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The Believabliltiy of Evolution

cladking

Well-Known Member
Comparative genomics

Lol.

Yes. This is a very interesting field showing specific cases where biologists were completely wrong.

You are merely assuming that everything else must be right. I am not making that assumption.

Science has a long history of showing how we used to have just about everything wrong.

All of it converges on the exact same answer: gradual diversification.

I have little doubt that a great deal of "diversification" is "gradual". At least it's gradual from our perspective. A species will be limited to a single niche but because niches and species are continually changing at some point a species can jump into a new niche or an area can suddenly be populated by individuals which arrived by any sort of means. A fire grows but it also throws out embers that can catch where there is no fire. As niches expand the species expands. Some species even change environments to make them more habitable.

Individuals are infinitely complex but niches are infinite number of orders of magnitude more complex and species infinite number of orders of magnitude more complex than that. Of course time (what you call "evolution") adds another layer of infinite orders of magnitude of complexity. You think you can cut through all this complexity with definitions and axioms but I know you can't. Obviously we have gained a great deal of insight into how various systems and processes work and all of these insights can be extrapolated to a greater or lesser extent but we must not lose sight of what we really know and what is a product of what we believe.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Of course there are genetic characteristics that can improve or worsen an individual's chances of reproducing many or no viable off spring. Obviously a smarter, faster, larger, or greener rabbit could have a slightly better chance of surviving any given event. Of course, as well, any of these attributes could reduce the odds of survival. Without studying these specific characteristics and how they play out in the real world of a changing environment we are just guessing at what leads to survival and then we are guessing that the new fossils are representative of what was effective in a population where we don't understand a single case of an individual failing or succeeding. Of course some adaptations in the past and in the lab have very apparent causes and require very little extrapolation. If you kill 90% of a species with a toxin it's hardly surprising the next generation is more fit in terms of surviving that toxin. You could even dissect each victim and see exactly what killed it and study how some individuals actually got slightly more or less poison. You could get a lot of genetic insight into why each survivor didn't die by studying them. So?

You need to show that the characteristic that is represented was actually more likely to be represented and that all these many characteristics that are represented are actually what drives the changes observed. We can't really do that. We have merely extrapolated common sense in terms of our beliefs and a few experiments.

You seem to be focussing on the pixel and losing track of the bigger picture in the process.

Natural selection is an inevitable consequence of the condition of living. That's the larger point.
A second point, is that every newborn comes with a set of mutations. These mutations are random with respect to fitness. They might have no effect on fitness or they might reduce or increase it.

Natural selection in turn, is dependend on the selection pressures in the niche a population inhabits. That niche can stay stable and it can also change. If it changes, the selection pressures change as well.

When selection pressures stay the same, natural selection will favour the status quo.
It means species enter what is called the "local optimum" in genetic algorithms.

It essentially means that there are no obvious pathways left towards further increased fitness. If selection pressures change, new pathways might open up. This is when evolutionary change accelerates. Natural seleciton no longer favours the status quo. This is when species either "rapidly" change or go extinct (quotes, because we are talking about geological time here...).

These are well tested and observed principles that work so well that they are even used in optimization modules called "genetic algorithms".

This is the process of evolution. And it makes predictions. Predictions that can be tested. And when tested, they are confirmed. A generic prediction is that life is organized in nested hierarchies. And lo and behold, multiple indepent lines of evidence (genetic record, fossil record, distribution of species, distribution of fossils both geographically as well as chronologically, comparative anatomy, distribution of genetic markers,...), all converge on the same nested hierarchy. Aka a family tree.

This kind of evidence is sufficient to determine that you and your sibling are siblings, when all we have are DNA samples. It is sufficient to determine you and your cousin are actually cousins. It is sufficient to distinguish your cousin from your sibling from your parents from random people. All just by comparing anonymous DNA samples.

We can do this, because we understand how DNA works.
It allows us to determine kinship and common ancestral links. Small and large scale, the underlying principles are the same. It makes no sense to say it works for one but not the other.

If all we had was DNA of extant species, that alone would already be sufficient to determine that we share ancestry with the other species. But we have a lot more then that. We also have access to their anatomy, their geographic wherabouts and the fossil record. And all this independent lines of evidence all converge on the same answer we obtain from the genetic evidence.

When you have multiple independent lines of evidence all converging on the same answer and no data to contradict it, that's when you have an extremely solid case.

