The Believabliltiy of Evolution

[rrobs]

I am Christian and accept the findings of science. That is not an example of anti-religious fundamentalism.

I guess you don't believe in the unscientific idea of resurrection. Isn't the resurrection of your body pretty central to the doctrine?

 

[rrobs]

Why do creationists insist on using straw man arguments. If you do not want to see than stop using straw man arguments. I was correct in applying it.

I expect you to have a grounded, basic understanding of what you are attacking. Clearly that is not the case. How can you know if you are right if you do not even understand what you are talking about? And all I have seen from you on your claims about the theory have been wrong.

You can reword your straw man argument all you like, but it is still a straw man and does not reflect anything related to the scientific theory of evolution. The theory does not claim that frogs will turn into dogs.

OK, tell me all about evolution. I defer to your knowledge on the subject.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

As I've said many times here, Genesis does allow for evolution within a genus. There are many species within the canis genus and they continue to evolve and add new species, but they all all still in the canis genus.

No it doesn't.

Not if my "opinion" aligns with the scripture. The correct appellation for that would be "truth."

You just showed me that is not the case. The only reason that you re-interpret (pull out of thin air) the scripture is to get it to line up with evidence that you cannot cast away with the usual hand waving.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I guess you don't believe in the unscientific idea of resurrection. Isn't the resurrection of your body pretty central to the doctrine?

Let's turn this into a thread about me, since your arguments fail at every turn. I didn't see this coming. Yeah I did.

 

[rrobs]

The theory does not claim that frogs will turn into dogs.

You are taking me way too literal. Yes I know a frog does not spontaneously turn into a dog. I did take a course in evolution while attending college, albeit about 1,000 years ago . At least it was enough to know that they don't claim magic.

Maybe you should tell me exactly what you believe about evolution. So far, you've just poo-pood my ideas, which leaves me little upon which to formulate a satisfactory reply.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

OK, tell me all about evolution. I defer to your knowledge on the subject.

So you admit that you do not know or understand the theory that you claim is all made up and not true. How refreshing.

Do you really think that I believe that you are not going to ignore facts this time after having ignored countless pedagogical efforts by so many others on this forum? This is just your way of shutting out reality and an attempt to shut down the facts of your straw man that I and others have pointed out. You know that no one has the time and this forums format would not allow the depth needed to teach a closed mind the science. So you feel safe that I will decline. But that does not eliminate the fact that you are operating on logical fallacies, your arguments are flawed and without merit.

I am not declining. I just choose to educate you one post at a time. You post your misconceptions and I and others will point them out, correct them and you just read and learn as we go.

 

[cladking]

And the rest of us are free to recognize unsupported belief and ignore it without further consideration.

Your ignoring logic and evidence is not the same as "unsupported".

The only thing that has never been supported in this entire thread is the belief that species change by "survival of the fittest" over long periods of time. Every single source linked by believers in evolution shows sudden change just as all observation shows. There is no gradual evolution but rather mutation and punctuated equilibrium. No change in species is gradual and no change in species is caused by "survival of the fittest". This is mere claptrap sponsored by 19th century scientists who wanted to believe in the superiority of some individuals but the reality is as the Bible and our founding fathers said which is we are all created equal, different, but equal.

My argument is circular reasoning but is supported by evidence and logic and your argument is circular reasoning and supported only be the assumptions of 19th century scientists and creative interpretation of "experiment".

 

[rrobs]

No it doesn't.

No it doesn't what?

You just showed me that is not the case. The only reason that you re-interpret (pull out of thin air) the scripture is to get it to line up with evidence that you cannot cast away with the usual hand waving.

OK...you're a brother...we're both Christians. Obviously you think I'm somehow out of alignment with the truth. Now Jesus usually corrected Peter's mistakes with the scriptures. That is the loving thing to do.

So please be specific and tell me how to get back into the good graces of God...how to rid myself of scriptural ideas. I'm a brother asking for help. What will you do?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

You are taking me way too literal. Yes I know a frog does not spontaneously turn into a dog. I did take a course in evolution while attending college, albeit about 1,000 years ago . At least it was enough to know that they don't claim magic.

Isn't everything supposed to be interpreted literally? Isn't that the creationist line of reasoning to deify allegory as literal? If you think what you post is not understood as you post it, then perhaps it is on you to properly word what you post.

Maybe you should tell me exactly what you believe about evolution. So far, you've just poo-pood my ideas, which leaves me little upon which to formulate a satisfactory reply.

I don't believe anything about evolution. It is science and not a belief system.

Why is it that no creationist ever posts the theory as presented by science and then start their arguments from there?

Why is it that you can accept the theory of gravity as a scientific theory, but for the most well-supported theory in science you do everything you can to cast it as a belief system and not as the science that it is?

Is it all that creationists accept everything on a belief basis without understanding or trying to understand anything?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

No it doesn't what?



OK...you're a brother...we're both Christians. Obviously you think I'm somehow out of alignment with the truth. Now Jesus usually corrected Peter's mistakes with the scriptures. That is the loving thing to do.

