The Baptist ?

[monti]

God sees those who believe in His son as without sin. God also sees those who followed the Law as having their sin covered.

well john belived in the son of god he prepared the way, he seen the dove, so john then was without sin.
Thank you for that.

I didn't just make this up or assume boulship.

I believe you. But who ever told you may well have done.

There is a very good foundation for this being true.

Yes you keep suggesting that, but not shown me anything in the scriptures that backs up anything you have said thus far. What you have done is give me your interpretation and opinion. Which is fine, but you should expect to be questioned as to why you have such opinions without feeling you are somehow under attack.
How do we ever expect understand anything unless we question?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

well john belived in the son of god he prepared the way, he seen the dove, so john then was without sin.
Thank you for that.

You misunderstood. Go back and read it again grasshopper.

I believe you. But who ever told you may well have done.

I do my own research.

Yes you keep suggesting that, but not shown me anything in the scriptures that backs up anything you have said thus far. What you have done is give me your interpretation and opinion. Which is fine, but you should expect to be questioned as to why you have such opinions without feeling you are somehow under attack.
How do we ever expect understand anything unless we question?

That's because I do not wish to waste my time. Do some of your own research with an unbiased eye or show some willingness to learn something or at least read what I write properly.

 

[monti]

He did not prepare the way.

I didn't say he did. but the scriptures say as such.

Jesus followed John, and it was a emberrassment for the unknown authors who wrote these books.

I can agree with that. there are many parts of the NT that were revealed to be embarrassing not just to the gospel writers, but to the early christian church.

Jesus learned from John .

John wasnt just any teacher, he is the one who taught Jesus.

The Mandaeans certainly revered John above Jesus and do so to this day.They believe Jesu was a deceiver and a liar. All very interesting stuff when researched and studied. and not just taken at face value, I'm sure you would agree.

Our oldest account Mark, doesnt deal with any mythological birth accounts at all.

Yes I know. The synoptics don't deal with what has to be the first and greatest 'miracle' either do they. The raising of Lazarus. One would have though that this above all miracles would feature in all four gospels. and again, it makes me wonder why it was that Jesus din't raise the great prophet the baptist.

 

[outhouse]

These are two separate issues.

What do you mean?

 

[outhouse]

The Mandaeans certainly revered John above Jesus and do so to this day.They believe Jesu was a deceiver and a liar. All very interesting stuff when researched and studied. and not just taken at face value, I'm sure you would agree.
.

The Mandaeans information is all late and not really reliable. But other then that yes

To far removed from any actual event

 

[monti]

You misunderstood. Go back and read it again grasshopper.

why attack the questioner with childish name calling instead of addressing the question.

I do my own research.

So you should, you might eventually see the gaping inconsistencies, contradictions and deceitfulness of jesus, when you scratch the surface of the gospels.

Do some of your own research with an unbiased eye

That is exactly what I do. I look at it as an outsider looking in, without religious bias and have found many flaws throughout of the New Testament, from beginning to end. If my questions offend you, simply do not reply.

how many times was John murdered? That is a simple question. you do not have to address it.
Can a dead man be resurrected into a living man ?
That is a simple question. you do not have to address it.
What wondrous things did John do?
That is a simple question. you do not have to address it.

 

[monti]

Is sounds more to me that you are here with an agenda and not a search for Biblical perspective.

That is more of your opinion of me and is of no relevance.. why not address the questions, or simply ignore them.

 

[monti]

Well since you can't answer that question then there is no reason to answer why Jesus did not resurrect him.

I thought I had answered, the scriptures tell us he was here to prepare the way of the lord and to call everyone to repent.
But you haven't told me what it was that Jesus the sinless son of god, had to repent.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I thought I had answered, the scriptures tell us he was here to prepare the way of the lord and to call everyone to repent.
But you haven't told me what it was that Jesus the sinless son of god, had to repent.

Perhaps you could put two sentences together that relate to each other. Then I will answer.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

why attack the questioner with childish name calling instead of addressing the question.

Let's start here then. You misunderstood what I said. Go back and read it again and stop waiting on me to do your English comprehension for you.

 

[monti]

Perhaps you could put two sentences together that relate to each other. Then I will answer.

You haven't a clue have you?
Did you miss these?
how many times was John murdered? That is a simple question. you do not have to address it.
Can a dead man be resurrected into a living man ?
That is a simple question. you do not have to address it.
What wondrous things did John do?
That is a simple question. you do not have to address it.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

What do you mean?

There is a difference between preparing the way of the Lord and preparing the Lord. Also, who taught Jesus before He was teaching in the temple at age 13? John?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

You haven't a clue have you?
Did you miss these?
how many times was John murdered? That is a simple question. you do not have to address it.
Can a dead man be resurrected into a living man ?
That is a simple question. you do not have to address it.
What wondrous things did John do?
That is a simple question. you do not have to address it.

Dude. I gave you a simple statement that you read improperly. You have failed to ask me what that was or go back and see yet you want to continue a debate. How am I supposed to help you?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Why that is after reading that John the Baptist’s parents were said to be “blameless” and seemingly from good stock, why is that John believed he was in need of baptism? He was after all the son of a priest, and he was the immaculately conceived messenger of god?

Alright grasshopper, let's go back to the beginning. Read this about blamelessness;
Blameless - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology Online

As far as john being "immaculately conceived" it's already been shown, Biblically, why this is not true.

