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The Believabliltiy of Evolution

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
The same point as reading anything else on a forum. A forum is meant to discuss one's views with others.


Odd question, but no, it's not a prelude to anything at all.
It isn't odd. Your OP is about the believability of evolution. Your twisting of the science and your diversions from that topic have been pointed out to you. Yet, you seem incredibly reluctant to remain on that point and demonstrate why it is not believable using evidence and not personal opinion.

I think it is clear that you reject anything that you feel threatens your personal interpretation of belief. Whether that threat is real or imagined.

What I have been looking for is objective evidence that supports your feelings and gives me a reason to reconsider my position.

Have I missed it?
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
It isn't odd. Your OP is about the believability of evolution. Your twisting of the science and your diversions from that topic have been pointed out to you. Yet, you seem incredibly reluctant to remain on that point and demonstrate why it is not believable using evidence and not personal opinion.

I think it is clear that you reject anything that you feel threatens your personal interpretation of belief. Whether that threat is real or imagined.

What I have been looking for is objective evidence that supports your feelings and gives me a reason to reconsider my position.

Have I missed it?
You said in one of your replies that you do study the Bible. I believe you just finished Ruth and Samuel. I could be wrong on the specifics, but I'm certain you do study it.

I gather you believe at least some, if not all, of Ruth and Samuel. I also understand you not to believe the creation account in Genesis and other books such as Job.

Assuming those two statements are correct, how do you determine which parts of scripture are true and which are not?

Yes, it's way off topic. I know that and I'll take full responsibilityt, but now that I've basically abandoned the OP with you, I am most interested in how you view the scriptures. I promise not to judge or proselytize you. Maybe I've missed something.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
I know you don't believe in evolution and you want to keep your mind closed to understanding it or giving it real consideration.
Does a year of studying evolution in college count as me giving evolution any consideration? If not a year, how long should I have spent before coming to a decision?

BTW, when I studied evolution at Georgia Tech, I wasn't a Christian, but I still found evolution to be a fairly contrived concept. It did not give me any firm foundation to explain the reality we see in flora and fauna.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
What I have been looking for is objective evidence that supports your feelings and gives me a reason to reconsider my position.

Have I missed it?
Genesis? Job? Those are all I have to offer you. Is that objective? It would be up to each individual to decide. Of course, objectivity is a pretty elusive concept given that it resides in the very subjective minds of people.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
So all you have is an opinion with no evidence regarding the theory at all.

You could just say that.
I take the Words of God to be all the evidence I need. I understand that is not enough for you. You seem to want to squeeze the scriptures so as to fit with science. I trust you understand that science is in constant flux. What is true in the scientific world today may or may not be true tomorrow. I guess it's a constant revision of the scriptures to make them keep up with the ever changing science.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
You said in one of your replies that you do study the Bible. I believe you just finished Ruth and Samuel. I could be wrong on the specifics, but I'm certain you do study it.

I gather you believe at least some, if not all, of Ruth and Samuel. I also understand you not to believe the creation account in Genesis and other books such as Job.

Assuming those two statements are correct, how do you determine which parts of scripture are true and which are not?

Yes, it's way off topic. I know that and I'll take full responsibilityt, but now that I've basically abandoned the OP with you, I am most interested in how you view the scriptures. I promise not to judge or proselytize you. Maybe I've missed something.
I am not interested in getting into a discussion of my personal views of the Bible in this thread, since, as you say, it is off topic. However, it is not that I do not believe in creation, I just do not interpret it literally as written and consider that an allegory for consumption by a culture that would not have understood a more detailed and accurate description. Not that they were less intelligent than we are, but that they were more ignorant of the world around them. My other choices, as I see it, would be do like some and bury my head in the sand and pretend certain parts of reality do not exist or to abandon my beliefs. Neither of those is a good option. Since I do not require evidence to believe, I do not fear that new discoveries will destroy that.

That is all I am going to say and I would recommend you end your query there or it might give the false impression that you are using this to attack another Christian. I wouldn't want to feel persecuted.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
I take the Words of God to be all the evidence I need. I understand that is not enough for you. You seem to want to squeeze the scriptures so as to fit with science. I trust you understand that science is in constant flux. What is true in the scientific world today may or may not be true tomorrow. I guess it's a constant revision of the scriptures to make them keep up with the ever changing science.
That is your personal opinion and clearly you believe that you know everything that God is saying and understand and interpret without error. Feel free to. I don't believe that you do. And I can have that opinion too.