And one of those axioms is that populations are relatively stable even over the long term.

Huh? Who says that?
Considering that the consensus is that 99% of all species that ever lived are extinct today, I'ld say that that is clearly false.

One of our assumptions is that behavior has little to do with animal survival.

Who says that?
Of course that plays a role. Not the only role, obviously.

One of our assumptions is that we are much smarter than animals.
Although this might depend on how you define "smart", I think it's safe to say that we are quite intelligent and likely the most intelligent of species currently on this planet.


One of our assumptions is that By taking nature apart and studying a species we can extrapolate what is found to every individual.

No idea what you mean by that.

One of our assumptions is that animals don't even have consciousness

Obvious falsehood. Great apes even pass the "spot test", demonstrating that they are self-aware.

Although again, this might depend on how you are defining and using that word.
Perhaps you need to define it first.

and it's hardly necessary to know what a rabbit is thinking as it's being eaten by a rabbit.

I'm not aware of any rabbits eating other rabbits though. Having said that, I have no idea what you mean by this or how it is supposedly relevant.

EVERYTHING WE KNOW ABOUT EVOLUTION IS ONLY VALID WITHIN THOSE ASSUMPTION.

Seeing as several of these claimed assumptions are obviously false, I'm inclined to disagree.
What we know about evolution is based in fact, observation and verifiability.


To the degree any of these assumptions is wrong our conclusions can be wrong.

Literally nothing in evolution theory is dependend on the nonsense you spewed there.


I believe there are massive problems with these assumptions.

So do I. For starters, they are not at all assumptions that are relevant to evolution.

They are so massive that we even interpret experiment incorrectly.

Just for the fun of it, please explain that with an example.

Most people have lost sight of the foundations of modern science so they don't know what they know.

look who's talking.................................
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Common ancestry of species, is a genetic fact.

"Fact" might be too strong a word but I don't at all disagree.

I think we don't go nearly far enough in projecting a common ancestry. In light of the fact that oak trees and apes share so much genetic material and huge amounts of it have no known function is seems probable that life on earth came from outside of earth. Apparently the universe is so riddled with life that we are being constantly bombarded with it and when the planet BEGAN to approach the point that life could come into being it was "seeded" from the outside. This would also go a long way to explaining how it's possible for nature to adapt her species so quickly (your 'evolution" in this case) to a changing environment. In other words when niches evolve the species evolve to suit that niche. Niches change gradually, but in fits and starts) due to their complexity. Butr there is no "end point" in the change in niches and generally speaking the changes are going to relatively minor even over long periods.

I never said biologists have everything wrong (that is the job of Egyptology), rather I said that there perspective of change in species is wrong because they are looking at it wrong.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Lol.

Yes. This is a very interesting field showing specific cases where biologists were completely wrong.

You are merely assuming that everything else must be right. I am not making that assumption.

Science has a long history of showing how we used to have just about everything wrong.

Is that cladkingian for claiming that comparative genomics disprove evolution theory?
If it is, I'ld love you to explain hoz comparative genomics does that in your opinion. While you're at it, perhaps also explain how come that just about every working geneticist apparantly missed that.


I have little doubt that a great deal of "diversification" is "gradual". At least it's gradual from our perspective.

No, it's objectively the case that it's gradual. Members of species X don't give birth to members of species Y. Instead, it's a gradual progression over many generations.

Pretty much the same way in principle of how latin over time has changed to french, italian, spanish, ...
No latin speaking parent has ever raised a spanish speaking child. Spanish is not the invention of a single person, nore did a population start speaking spanish overnight.

Individuals are infinitely complex but niches are infinite number of orders of magnitude more complex and species infinite number of orders of magnitude more complex than that.

Please don't tell me that you're setting the stage for an argument from awe / incredulity..........


Of course time (what you call "evolution") adds another layer of infinite orders of magnitude of complexity. You think you can cut through all this complexity with definitions and axioms but I know you can't. Obviously we have gained a great deal of insight into how various systems and processes work and all of these insights can be extrapolated to a greater or lesser extent but we must not lose sight of what we really know and what is a product of what we believe.

Again, look who's talking..............

Contrary to some other people, I don't superimpose my beliefs on reality. Instead, I model my beliefs according to what we discover in reality. If reality contradicts my beliefs, then I change my believes.

