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The Believabliltiy of Evolution

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I never said one way or the other regarding Genesis being the answer. I am simply asserting that evolution is most assuredly not the answer either. At least we don't have any scientific proof it is the answer, since, as you said, we do not have enough time to observe one genus becoming another. The best we can do is to infer it, and that is not true science. That is why evolution is a theory. Do have any idea on how many scientific theories have been later proven wrong?

Last claim first, very very few scientific theories have been shown to be wrong. Your claim tells us that you do not understand what a scientific theory is in the first place.

And by almost any standard evolution has been "proved". Scientists do not use the term "scientific proof" because nothing is proven in the sciences. But if you accept gravity as proven then by the same standard you should accept evolution as proven.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I can understand how an intelligent individual may have problems with the creation account in Genesis. What I don't understand is how that same intelligent individual has no problem whatsoever believing everything we see in the world somehow came from the so-called primordial soup.

Not only must a particular life form spontaneously arise, but the other organisms upon which it depends must have arisen in lock step. And what are the odds of the flora arising in the required sequence as that of the fauna which depends on that flora? That is more believable than Genesis?

Science is based on observation. Who has ever seen one genus becoming another? Nobody! It's purely inference which is only slightly better than guessing. It is a model that admittedly could be said to fit with some observed phenomena, but there is perhaps a better model that nobody has thought of yet. A model is a model. It is not necessarily a reality.

If one does not believe Genesis it seems it would be better to just say, "I don't know how we all got here."

I'm not sure I agree! Don't you find this sort of thing could have happened mechanistically? Four Dimensional Genome - creation.com
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What I don't understand is how that same intelligent individual has no problem whatsoever believing everything we see in the world somehow came from the so-called primordial soup.

Life exists. That's a fact. I agree that its existence seems unlikely, but it's here, so we need to get past that.

I can only think of two sources for life - an intelligent designer (creationism) and naturalistic processes (abiogenesis and biological evolution). Unless you can come up with a third, those are our choices, and they must be considered simultaneously. To look at just one - the naturalistic processes - and say that it seems unlikely to you is an incomplete assessment. The alternative, a god, is less likely.

In fact, I can't conceive of anything less likely to exist undesigned and uncreated than a god, and it is a logical error to posit one to account for the complexity of living cells.

So pick one of the two apparently unlikely alternatives. Looking at just one and calling it unlikely is simply an inadequate assessment.

what are the odds of the flora arising in the required sequence as that of the fauna which depends on that flora?

There is no required sequence apart from every living thing requiring a supply of energy already existing for it exist later. The sun was the first such source. Later, other living things were food as well.

You're making this too difficult. The things that happened were things that were possible at the time they happened.

Who has ever seen one genus becoming another?

Who has ever seen a planet form? Nobody, yet we're certain that they do all of the time. It's a common error to think that we need to observe the past to know about it. We don't. We only need observe the present. If I see a man lying in a casket at a funeral, I can make a number of reliable statements about the past without having witnessed them then - just the evidence present now.

I can be sure that this person was once conceived, gestated in a womb, was born, drew a first breath, took a first bite, grew larger and older while living some kind of a life, then died. We don't need to witness any of those event to know that they occurred.

It's purely inference which is only slightly better than guessing.

The theory of evolution is confirmed, settled science. There is no realistic possibility that it is wrong. We have so much evidence in support of that theory that if a future finding ever falsified it, one would be forced to conclude that a super-powerful and deceptive agent went to great lengths to make man think that evolution as we understand it had occurred, including planting fossils of creatures that never lived such that older and more primitive appearing forms appear in the deepest strata, carefully setting the ratio of radioisotopes to fool man regarding dates, creating all of those nested hierarchies including inserting ERVs into genomes as part of the great deception, scattering the ring species to appear that they had evolved, and the like.

I can conceive of no other explanation for so much evidence supporting a false theory The evidence in support of the theory doesn't go away if it is overturned tomorrow.It merely needs to be reinterpreted in the light of the falsifying discovery.
If you think that the theory of evolution is wrong, this is all you're left with, not the Genesis account or any other creation myth.

If one does not believe Genesis it seems it would be better to just say, "I don't know how we all got here."

Why would one believe the Genesis account? It is already ruled out by the data supporting the theory of evolution, as is the god of that holy book. Would Jehovah, who we are told wants to be known, loved, trusted, believed, and worshiped, perpetuate such a massive fraud? No. If there is a god behind all of this, it's the trickster god described above

If the odds of one thing happening are pretty low, I can't imagine what thousands would would do to those odds.