A pillar of strength in science is the built in ability of self-correction when new information is found or determined. This gives it great power as a tool of learning.

Maybe it would be better to recognize that we really do not understand everything in the Bible and that those claiming to are doing so for reasons other than actual understanding. Since life has not stood still over the last 2,000 years, maybe it was never intended to have a static interpretation. It seems to cause a lot of problems for people that hold that view certainly.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Genesis? Job? Those are all I have to offer you. Is that objective? It would be up to each individual to decide. Of course, objectivity is a pretty elusive concept given that it resides in the very subjective minds of people.
Your choices are very subjective. Simply stating that you do not have any objective evidence would have been a sufficient and accurate answer.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
You said in one of your replies that you do study the Bible. I believe you just finished Ruth and Samuel. I could be wrong on the specifics, but I'm certain you do study it.

I gather you believe at least some, if not all, of Ruth and Samuel. I also understand you not to believe the creation account in Genesis and other books such as Job.

Assuming those two statements are correct, how do you determine which parts of scripture are true and which are not?

Yes, it's way off topic. I know that and I'll take full responsibilityt, but now that I've basically abandoned the OP with you, I am most interested in how you view the scriptures. I promise not to judge or proselytize you. Maybe I've missed something.
As a person, I have no objection to your believing your personal beliefs. As a Christian, I support you and join you in believing in God. But you are not just holding beliefs that you think are true. You are making claims about them that impact existing knowledge. None of which says there is no God by the way.

When a person does that, it is completely in keeping to expect them to provide objective evidence backing up those claims. Otherwise, all you are doing is voicing your opinion. I do not see that you should have an expectation that your opinion will be accepted as truth, just because you hold it and voice it. I may be Christian, but I know something about science too. It is my expectation that anyone making claims about it will take those claims seriously and offer the respect of providing that evidence to back up what they say. I am not going to just throw my support into some claim made by a Christian simply because they are a Christian. That does not make a person bulletproof from error or incorrect understanding. And considering how many Christians there are in this world and that every one of them has an opinion, it is not logically possible to agree with all of them on that basis.

If a person challenges the validity of a very well-established and incredibly well-supported scientific theory, I expect evidence of a high order and robust magnitude along with a reasoned explanation of how it supports their challenge. I would expect no less from a Christian than I would from anyone else. Perhaps I should expect more from my own.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
I ask for a citation supporting a couple of specific claims, and I get:
Language arose suddenly 40,000 years ago. Since we know from experiment and observation that there are no gradual changes in life then it follows that something in humans suddenly arose making complex language possible. The most likely possible change was a (sudden) mutation in the human brain and the most likely mutation is just something simple like the ability to use higher brain functions in communication. I'm all ears if you have another hypothesis but I'm sure you don't because you already believe in evolution, the power of trial and error, the efficacy of superstition, and the omniscience of science. You believe beavers invented dams genetically and termite cities are the result of genetics despite the fact such beliefs are illogical and based almost solely on inductive reasoning rather than experiment.

Everything in existence had to come from things that already existed. Yet we still ponder whether an egg or a chicken came first. We can't see the forest for the trees and can't really understand the trees because all life is consciousness which is fundamental to its understanding. So instead of seeing experimental results and observation we see our beliefs.

What exactly do you think made humans unique? Do you believe we are more intelligent than rabbits and pigs? Why do you think we have such difficulty learning even the simplest animal languages? My theory is the simplest explanation for everything and it is nearly a perfect fit with what ancient people said. It explains evidence, logic itself, science and history. It is mostly a different perspective.

As I said earlier in this thread we'll probably never know the causative events of any change in major species. Oh sure, we can be witness to some by causing them and have seen the results of population bottlenecks imposed on dogs and farm animals etc, We can deduce and even show how homo omnisciencis arose but showing the cause of homo sapiens is going to remain impossible even though we know the name of the first individual which is preserved in a confused form right in the Bible. We'll probably be able to show the growth in the brain that defines our species in children between two and three years of age. We probably in time could even recreate homo sapiens except there are ethical concerns with doing so.

