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The battle of evolution vs creationism

Simurgh

Atheist Triple Goddess
Who here wants the very next thing that Call_of_the_Wild addresses to be the endogenous retrovirus (ERV) issue?


I am fine with that, considering he never actually responds to anything with any semblance of substance and chose to limit himself to trying to shut me up by throwing that wanna-be academic Craig at me as if anything that guy has to say was of any scientific (or academic) value.

If responding mentally drains him anyhow, we should not make this hard on him. so one question at a time, throw in some graphs and, if possible, simple videos and see how that works.
 

McBell

Unbound
I am fine with that, considering he never actually responds to anything with any semblance of substance and chose to limit himself to trying to shut me up by throwing that wanna-be academic Craig at me as if anything that guy has to say was of any scientific (or academic) value.

If responding mentally drains him anyhow, we should not make this hard on him. so one question at a time, throw in some graphs and, if possible, simple videos and see how that works.

How are you going to remove his special rose coloured glasses?
 

Simurgh

Atheist Triple Goddess
How are you going to remove his special rose coloured glasses?
surgery comes to mind, but then i am not very good at that. then i thought about reality pills, but he has rejected them soundly. So i guess, that only leaves a medicinal pat on the head and walking away in the hope that reality will, at some point, intercede with his perception of the world.


...not holding my breath for that either...
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
If you don't see the difference in microevolution (different varieties of the same kind), and macroevolution (changes to a different kind), then I can't help.
And if you can't see that "kind" is a meaningless term invented to obfuscate the issue and that evolution doesn't require any living organism to produce anything other than A VARIATION on what it is, then I very much doubt you can "help" anyone.

Even in the definition you gave, evolutionists believe this on a much grand(er) scale than what is necessary.
I don't think you even understand what evolution actually states. I've already made you look incredibly foolish when you became confused over the classification of dogs vs. wolves, and stated that wolves were a kind of dog - even though wolves existed before dogs did. You have zero understanding of biology or biological classifications, and yet you think you can lecture people on here about how evolution is false? You seriously need to pull your head from the sand and admit when you're wrong instead of running around in circles like you do. The fact that all you ever do is repeat your refuted arguments over and over again without any understanding of how they are flawed is proof of your ignorance on this subject and your refusal/inability to face the facts.
 

Simurgh

Atheist Triple Goddess
And if you can't see that "kind" is a meaningless term invented to obfuscate the issue and that evolution doesn't require any living organism to produce anything other than A VARIATION on what it is, then I very much doubt you can "help" anyone.


I don't think you even understand what evolution actually states. I've already made you look incredibly foolish when you became confused over the classification of dogs vs. wolves, and stated that wolves were a kind of dog - even though wolves existed before dogs did. You have zero understanding of biology or biological classifications, and yet you think you can lecture people on here about how evolution is false? You seriously need to pull your head from the sand and admit when you're wrong instead of running around in circles like you do. The fact that all you ever do is repeat your refuted arguments over and over again without any understanding of how they are flawed is proof of your ignorance on this subject and your refusal/inability to face the facts.


ach, now you took the fun out of this pseudo-debate. you should have been a bit more obfuscatory about that. then we could have gone a few more rounds in circles. dogs so love to chase their tails, well cats do too.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
And if you can't see that "kind" is a meaningless term invented to obfuscate the issue and that evolution doesn't require any living organism to produce anything other than A VARIATION on what it is, then I very much doubt you can "help" anyone.


I don't think you even understand what evolution actually states. I've already made you look incredibly foolish when you became confused over the classification of dogs vs. wolves, and stated that wolves were a kind of dog - even though wolves existed before dogs did. You have zero understanding of biology or biological classifications, and yet you think you can lecture people on here about how evolution is false? You seriously need to pull your head from the sand and admit when you're wrong instead of running around in circles like you do. The fact that all you ever do is repeat your refuted arguments over and over again without any understanding of how they are flawed is proof of your ignorance on this subject and your refusal/inability to face the facts.


Sometimes I think wilful ignorance should be a crime
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Who here wants the very next thing that Call_of_the_Wild addresses to be the endogenous retrovirus (ERV) issue?

*Raises Hand*

For all who are willing, I propose that we temporarily suspend all other debating until CotW has demonstrated his claimed ability to explain the ERV similarities between humans and chimpanzee using the creationism model. The reason I ask for this is because of this statement:



If we can agree to hold off on responses unrelated to the ERVs, then CotW won't really have any excuse for not addressing it. Alternatively, everyone here could just keep pushing the ERV issue relentlessly until he either addresses it or ignores it and leaves. I suspect that he will still come up with some other excuse. If he could have addressed it, I'm sure he would have already if for no reason other than to shut me up.

For all interested parties, here are some links with some background information on ERVs and related concepts:
*Endogenous retrovirus - Wikipedia
*Long terminal repeat - Wikipedia
*The Gag, Pol and Env Proteins
*Three Layers of Endogenous Retroviral Evidence for the Evolutionary Model
*Responding to the "Evolution News & Views" articles addressing my essay on the ERV evidence for common ancestry
*Demystified...Human endogenous retroviruses
Absolutely. I would love to see his thoughts on ERV's. I hope he can be convinced to respond on something other than instagram (or whatever).