This is another common creationist fallacy, a variation of Hoyle's fallacy. Once again, you must consider all of the relevant facts simultaneously. When you do, you realize that everything that happens is incredibly unlikely. What are the odds that you would have the the precise Social Security Number that you have, the phone number you have, your present home address, your car license plate, and precisely the bills in your wallet with those serial numbers on the bills in your billfold orientated and ordered in your wallet just as they are now.

Each is infinitesimal, and having them appear all together in the same person is mind-bogglingly unlikely. Yet nobody is surprised that it did. Everything that happens is unlikely, so pointing at something and calling it unlikely isn't really much of an argument if you intend to substitute something equally unlikely for it, which is just about everything..

What has not been observed, and what Genesis denies, is a frog evolving into a dog or whatever.

That would be a falsifying finding were it ever observed. The theory predicts that it will never be observed.

Genesis isn't relevant any more. We know that it is wrong. Believers who can face that have begun calling it a metaphor, or allegory, although I think that they're wrong as well. Those who cannot are literalists, and have an impossible task trying to deny reality to others not willing to believe by faith.

I say that Genesis is not a metaphor or allegory, since writers of those literary devices always know what their symbols stand in for. An allegory is a story in which characters or events stand in for historical characters or events. The author has something specific in mind for which fictional elements are substituted one-for-one for historical ones known to the author of the allegory, Consider Gulliver's Travels, a political allegory.

"One clear example of Swift's use of political allegory is the Rope Dancers, who are Lilliputians seeking employment in the government, All candidates are asked to dance on the rope and whoever jumps the highest without falling is offered a high office . Very often the current ministers are asked to dance to show their skills . For instance, Flimnap, the treasurer, is required to dance on a tight rope to show his superiority to others in this respect.

"This jumping game may sound innocent to the children, however, politically its significance is far from innocent. Obviously, Swift makes a satire on the way in which political offices were distributed among the candidates by George I. Flimnap stands for Sir Robert Walpole the prime minister of England. Dancing on a tight rope symbolizes Walpole's skill in parliamentary tactics and political intrigues.

The Genesis creation story is nothing like that. It's simply an wrong story. The days of creation aren't intended to stand in for what really happened over more than 13 billion years, a number unknown to the Bible writers. Creating Eve from a rib is not a allegory for evolution, which was also unknown to the Bible writers.

I'll give you your billions and more, it still doesn't prove evolution.

Evolution is a proven fact. It can be observed.

Furthermore, evolution theory is confirmed. As I noted above, if you want to replace it, it will need to be with something even less likely - the trickster superpower.

It is still a theory with no more intrinsic truth than Genesis.

The sine qua non of a correct idea is that it works - that it can be used to accurately predict outcomes. This is true even in trivial applications, such as having a correct phone number. We can accurately predict that if we call that number, a particular phone will ring and a particular person will likely answer. If the number works and allows you to speak with an intended target, it was a correct number - a correct idea.

We know that the mathematics and astronomy that predicts eclipses is correct because it can account for past eclipses and predict future ones.

Wrong ideas cannot do that. Astrology is one such wrong idea, and it predicts nothing accurately - certainly not eclipses. This is the sine qua non of a wrong idea. It fails at this level.

The theory of evolution has unified mountains of data from a multitude of sources, accurately made predictions about what can and cannot be found in nature, provides a rational mechanism for explaining the observable fact of evolution consistent with the known actions of nature, accounts for both the commonality of all life as well as biodiversity, and has had practical applications that have improved the human condition in areas like medicine and agriculture.That makes it correct.

By contrast, creationism can do none of that. It is a sterile idea that can be used for nothing except to lure people away from scholarship.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
We however living on a O circular body, rotating around the mass of a Sun own a count of 365 in reality.

We do not on Earth own the Universe, the Universe however owns the presence of Earth.

What science is trying to claim is that it can mass calculate the value of GOD O the stone as a massed body by numbering it....which is a ludicrous statement, for a number does not equal what the body represents in its nature.

If a male said that Earth owned a numbering huge evaluation as a string, he would be wanting to unroll that ball of string into the mass that he claims owns that numbering effect, the body of the sun.

And to achieve that causation he would have to expand and heat up cold space, as if he is extending the sun to engulf Earth.
Sorry, but you are making absolutely zero sense.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I won't say you are wrong, but it does mean that the sequence of events would be even more unlikely than just one ancestor being the source of life. All those thousands of creatures would have to arise by chance mutations in a perfectly precise order in both time and result. If the odds of one thing happening are pretty low, I can't imagine what thousands would would do to those odds.
You're assuming evolution had an end goal and that everything had to occur in some precise order for that end goal to unfold.