 

[Pegg]

I thought you were doing well until here. Adam had the ability to sin. Evidence, he sinned. The only thing that changed in Adam was his residence, choice in clothing and his demise. That death passed upon all men was a consequence of Adam's sin. The wages of sin is death according to Romans. After death, all will be resurrected for judgement. We will all be judged on our sin. The exemption from the subsequent wrath of God upon sinners is belief in Jesus.

but what doesnt make sense is that if the "wages sin pays is death", then of what more is there to be judged in the resurrection? It cant be the sins you already died for.

Sinners are sentenced for the sins they commit in this life. That means, when they die, they have been judged and judgement was already executed upon them. And this is shown by the fact that every person who has died has been aqcuitted for their sins according to Romans 6:7 For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin


and if we are acquitted from our sins when we die, then when we are resurrected in the future, there is a clean slate before us with no sins to judge.

So what do you think the 'judgement day' during the resurrection could be judging??

Now, as to Jesus being baptized, the Bible says it was to fulfill scripture but I'm not aware it ever clarifies exactly what that means.

here is what the WT teaching is in this regard:

Jesus’ Baptism in Water.
The baptism of Jesus himself as performed by John must of necessity have had a meaning and purpose quite different from John’s baptism, as Jesus “committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth.” (1Pe 2:22) So he could not submit to an act symbolizing repentance. Undoubtedly it was for this reason that John objected to baptizing Jesus. But Jesus said: “Let it be, this time, for in that way it is suitable for us to carry out all that is righteous.”—Mt 3:13-15.
Luke states that Jesus was praying at the time of his baptism. (Lu 3:21) Further, the writer of the letter to the Hebrews says that when Jesus Christ came “into the world” (that is, not when he was born and could not read and say these words, but when he presented himself for baptism and began his ministry) he was saying, in accord with Psalm 40:6-8 (LXX): “Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me.*.*.*. Look! I am come (in the roll of the book it is written about me) to do your will, O God.” (Heb 10:5-9)
Jesus was by birth a member of the Jewish nation, which nation was in a national covenant with God, namely, the Law covenant. (Ex 19:5-8; Ga 4:4) Jesus, by reason of this fact, was therefore already in a covenant relationship with Jehovah God when he thus presented himself to John for baptism.
Jesus was there doing something more than what was required of him under the Law. He was presenting himself to his Father Jehovah to do his Father’s “will” with reference to the offering of his own “prepared” body and with regard to doing away with animal sacrifices that were offered according to the Law.
The apostle Paul comments: “By the said ‘will’ we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.” (Heb 10:10) The Father’s will for Jesus also involved activity in connection with the Kingdom, and for this service too Jesus presented himself. (Lu 4:43; 17:20,*21)
Jehovah accepted and acknowledged this presentation of his Son, anointing him with holy spirit and saying: “You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.”—Mr 1:9-11; Lu 3:21-23; Mt 3:13-17.
Insight on the scriptures pg 249-250

 

[sandy whitelinger]

but what doesnt make sense is that if the "wages sin pays is death", then of what more is there to be judged in the resurrection?

Death is a consequence not a punishment. Death does not absolve man from the wrath of God being upon sinners. Even after death man is resurrected unto judgement. The absolution from God's wrath comes from the atonement of the death of Christ.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Jesus was there doing something more than what was required of him under the Law. He was presenting himself to his Father Jehovah to do his Father’s “will” with reference to the offering of his own “prepared” body and with regard to doing away with animal sacrifices that were offered according to the Law.

I see nothing in your quote that equates being baptized with presenting Himself to Jehovah.

 

[Pegg]

I see nothing in your quote that equates being baptized with presenting Himself to Jehovah.

well if you believe Jesus was sinless, then he certainly could not have been getting baptised as a symbol of his repentance for his sins.


So his baptism must have symbolised something....but certainly not repentance from sin for 'repent' means to 'turn away' from sins committed.

 

[Pegg]

Death is a consequence not a punishment. Death does not absolve man from the wrath of God being upon sinners. Even after death man is resurrected unto judgement. The absolution from God's wrath comes from the atonement of the death of Christ.

if you want to call it a consequence, thats fine. Its both a consequence and a punishment.

There can be no further punishment after death for the bible says the dead know nothing...they have no knowledge or memory and no thought. So how can someone suffer in that condition? Its like being in a coma.

Psalm 146:4 His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.

no thought = no consciousness

 

[ChristineES]

yes, you do but that is not true is it?




and neither does it say he did. Indeed everything points to him being 'righteous and without sin'
but that is of course a matter of opinion and interpretation.




yes I have I have researched that verse and found "to be born of women" to be an insult, it means lowest of the low...
But that is also an opinion of extra biblical sources. As was the line from Simon peter in the gnostic gospels saying " let Mary leave us for women are not worthy of life".


I am more interested in your/the believers interpretation, this is why I am here, I have come here to ask questions. Do you find this difficult or unsettling? because you shouldn't, you should welcome it.

No, this discussion isn't in the least disturbing to me. It is in Religious Debate and I am treating it as such. I simply disagree. John the Baptist was no doubt a very good man, and since Jesus said so, I believe that. But I don't believe that John never sinned. What I meant was that I can accept that someone else has a different opinion.