also ties in with your thread about the bread of heaven and manna. Even the saints and even the prophets need us to carry on their work which is not complete. By the way I am not suggesting people should become superstitious and pretend to have magic powers or to speak on God's behalf. That would be vile. I am saying that the prophets work can't be perfected without our own, ongoing work.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Towards Perfection:

So what is baptism about if its not about entering the afterlife and seeing your buddies again? It is not a great pity for us to die because of what appears in our place a new creature which is not us -- which is what some misinterpret scriptures to claim. What truly is a pity is someone who believes that repentence is not resurrection, that this corrupt body is somehow going to become eternal with its personality and its loves and hates. The concept is unspiritual, selfish and forgetful of Jesus words that we must deny ourselves.

1 John 4:18 suggests a belief that we can be made perfect through love. "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love."

Progressing from fear of death to acceptance of the new creation prepares us for the next stage of life after baptism: sanctification.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Santification:

This is an ongoing process in which others are born into the new creation through the work. People are baptized and die, and new creatures appear. Physically we don't kill anybody, but we recognize that they are dead, each one denying themselves.

Little do we expect it from the opening, but 1 Peter begins to explain how sanctification works and explains much, leading up to a characterization of baptism as living through the great flood. I am just going to do a brief commentary on some of the verses in 1 Peter.

• 1Peter 1:9-10 "for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls. Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care," The prophets searched the Torah to understand this which would come about but did not recieve it in their time. This, what Peter is talking about is the goal of the faith which his readers are receiving now, not tomorrow. Their souls are being saved....now. Also not in an afterlife but now, since they are already in the new creation. Its not about escape from this world but about changing it: sanctification.
  It does not mean they will individually be sharing beers in the afterlife. This is not Muslim or Egyptian, no offense intended. Its an early Christian letter.
  
• 11 "trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow." This is where he starts talking about sanctification, the suffering of Jesus and prepares to speak about the suffering of martyrs. That he says "Glories" and not just "Glory" suggests ongoing work and future impact and ties into Hebrews 11 statement that they will not be perfected without us. The word "Glories" is a key word in 1 Peter, so we will return to it.
• 21 "Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God." The interlinear says 'Gave him glory.'

This is the beginning of explaining how sanctification works and how we can atone for others. The key is to be glorified as Peter explains in this booklet. It begins with baptism, the rejection of our unforgiveness, our old selves which we consider dead and embrace of a new life lived doing good work -- just like Jesus ministry begins. He puts the past behind, so that the lesser can baptize the greater.

The good work and the forgiveness provide opportunities to atone, but the old life must go.

• 22 "purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart." Don't let use of the word 'Heart' confuse. We can't get rid of our hearts, but we can love other people with them by considering the old ways to be part of our past lives.
• 23 "For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God." This is the term 'Logos' as used in John. The old life is replaced with a seed not of humanity but of Logos. The old ways are done away with to make room for more loving ones.
• 24-25 "For, 'All people are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord endures forever.' And this is the word that was preached to you." Peter here is showing that the resurrection is not about us but about the Logos in us, but that is something a lot of people disagree with. I'm just saying it, because I want to clarify what I think I am reading here in passing. I don't want to be misunderstood or for people to presume that I am Ok with Christianity being about going away to live in the afterlife. I'm not Ok with that at all, and I don't think its correct. Lets not fight about it, because I think if people start loving each other properly the doctrines will correct themselves. For those who wonder I am not Ok with enforcing doctrines through pretense or through superstition, and I don't like Shibboleths. Be as clear as possible I think. Get rid of the inner circle thing if there is one. For goodness sakes have a heart.
  
  He says the glory of people is like flowers that fade but that the glory God gives you is not.

Now here is what Jesus baptism which we are to be baptized in and a more general atonement (than Moses atonement) explained:

• 2:21 "To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps."
• 23 "When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly." This is the path of a martyr, but why would a martyr be insulted or attacked? That is explained in chapter 3, so we skip forward then back here.
• 3:15-16 "...Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander." So they will speak maliciously against your good behavior. That is to be expected, because you will not be behaving as others expect. This is following the life of Jesus and of martyrs in general.
• 1:7 "These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed." Notice this word 'Glory' appears and means God gives you glory like God does to Jesus.

It sounds crazy, but sanctification has worked and changed the world. Wrapping it up the process of sanctification is thus: You change, they don't believe you are right in the head. Then they accuse you of not being so, and you prove it wrong by being awesome. They may change and do the same thing sometimes when they see that you are serious. Maybe they kill your body in the process. Its Sanctification, and it begins with baptism and rejection of the old ways.

Sanctification does not progress well when you are living in hopes that you can escape this world and go to la la land. That is not baptism but escapism. Martyrs don't do that. Its not resurrection. That is enslavement and abuse. People choose to do the right thing, to put the old self away; and that is how God works. Its called 'Repentance', and nobody can do it for us. Its real, and it works. Superstition does not work and merely plays into the hands of con-artists.

So, anyone want to be baptized, now? We'll fill a tub to prepare you for your symbolic death.

 

[The Anointed]

Is there is a case to be made for Jesus initially being a disciple of John the Baptist?

The purpose of John's ministry appears to be preparing people for the advent of the Messiah. (Luke 3:4, Isaiah 40:3). Regardless John the Bpatist appears to have instantly recognised who Jesus was, the greatly elevated station of Christ in relation to his own self, and understood what needed to happen and why. John's words and baptism of Christ better enabled John's followers to recognise Jesus as the Promised One and attain their goal.