That's not how it works.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
I never said one way or the other regarding Genesis being the answer. I am simply asserting that evolution is most assuredly not the answer either. At least we don't have any scientific proof it is the answer, since, as you said, we do not have enough time to observe one genus becoming another. The best we can do is to infer it, and that is not true science. That is why evolution is a theory.
It seems you have no idea of how science works or what a scientific theory is. Science never proves anything to be right (only some things to be wrong, as genesis for example). No scientist claims that the ToE is 100% correct. It is just that no one has proven it to be wrong - despite trying hard for 150 years. So, the ToE is the best model we have today, supported by tons of evidence and no competing hypothesis in sight. It is most likely right.
Do have any idea on how many scientific theories have been later proven wrong?
Name one scientific theory that has been proven wrong in the last 100 years.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I never said one way or the other regarding Genesis being the answer. I am simply asserting that evolution is most assuredly not the answer either. At least we don't have any scientific proof it is the answer, since, as you said, we do not have enough time to observe one genus becoming another. The best we can do is to infer it, and that is not true science. That is why evolution is a theory. Do have any idea on how many scientific theories have been later proven wrong?
Science does not deal in proof, so the absence of proof is quite irrelevant. Science deals in explanatory and predictive models, based on observational evidence. Inference is a part of true science, so you are wrong there, too. (There is little excuse for you to be still making these errors about science. These points have been explained to you many times in previous threads. You seem to be just deliberately choosing to ignore them.)

Certainly there are theories that have been shown to be wrong, for example the phlogiston theory or the plum pudding model of the atom. However, more commonly, they are shown to be just poor models and replaced, at least for the relevant purposes, by better ones. An example in this category would be the Rutherford-Bohr model of the atom, or even Newtonian mechanics.

Evolution is a theory that fits a vast number of observations, is corroborated by several independent fields of science, and makes successful predictions so regularly that we don't even realise any more when we invoke its predictions. For example, we do not look for rabbit fossils in the Cambrian.

Equally important, there is no rival explanatory and predictive theory to account for the observations. So we use evolution for now, just as we use quantum theory, or any other theory of science, for now, until something with superior explanatory power comes along, if it ever does.

What is for sure is that "God did it" has zero explanatory or predictive power and as such is not capable, in any, way of being part of a theory of science.
 

Earthtank

Active Member
It is just that no one has proven it to be wrong - despite trying hard for 150 years.

I think the reason for this was best explained by Karl Popper when he said "There were no human witnesses to the origin of the Universe, the origin of life or the origin of a single living thing. These were unique, unrepeatable events of the past that cannot be observed in nature or repeated in the laboratory. Thus neither creation nor evolution qualifies as a scientific theory and each is equally religious. As the scientific philosopher Sir Karl Popper has stated, evolution is not a testable scientific theory but a metaphysical research program." Not testable meaning it can't be falsified, if something can't be falsified its not scientific. I have been saying this for years but never had knew the correct way to say it. This is one of the reason i never believed in abiogensis nor evolution. Thank you, Karl Popper.
 

McBell

Unbound
I think the reason for this was best explained by Karl Popper when he said "There were no human witnesses to the origin of the Universe, the origin of life or the origin of a single living thing. These were unique, unrepeatable events of the past that cannot be observed in nature or repeated in the laboratory. Thus neither creation nor evolution qualifies as a scientific theory and each is equally religious. As the scientific philosopher Sir Karl Popper has stated, evolution is not a testable scientific theory but a metaphysical research program." Not testable meaning it can't be falsified, if something can't be falsified its not scientific. I have been saying this for years but never had knew the correct way to say it. This is one of the reason i never believed in abiogensis nor evolution. Thank you, Karl Popper.
The biggest problem I have with philosophy is the fact that it can be used to support whatever you want.
With the same amount of validity.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I think the reason for this was best explained by Karl Popper when he said "There were no human witnesses to the origin of the Universe, the origin of life or the origin of a single living thing. These were unique, unrepeatable events of the past that cannot be observed in nature or repeated in the laboratory. Thus neither creation nor evolution qualifies as a scientific theory and each is equally religious. As the scientific philosopher Sir Karl Popper has stated, evolution is not a testable scientific theory but a metaphysical research program." Not testable meaning it can't be falsified, if something can't be falsified its not scientific. I have been saying this for years but never had knew the correct way to say it. This is one of the reason i never believed in abiogensis nor evolution. Thank you, Karl Popper.
This is what Popper said at one point in his career. However he later acknowledged he was mistaken and that evolution was in fact a perfectly good scientific theory, saying: "I have changed my mind about the testability and logical status of the theory of natural selection; and I am glad to have an opportunity to make a recantation".