Evolution is the conclusion of studying reality. And it's an extremely solid conclusion with extreme explanatory power, testability, mountains of evidence and no data to contradict it. So much so that the theory pretty much knows no equal in the whole of science in terms of explanatory power.

It seems to me that you are projecting your own faith-based flaws upon me.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Is that cladkingian for claiming that comparative genomics disprove evolution theory?

Of course it doesn't disprove anything. At a glance it seems to provide support for the concept of "evolution". I believe that support is actually ephemeral, perspective based, and largely unreal. it provides lots of important insight into change in species but it does a very poor job of showing the cause of any change,. It merely highlights change and patterns of change.

No, it's objectively the case that it's gradual. Members of species X don't give birth to members of species Y. Instead, it's a gradual progression over many generations.

That is unrelated to what I was talking about.

I was merely saying that species suddenly adapt to changes in their niche. All change in life in all ways is sudden. However niches can change almost glacially since a single parameter of a niche can cause massive population change. Small changes in environment can allow large changes in populations.

Please don't tell me that you're setting the stage for an argument from awe / incredulity..........

NO!!! I am stating the reality. You can't see the complexity of reality because you look at the wrong end of the horse. Reality looks pretty soluble when you reduce it to definitions, mathematics, and taxonomies. But the reality is you can't predict either the shape of the next cloud or what any individual might see in it. This is reality. Animals don't go extinct because they can't adapt or aren't fit; they go extinct because every one died and they each died at different times for different reasons. This extinction will typically be sudden as well because all change in life is sudden and a manifestation of consciousness. It is not created by a biologist counting "rabbits" because there is no such thing as "rabbits".
 
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tas8831

Well-Known Member
Yes. This is a very interesting field showing specific cases where biologists were completely wrong.
I would ask for examples, but I know that you are completely ignorant of the field and are 100% incapable of understanding what evidence is, much less providing any.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
One of our assumptions is that animals don't even have consciousness
Although this might depend on how you define "smart", I think it's safe to say that we are quite intelligent and likely the most intelligent of species currently on this planet.

As I have mentioned, clad cannot even keep his own nonsense straight - in an earlier post, he declared that humans are the only animals that can think...
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I would ask for examples, but I know that you are completely ignorant of the field and are 100% incapable of understanding what evidence is, much less providing any.
He does not understand evidence, but he seems to understand he would quickly lose an argument if he tried to use it. The Ostrich Defense kicks in.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
I would ask for examples, but I know that you are completely ignorant of the field and are 100% incapable of understanding what evidence is, much less providing any.

I don't follow this stuff when they're right, why would I follow their errors.

There was some orchid they had completely misidentified.
As I have mentioned, clad cannot even keep his own nonsense straight - in an earlier post, he declared that humans are the only animals that can think...

Yes! "Thought" is the comparison of sensory input to beliefs. No other animal nor ancient man had beliefs so none of them think.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I don't follow this stuff when they're right, why would I follow their errors.

There was some orchid they had completely misidentified.


Yes! "Thought" is the comparison of sensory input to beliefs. No other animal nor ancient man had beliefs so none of them think.
Oh noes!!! Scientists made an error once, therefore they are always wrong:confused:

Scientists make errors at times. Unlike peddlers of woo woo they want to be corrected if wrong and admit it.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Of course it doesn't disprove anything. At a glance it seems to provide support for the concept of "evolution". I believe that support is actually ephemeral, perspective based, and largely unreal. it provides lots of important insight into change in species but it does a very poor job of showing the cause of any change,. It merely highlights change and patterns of change.



That is unrelated to what I was talking about.

I was merely saying that species suddenly adapt to changes in their niche. All change in life in all ways is sudden. However niches can change almost glacially since a single parameter of a niche can cause massive population change. Small changes in environment can allow large changes in populations.



NO!!! I am stating the reality. You can't see the complexity of reality because you look at the wrong end of the horse. Reality looks pretty soluble when you reduce it to definitions, mathematics, and taxonomies. But the reality is you can't predict either the shape of the next cloud or what any individual might see in it. This is reality. Animals don't go extinct because they can't adapt or aren't fit; they go extinct because every one died and they each died at different times for different reasons. This extinction will typically be sudden as well because all change in life is sudden and a manifestation of consciousness. It is not created by a biologist counting "rabbits" because there is no such thing as "rabbits".
Human logic says...….
if animals did not procreate, have sex...if sex was not allowed, where is the continuance of life or any species?