John the Baptist, the first cousin of Mary the mother of Jesus, definitely knew Jesus who was being groomed by the zealots to take the throne of David, but he did not know that he was the one who was to Baptise with the Holy Spirit and John admits it.

First of all, we know that John did recognize his cousin's son, and believed that he was not worthy enough to Baptise him, but he did know until after he had baptized Jesus that he was the one chosen to baptize with the Holy Spirit.

John 1:30-34; "This is He on behalf of whom I said, After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ 31 I did not recognize Him, but so that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing in water.” 32 John testified saying, I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.”

So John did not instantly recognise who Jesus was, the greatly elevated station of Christ in relation to his own self, It was only after he had seen the spirit of the Lord descending upon him in the form of a dove, and heard the heavenly voice say; "You are my Son, THIS DAY (The day of his baptism) I have begotten thee."

Of course John was to later doubt if he really was the promised one, or whether they had to wait for another.
Surely John would never have doubted, if he, for one moment believed that his cousin Mary was still a virgin after she had conceived the child.

 

[robocop (actually)]

It is written in the Gospel of St. Matthew 3:13-15

Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

What is the wisdom of this: since Christ possessed all essential perfection, why did He need baptism?

The idea is: Before baptism and the sacrament comes repentance. Repentance is a wonderful plan. Jesus gives us His blessings but only if we repent. However we are all capable of repenting. It helps us the most and it helps Him the most. Repentance is probably one of the best things to talk about. Commandments include being industrious and all the basic principles to have a prosperous society.

Baptism is a symbolic step that you are willing to follow Jesus... for a person who is well enough initiated it may be very important to show this so that He can trust them as well, enabling Him to work harder with them to help them. Christ was baptized because He was the life making Him a model and sacrament renews baptism.

 

[InChrist]

It is written in the Gospel of St. Matthew 3:13-15

Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

What is the wisdom of this: since Christ possessed all essential perfection, why did He need baptism?

I think the baptism of Jesus served various important purposes including; acknowledgement of His public ministry, the presentation of the ultimate sacrifice, the Lamb of God, for the sins of the world, His identification with sinful humanity, Jesus' approval of John's baptism as a symbolic picture of dying to sin and self and rising to new life in Christ, and finally a display of the triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit working together in the salvation those who repent and believe.

Why was Jesus baptized? Why was Jesus' baptism important?

 

[Faithofchristian]

It is written in the Gospel of St. Matthew 3:13-15

Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

What is the wisdom of this: since Christ possessed all essential perfection, why did He need baptism?

Christ Jesus needed to be baptized, to accomplish where Israel and Adam and Eve had failed at.

Where Adam and Eve failed in the garden of Eden in Genesis chapter 3 with the serpent.

Christ Jesus after being baptized went up into a high mountain to be tried by the
serpent ( Satan) to accomplish what Adam and Eve failed at. In defeating the serpent ( Satan)
Matthew 4:1-11.

Now as for Israel, Back at the time of Moses and Israel were out in the desert for
40 nights and 40 days.

Christ Jesus after being baptized went up into a high mountain in the desert,
for 40 nights and 40 days to accomplish where Israel failed for not obeying the Lord.

The book of Joshua 5:6---"For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the Lord: unto whom the Lord sware that he would not shew them the land, which the Lord sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey"

So you see where Adam and Eve and Israel failed at, Christ Jesus set the record straight, by defeating Satan.

You see when Adam and Eve failed, then Satan claimed to be the god of the earth, But now that Christ Jesus defeating Satan, Reclaimed the earth back to himself.
But to totally destroy Satan it's all written about this in the book of Revelation. Where Satan is destroyed totally and those who follow Satan are cast into the lake of fire with Satan and his angels.

 

[pearl]

We don't know if they were or weren't but the use of the mikvah was commonly used before Jesus' time. Even the use of the mikvah may have been a spin-off of the priestly rite of handwashing prior to conducting sacrifices at the Temple, which is a ritual cleansing, including in a spiritual manner.

Its interesting that so much of the Temple liturgy is found in the Mass.
Jesus would, before saying his prayers, cover his head with his cloak. This before Vatican II was kept in the prayer a priest said before putting on his robes before Mass.
The washing of a priest’s hands before the Eucharist, corresponded to the ablutions of a Jew before prayers. The standing during the gospels is, in Jewish liturgy, the standing for the Torah. The prayers of the offertory are the prayers of the Jewish Benediction before a meal.
The Sanctus is a direct quote from the Jewish prayer the Quedushah, while the ending of the maranatha when we say “Come Lord Jesus” is there in the invocation for the coming of the Messiah in the Jewish Shemoneh Esreh said daily.

The structure of the Mass recalls the structure of the Temple service and sacrifice. The beating of the breast at the Kyries repeats the Jewish beating of the breast as a sign of mourning or of repentance.
The octave after Christmas or Easter, is the week kept by Jews after every major feast. The beni-toi with its holy water, sign of baptism and once placed at the entrance of Catholic homes, takes the place of the Shema Israel encased in the wall before the entry into Jewish homes. And the readings of the Easter Vigil are the Passover readings Jesus would have known.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The Muslims don't do any sort of Baptism. The prayers are 5 times a day, and work out to about 10-12 minutes a session. Ritual Wudu (Washing) is usually not done every time, and a woman on her mense can not pray. Were it up to me, I'd give them a pass on trying to please God, and him decide.

For Muslims they recite the Shahada to declare their faith so it’s a type of baptism just in a verbal form.

Shahada - Wikipedia

 

[Ellen Brown]

For Muslims they recite the Shahada to declare their faith so it’s a type of baptism just in a verbal form.

Shahada - Wikipedia

I'd forgotten.