Details here: Popper on evolution | ScienceBlogs
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
And where did that life arise from?what did it arise from? how did it "become"?
Nobody has the answers to this question (abiogenesis) yet.

But as others have pointed out, evolution is not about abiogenesis. Evolution is about how, once you have life that reproduces by handing on its traits to the next generation, you expect to get different species arising over time.
 

Earthtank

Active Member
This is what Popper said at one point in his career. However he later acknowledged he was mistaken and that evolution was in fact a perfectly good scientific theory, saying: "I have changed my mind about the testability and logical status of the theory of natural selection; and I am glad to have an opportunity to make a recantation".

Details here: Popper on evolution | ScienceBlogs

Then, why should i believe what he said later and dismiss his earlier quote? What makes one more valid than the other? In any case, i still hold my current position in regards to evolution As i have stated before, i always felt the way Karl Popper explain but was never able to put in words the way he did.
 

Earthtank

Active Member
The biggest problem I have with philosophy is the fact that it can be used to support whatever you want.
With the same amount of validity.

While i think you are saying this in a way to disagree with the quote i used, i do however, agree with you in regards to philosophy being used in a way to make the invalid, valid.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I think the reason for this was best explained by Karl Popper when he said "There were no human witnesses to the origin of the Universe, the origin of life or the origin of a single living thing. These were unique, unrepeatable events of the past that cannot be observed in nature or repeated in the laboratory. Thus neither creation nor evolution qualifies as a scientific theory and each is equally religious. As the scientific philosopher Sir Karl Popper has stated, evolution is not a testable scientific theory but a metaphysical research program." Not testable meaning it can't be falsified, if something can't be falsified its not scientific. I have been saying this for years but never had knew the correct way to say it. This is one of the reason i never believed in abiogensis nor evolution. Thank you, Karl Popper.

You know, we all are inclined to hope for some
simple certainty. A dead sure answer. Is there
a God? If he showed up and said, yeah, its me,
well, no more question!

Now as for your construct above, it would be well
for you to do more than a quick cut n paste.

Read the rest of it.

What Did Karl Popper Really Say About Evolution? | National Center for Science Education


You would learn that you have falsified the quote, he nowhere
says this...Sir Karl Popper has stated, "evolution is not a testable scientific theory but a metaphysical research program"

There are some other things to learn by doing a bit of diligence
and reading the article.

There are a couple of additional things to consider before
being too pleased with your slam dunk.

One scientist's opinion does not Truth make. Surely you'd
be one of the first to agree to that.

Second, this..., the origin of life or the origin of a single living thing.

Quite true, but two important things to consider on that, before being
too pleased with this slam dunk.

First, there are a great many things that have not been observed,
but are demonstrably true, have taken place. Nobody saw an asteroid
hit the moon, but the craters are there.

The other is: the Theory of Evolution is precisely the same, no matter
how life originated. Maybe god went poof-o, maybe lightning hit
a mud puddle.

The ORIGIN OF LIFE IS IRRELEVANT TO THE THEORY OF
EVOLUTION.

A lot of people would like to disprove evolution. I would too.
Why? I would get the Nobel, maybe be the one who made the
greatest scientific discovery of all time.

Evolution has not been disproved. Sorry-ah.

Try again, next time with some data.

oh one more.
Evolution is not something to "believe in'.
It is like calculus that way.
It is something to understand, which
you definitely do not;
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Then, why should i believe what he said later and dismiss his earlier quote? What makes one more valid than the other? In any case, i still hold my current position in regards to evolution As i have stated before, i always felt the way Karl Popper explain but was never able to put in words the way he did.

What earlier quote? The one you misquoted?

A misquote is definitely not valid.

I have come to the conclusion that Darwinism is not a testable scientific theory, but a metaphysical research programme—a possible framework for testable scientific theories. [Popper, 1976, p. 168]

It is clear that here Darwinism means natural selection, not evolution. Popper states this explicitly earlier in the same work:

. . . because I intend to argue that the theory of natural selection is not a testable scientific theory, but a metaphysical research programme; . . . [Popper, 1976, p. 151]
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Then, why should i believe what he said later and dismiss his earlier quote? What makes one more valid than the other? In any case, i still hold my current position in regards to evolution As i have stated before, i always felt the way Karl Popper explain but was never able to put in words the way he did.
Because that was the position Popper came to after thinking about it properly. He realised he had made an error.

It is dishonest of you to quote Popper as an authority for a view he came to see as erroneous. At the very least you ought to point out the earlier view is one he later retracted.
 
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