Therefore in biology each species owns an age for the body to exist and for the body to die....complete and known and identified existence.

We do not exist.

Now science tries to explain that relative idea in consciousness by trying to make claims such as just a hologram or just a physical manifestation, not really physical without actually using correct and structured thinking.

Reasoning of the Christ conscious philosophy as a taught methodology of a mind irradiated and was losing its conscious self precepts of being rational, logical and also idealized human reasoning.

Knowing it was occurring, in conditions of UFO mass heavy metal irradiation of life that took our minds into the Dark Ages...as the real fact of human history.

Our behaviours totally irrational.

Now males tried to warn us by writing information in a format to explain prophetic reasoning so that it would force a human to think, pose questions, to argue, and to research for meaning....for that very fact.

What I learnt as a spiritual conscious Teacher/reasoner as I was taught, as the student.

So I tried to never apply my own egotism in my natural research of spiritual conditions and reasoned for my own single self. Which is not an easy achievement, seeing we are taught and coerced everyday that if you do not concede to the norm, being coercion itself then you are unintelligent. Whereas coercion is a controlled mechanism as imposed for unreasonable group male conclusions, that if owner of an incorrect model, would then eventually destroy our life.

For not being honest and rational...which is what science says it bases its own rationality upon, being as truthful as it can be.

So I realized by study what had occurred a long time ago....and then why UFO radiation mass, still arriving due to star system irradiation heating...allowed us to lose our rational consciousness.

Rationally you needed to say to a human, no sex, we age, then we all die.

No humans left living on Earth...if you could stop animals from procreating, no animals either on Earth. So rationally we do not exist.

Hence imposing states to our life when we really do not exist, our 2 first human parents died...and only human sex allowed a baby to own a chosen cyclic event of adult, sex, and baby.

That situation is not some owner of a string theory.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh noes!!! Scientists made an error once, therefore they are always wrong:confused:

Scientists make errors at times. Unlike peddlers of woo woo they want to be corrected if wrong and admit it.
Oh no! Say it isn't so. Over a million described species and they got the identity wrong on one. Shameful!

All right everybody, we are calling it quits. No more science. Couldn't possibly carry on with a 99.9999% success rate in identification of species.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Oh no! Say it isn't so. Over a million described species and they got the identity wrong on one. Shameful!

All right everybody, we are calling it quits. No more science. Couldn't possibly carry on with a 99.9999% success rate in identification of species.
If you are talking about a communicated male science study in natural life of every bio life form first as science and medical science.

Encoded all that advice and data in a computer. Then you wanted contact with the bio Nature and a string history....and then built a program based on mind contact and mind coercion, which placed a world programming satellite to a world community as a program yourself.

You then would have contacted your own program.....and as natural life was already in an irradiation condition....from machine owned UFO radiation history....then of course when you pressed the buttons on your computer satellite pulsed studies you would affect the brain and body conditions of all the lives you attacked.

And yet a male with his machines, if he never built them, would not own nor believe what sort of incorrect male human reasoning you use today without informing the public what you are really talking about as the egotist that you all are.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Of course it doesn't disprove anything. At a glance it seems to provide support for the concept of "evolution".

"at a glance"????????

Years and years of detailed study of fully sequenced genomes is hardly "at a glance". :rolleyes:

All change in life in all ways is sudden.


"Sudden" as in, within a generation or two, or "sudden" as in, over the course of a few million years instead a few dozen million? And what kind of "change" are you talking about? The change to go from a Homo Erectus to a Homo sapiens, or the "change" to go from some mammalian rodent to a Homo Sapiens?

When talking about geological time, scale kind of matters.


NO!!! I am stating the reality. You can't see the complexity of reality because you look at the wrong end of the horse

Nobody denies that reality, especially ecological balance, is complex.


Reality looks pretty soluble when you reduce it to definitions, mathematics, and taxonomies. But the reality is you can't predict either the shape of the next cloud or what any individual might see in it.

So I guess it's a good thing then that the shape of the next cloud or what an individual might see in it, is irrelevant to the subject of biological evolution and history.


Animals don't go extinct because they can't adapt or aren't fit; they go extinct because every one died and they each died at different times for different reasons.