So please be specific and tell me how to get back into the good graces of God...how to rid myself of scriptural ideas. I'm a brother asking for help. What will you do?

Is it your opinion that a Christian should just swallow whole anything another Christian says without question? If a Christian says it, then it must be accepted as truth even if what they say has no merit in logic, reasoning or evidence? That does not sound like a good policy at all, given that there are so many Christians and all have so many different opinions.

You made claims about science. Please do not try to divert from defending those claims on my account.

 

[rrobs]

So you admit that you do not know or understand the theory that you claim is all made up and not true. How refreshing.

Do you really think that I believe that you are not going to ignore facts this time after having ignored countless pedagogical efforts by so many others on this forum? This is just your way of shutting out reality and an attempt to shut down the facts of your straw man that I and others have pointed out. You know that no one has the time and this forums format would not allow the depth needed to teach a closed mind the science. So you feel safe that I will decline. But that does not eliminate the fact that you are operating on logical fallacies, your arguments are flawed and without merit.

I am not declining. I just choose to educate you one post at a time. You post your misconceptions and I and others will point them out, correct them and you just read and learn as we go.

Any ideas on the usage of "genus" in the Septuagint? My argument is that the word is there and that it has some significance. I told you what I thought that significance is. It is clear you don't agree, but I'd like to get your take on the significance of the word "genus" in Genesis. What do you think it indicates?

Also, what do you take the idea of "seed" to mean in the first chapter of Genesis?

I don't expect an instant answer unless you've already done the research on those words. After all, the very foundation of the scientific method is observation, so we must first observe what the scriptures say before making a judgment as to what they say.

 

[rrobs]

I don't believe anything about evolution. It is science and not a belief system.

So science does not require belief? I'm pretty sure every thought we have is ultimately based on belief. The science of Cognitive Psychology says that. Since it's science then you must accept it.

Why is it that no creationist ever posts the theory as presented by science and then start their arguments from there?

I don't know.

Why is it that you can accept the theory of gravity as a scientific theory, but for the most well-supported theory in science you do everything you can to cast it as a belief system and not as the science that it is?

Most well supported theory? That's cast in stone, or an opinion? Where would I find that in the scientific journals?

Is it all that creationists accept everything on a belief basis without understanding or trying to understand anything?

How in God's name do you know what I or anybody else is or is not trying to understand?

 

[rrobs]

Let's turn this into a thread about me, since your arguments fail at every turn. I didn't see this coming. Yeah I did.

My arguments fail at every turn? What is failed about my pointing out the usages of the words "seed" and "genus" in Genesis? How do you think God uses those words?

 

[rrobs]

Is it your opinion that a Christian should just swallow whole anything another Christian says without question? If a Christian says it, then it must be accepted as truth even if what they say has no merit in logic, reasoning or evidence? That does not sound like a good policy at all, given that there are so many Christians and all have so many different opinions.

I'm pretty sure all my scriptural arguments have come straight from the scriptures. I don't recall quoting the Pope, Martin Luther, or even Billy Graham. Shouldn't that answer your question?

Interestingly enough, I don't think you'd mind one bit if I swallowed what you, another Christian, says without question.

You made claims about science. Please do not try to divert from defending those claims on my account.

OK...I understand you suggest I should not try to divert from defending those claims on your account? Is that your only council to put me back on track with God? Seems like there ought to be more.

 

[Bear Wild]

At least you're open to the possibility of a dog staying as a dog for hundreds of thousands of generations. At least that's they way I understand you saying, "may, or may not."

Yes, horseshoe crabs have maintained a consistent genetic phenotype for a very long period of time. This may be in part due to a more stable habitat in which they are well adapted.

 

[Audie]

Well, in a free country I guess you can believe what you like.

I was like totally whatevs to all that quite a while back.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes, and they burned Christians at the stake.

They were not doing that in 1950s America. But people like me? Here we were tortured, we were sterilized, we were lobotomized, we were criminalized.
Black people weren't even allowed in many communities. They weren't legally guaranteed the right to vote. They couldn't even attend the same schools.
Women who didn't conform? They too were tortured, sterilized, lobotomized, and thrown in into psych wards (which were hardly different than dungeons then).
And do you know who killed more Christians than anyone way back when that was common in Western society? Other Christians.

there are many here in America that would love to see the burning resume.

If anyone, it's the hardcore Bible thumpers who'd love to go back to burning witches and queers.

Does LGTBQ have it any worse than that?

So, because you just cannot counter that I pointed out we are far more free without Christianity so strongly in control, you only real defense is to grasp at straws where sectarian conflicts rage on and dictators rule?

You are simply pointing out the depraved and violent nature of people, not all, but enough to make things as bad as you've described. That is precisely why we need to get back to loving God and then loving our neighbor as the scriptures exhort.