I suggest you give him a good chance to reply, and if he does not you should start a new thread on this topic and open it up to any creationist responses.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
And if you can't see that "kind" is a meaningless term invented to obfuscate the issue and that evolution doesn't require any living organism to produce anything other than A VARIATION on what it is, then I very much doubt you can "help" anyone.

Dogs produce dogs. Cats produce cats.

I don't think you even understand what evolution actually states. I've already made you look incredibly foolish when you became confused over the classification of dogs vs. wolves, and stated that wolves were a kind of dog - even though wolves existed before dogs did. You have zero understanding of biology or biological classifications, and yet you think you can lecture people on here about how evolution is false? You seriously need to pull your head from the sand and admit when you're wrong instead of running around in circles like you do. The fact that all you ever do is repeat your refuted arguments over and over again without any understanding of how they are flawed is proof of your ignorance on this subject and your refusal/inability to face the facts.

Fish produce fish. Bears produce bears. If you can't give me an exception, then no need to discuss anything further.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
You are still saying the sky is pineapples.

Look into genetics a little bit. There are plenty of good examples on this thread, if you would only take the time to educate yourself. Seriously, what do you have against learning?

Genetics? So what kind of genetics will change a reptile to a bird or vice versa?
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
I understand that you like him, and share the same religious faith positions as he does, but he isn't really a credible scholar
- certainly not in theology or the philosophy of religion at any rate.

Dr. Craig is a philosopher of religion. I wont even bother entertaining the idea that WLC isn't a credible scholar. Laughable. His resume speaks for itself.

Apparently he has some distinction with respect to his contributions to the "A-theory" of time, but other than that, his views are not relevant, he has made no vital contributions, his work is not influential, you will not typically see other scholars cite him in academic journals (even in relevant fields), and his reputation among his peers is extremely poor.

But he tries to defend the indefensible, which endears himself to the faithful; for whatever that's worth. I suppose he gets a couple of kudos points for having the cajones to stick his neck out for a view that is laughably untenable, though.

Laughable.
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
I suggest you give him a good chance to reply, and if he does not you should start a new thread on this topic and open it up to any creationist responses.
Yes, that sounds like an excellent idea.

What I think I'll do is start up a thread about the ERVs, find a bunch of creationist arguments about them and demonstrate why they are wrong (I've already found a bunch). I'll need some time to gather all the needed information together, but I think it should work out pretty well.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Genetics? So what kind of genetics will change a reptile to a bird or vice versa?
Mostly hox genes for body plan, other genes controlling traits for the other parts. The differences between any species, animal or plant, is mostly based on the genetic code (which can be change and does change), the other influence is environment and epigenetics (which isn't fully understood, but still a natural phenomenon rather than supernatural).

Reptile and birds share ancestors. The fossil record is replete with the intermediate steps.

With that, I'll let the others talk to you about the ERVs. I suggest you read up on genetics a little first to understand what it's all about, and look into transposons.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Dogs produce dogs. Cats produce cats.
And wolves produce wolves. Except, eventually, some of those wolves produced dogs - a subtype of wolf, just as wolves were produced by earlier canids and are, still, canids themselves. Everything produces what it is, but it does so with variation. Hence this "dogs produce dogs and cats produce cats" argument becomes not an argument at all, but merely a statement of something that evolution already fully accepts and aligns with.

Fish produce fish. Bears produce bears. If you can't give me an exception, then no need to discuss anything further.
See above. Done. Your argument is nonexistent.
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
Dr. Craig is a philosopher of religion.
No, not really, he's a Christian apologist and theologian. That's not the same thing at all.

I wont even bother entertaining the idea that WLC isn't a credible scholar. Laughable. His resume speaks for itself.
His resume shows precisely what I've described; some distinction with respect to the philosophy of time, and basically another average joe face in the crowd otherwise. His primary distinction in the philosophy of religion is as an arrogant, overrated, and dishonest apologist posing as a philosopher.

Laughable.
Indeed; I always get a good chuckle when people talk about WLC as if he were a serious scholar- and then you can't find his name anywhere on the H-index for theology or philosophy of religion. Oops! :D
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
Dogs produce dogs, and fish produce fish. How enlightening. Of course, sometimes dogs produce dogs, only slightly different, whose descendants produce even more slightly different dogs, until eventually one of these slightly different dogs can't breed with the original dogs- and then it isn't really a dog anymore at all. :shrug:
 

Simurgh

Atheist Triple Goddess
Dogs produce dogs, and fish produce fish. How enlightening. Of course, sometimes dogs produce dogs, only slightly different, whose descendants produce even more slightly different dogs, until eventually one of these slightly different dogs can't breed with the original dogs- and then it isn't really a dog anymore at all. :shrug:
maybe a visual is in order. it somewhat simplyfies things for those who easily fall prey to mental exhaustion. Irish Wolfhound and Chihuahua mix
79090_large.jpg
 
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