:rolleyes:

"when a person is dead, it's because he died".

uhu. Great explanation you got there.

This extinction will typically be sudden as well because all change in life is sudden

Extinction is not a change in life. It's the ending of life of a species.

and a manifestation of consciousness

No. That makes no sense.
There's no "manifestation of consciousness" when an asteroid hits and takes out all members of species Y.


It is not created by a biologist counting "rabbits" because there is no such thing as "rabbits".

yet everybody knows what animal you are referring to when using that word.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
As a spiritual self I believe in evolution for memory and recording details that it occurred.

But to evolve, first you have to have encoded and owned and lived the higher state...to have lost it...to then regain it by evolution status itself.

Why evolution is a notified important self taught realization as a human.

Now I know that science of the study of phenomena has enough human evidence to release to the general public and occult science, being science that it is wrong.

For occult study was imposed upon the state science not because of the occult but because science caused the occult, which you seemingly take no care in realization of. The meaning for study itself....for proof.

Spiritually the main population on Earth know, I came from the eternal spirit via our 2 human parents, their recorded MEMORY says so...and human little children in a reincarnation proof, proved it....so proof is everywhere.

Science was wrong, science conjured the OCCULT, so to conclude its own evidence, it awoke the presence of evil to know itself, when previously it was not aware.

A human male brotherhood God group did that circumstance their own selves...they awoke the spirit that had been destroyed....as a story about where did we come from, and how science proved that we came from a spiritual body that had been destroyed, enabling evil spirits in a held constant to manifest.

And so they did....and to a spiritual human that was the unkindest and nastiest act that the God science human males ever did.

For it was in fact asleep to its own demise.

Now if you NASA and the Russian phenomena sciences and Rome, after all the years of non stop occult proof want to argue about being irrational, the scientist is that person in self ownership, the Destroyer.

And it has a spiritual human reason for its meaning, its status, its choice and its reasoning....why brother versus brother, holy order versus evil order has existed expressed in natural life on Earth.

Now anyone with a rational use of a brain would say, I can talk non stop about where I came from, without it owning any meaning whatsoever to my life today.

I have to accept that I am just a human and that I only own my life as that human....no matter what other information exists....I only exist in my spiritual human life and form, as that human and with my own choice...to be rational and loving or to own my own self destruction.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
You're telling me there is such a thing as "survival of the fittest" and then using a circular argument to show it.
You clearly ignored the 2 links to actual definitions of the phrase I have provided you, so maybe a simple dictionary definition will help?

survival of the fittest
phrase of survival

  1. BIOLOGY
    the continued existence of organisms which are best adapted to their environment, with the extinction of others, as a concept in the Darwinian theory of evolution.

Continued misapplication/misrepresentation by you will be considered plain old lies, which Jesus frowns upon.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
I don't follow this stuff when they're right, why would I follow their errors.
The following are evidence for gradual evolution:

Elephants. Stoats. Oak trees.

There was some orchid they had completely misidentified.
Say it isn't so!
Yes! "Thought" is the comparison of sensory input to beliefs.
No it isn't:

thought1
/THôt/
noun
  1. an idea or opinion produced by thinking, or occurring suddenly in the mind.

You don't get to 'win' by using idiosyncratic definitions.

In fact, you lose.
No other animal nor ancient man had beliefs so none of them think.

Mere assertion. Dismissed as fever-dream nonsense.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
"at a glance"????????

Years and years of detailed study of fully sequenced genomes is hardly "at a glance". :rolleyes:




"Sudden" as in, within a generation or two, or "sudden" as in, over the course of a few million years instead a few dozen million? And what kind of "change" are you talking about? The change to go from a Homo Erectus to a Homo sapiens, or the "change" to go from some mammalian rodent to a Homo Sapiens?

When talking about geological time, scale kind of matters.




Nobody denies that reality, especially ecological balance, is complex.




So I guess it's a good thing then that the shape of the next cloud or what an individual might see in it, is irrelevant to the subject of biological evolution and history.




:rolleyes:

"when a person is dead, it's because he died".

uhu. Great explanation you got there.



Extinction is not a change in life. It's the ending of life of a species.



No. That makes no sense.
There's no "manifestation of consciousness" when an asteroid hits and takes out all members of species Y.




yet everybody knows what animal you are referring to when using that word.
Frustrating and infuriating, isn't it? Like arguing with a child with ADHD.
 
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