Jehovah's scripture says thou shalt not suffer a witch to live, to kill homosexuals and their blood in on their hand, kill apostates, kill rebellious kids, kill women who aren't virgins on their wedding night, permits slavery, and prophets who are such terrible people the lies one told got entire cities in trouble in Jehovah and another one had kids mauled to death with a bear because they called him baldy.

However, regarding my (and all Christians) innocence, you are wrong. Read Ephesians to see our state before God. Suffice it to say, we are His prized treasures. It says we are His creation, created in righteousness and true holiness. The epistle of 1 John declares that we are cleansed from all unrighteousness. That's the whole point of what Jesus did for us.

Equal before the Lord doesn't mean equal to. Such as, ideally, we are all equal before the law, but that does not mean we are equal to the law and we are still subject to penalties if we are found to have broken the law.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Today we can't challenge the Anti-Americam/Socialism dialogue too much without being branded a white supremacists.

It is not illegal to that. There are no laws against it. There is no campaign to report people who do.
You have no idea what it was like if you think today is comparable.

All those countries are filled with people, so to some degree or another, there is definitely strife and division. That's just what people do. Some more, and some less, but division reigns nonetheless. It's human nature.

To some extent, true. But Norway and Japan are widely regarded as the safest nations. They definitely do not have the division and strife that exists here.
They're also some of the most atheistic (Japan by the Western Atheist/Theist understanding) nations on the planet.

 

[cladking]

I was like totally whatevs to all that quite a while back.

This is typical of all those who can't support their beliefs.

At least religious people will usually admit when part of their argument must be taken on faith. Science believers just quit arguing.

 

[rrobs]

They were not doing that in 1950s America. But people like me? Here we were tortured, we were sterilized, we were lobotomized, we were criminalized.
Black people weren't even allowed in many communities. They weren't legally guaranteed the right to vote. They couldn't even attend the same schools.
Women who didn't conform? They too were tortured, sterilized, lobotomized, and thrown in into psych wards (which were hardly different than dungeons then).

So are we trying to out victimize one another here? Yes, we've all had it rough at times. It should be no news flash that some people can be cruel. Woke will not change that.

And do you know who killed more Christians than anyone way back when that was common in Western society? Other Christians.

I'll give you that so called Christians killed other Christians. Somewhere, sometime, a gay guy killed another gay guy. Are all gay guys therefore murderers?

Martin Luther King said judge people, not by color of their skin, but by their character. Given that each person has a unique character, it is never a good idea to put any group of people into a box.

If anyone, it's the hardcore Bible thumpers who'd love to go back to burning witches and queers.

Any hardcore Christian would do nothing but love those people. My wife is Wicca and she sleeps next to me every night. I've not yet felt the urge to burn her.

So, because you just cannot counter that I pointed out we are far more free without Christianity so strongly in control, you only real defense is to grasp at straws where sectarian conflicts rage on and dictators rule?

Unfortunately Roman Catholicism has been confused with Christianity. True Christians weren't the driving force behind the persecution. It was the Roman Catholic church which is frankly a devilish institution. I'm not talking about individual Catholics. They only go as far as they were taught. It's the institution that's rotten to the core.

Again, just ask yourself, from what you know of the gospels, can you find any indication that Jesus would harm anybody at all? He never did. In fact, he was so full of love that he asked to forgive the people people who tortured him for 36 hours before killing him. That is Christianity. All one need do is read the Bible with an open mind and it will be apparent that the Roman Catholic Church is virtually diametrically opposed to the scriptures.

Jehovah's scripture says thou shalt not suffer a witch to live, to kill homosexuals and their blood in on their hand, kill apostates, kill rebellious kids, kill women who aren't virgins on their wedding night, permits slavery, and prophets who are such terrible people the lies one told got entire cities in trouble in Jehovah and another one had kids mauled to death with a bear because they called him baldy.

All of that was in the OT. Basically, as I've said before, if you can't picture Jesus doing something, then neither would God. Jesus said on more than one occasion the he was a perfect representation of God. It remains for the student of the scriptures to square the two seemingly opposite ideas. Or you could just say the Bible is full of contradictions and let it go at that. That's much easier than actually working it to see if maybe there is some misunderstanding on our part.

 

[rrobs]

They were not doing that in 1950s America. But people like me? Here we were tortured, we were sterilized, we were lobotomized, we were criminalized.
Black people weren't even allowed in many communities. They weren't legally guaranteed the right to vote. They couldn't even attend the same schools.
Women who didn't conform? They too were tortured, sterilized, lobotomized, and thrown in into psych wards (which were hardly different than dungeons then).

All I can tell you is that if I were with you I would never let anyone harm you. I don't care if you're a pagan-witch-gay-trans-black-communist-white supremacist person or not. You're a person whom God loves more than we'll ever know. Since I represent God, I'll do the same. That is exactly what any true Bible believing Christian would do. Anything else is a counterfeit.

I would even try my best lovingly convince those who persecute others to stop it and learn to love as Jesus loved. He, and God, love unconditionally.