If you want citations it will be necessary to do the work. Until then I can only refer you to every observation and experiment ever made as well as the known facts and history. It is your job to find an observation or fact that contradicts this theory. Find something illogical about it. Don't ask for citations because biologists are wrong and believe in gradual change despite the fact they can't show it. I can show that all change is sudden and that ancient writing is in agreement. I have provided endless "citation" from logic and and experiment yet you simply choose to see something different. All change is sudden and all individuals are equally fit.

So this dude cannot produce a SINGLE citation to a published, recognized work of any kind in support of his simplistic, unscientific mere assertions, Then he has the hysterical gall to write:

"Until then I can only refer you to every observation and experiment ever made as well as the known facts and history. It is your job to find an observation or fact that contradicts this theory"​

Despite NOT PRESENTING A THEORY and NOT PRODUCING ANY EVIDENCE IN SUPPORT OF THIS THEORY. This is not how science - or logic - works. You cannot just toss out some autoerotic gibberish and then pretend it is TRUTH until someone proves the opposite. This is how children think.

This is the sort of absurdist nonsense that is the product of the Dunning-Kruger effect and a clear lack of education.

And then this knee-slapper:

"I have provided endless "citation" from logic and and experiment yet you simply choose to see something different."​

You have not mentioned a SINGLE experiment. Not one. You have been asked - FOR YEARS - to provide "experiments" that supported your claims, and on the rare occasions that you actually tried to do so, you completely undermined your position due to your clear ignorance of the subject matter - like 'choosing to grow a broccas [sic] area'??? NOT ONE tidbit of support - so surprise since you are so spectacularly ignorant of such things that you claimed - repeatedly - that there is a 'bifurcated' speech area in the 'midbrain.'

My biggest question is why do creationist sites tolerate your nonsense, for it can only serve to make their 'big tent' look like a circus in which the only acts are bad clown ones.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
This is not how science - or logic - works.

You've already expressed your belief in Peers and their role in determining reality.

No matter how many times I've asked you to support your belief in slow evolution you have failed to produce a single experiment to support it. I keep getting told by you and others that this is fundamental to evolution and everyone knows. Yes, it is fundamental because it is an assumption. But all real observation and experiment shows punctuated equilibrium and other sudden changes in life. Survival of the fittest is simply not observed and what is observed is change in species driven by the behavior of individuals which is just like the Bible suggests.

You're about headed to my ignore list on this site too.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
You're about headed to my ignore list on this site too.

You've got nothing. You have no experiments, science, observations, or logic to prop up your laughable Dunning-Kruger assertions.
Ignore away - I've exposed your nonsense repeatedly and you are too full of yourself to admit that you could possibly be wrong.

Still no experimentation supporting your assertions. And I will keep pointing it out whether you ignore it or not, so that anyone can see your phoniness laid bare.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
You should also look up 'straw man' argument.

That would be kind of funny to you if you could follow the argument.

Just to be clear here it was a mutation that tied the wernickes area more closely to higher brain functions which allowed complex language and THIS complex digital language that created the human race (Homo Sapiens). The language became too complex for individuals to use and a new language arose that is analog (modern languages). These many new languages required a translator in each brain which is the brocas area. All of history is apparent in these terms.

You want a citation for a mutation that I claim happened 40,000 years ago. To do this properly we'd need a sample of the population of individuals of proto-humans among whom the mutation occurred and then we'd need a sample of Adam's DNA as well as a few slices of his brain from key areas. Of course to be sure we should sample at least the next few generations and these sample sizes would need to be quite large.

You want the impossible which is exactly what the Theory of Evolution is. There is no means to show that survival of the fittest causes a gradual change in species. Logically some change in species must occur in just such a manner but to believe that this applies to the fossil record is meaningless speculation founded in belief rather than experiment.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
You want a citation for a mutation that I claim happened 40,000 years ago. To do this properly we'd need a sample of the population of individuals of proto-humans among whom the mutation occurred and then we'd need a sample of Adam's DNA as well as a few slices of his brain from key areas. Of course to be sure we should sample at least the next few generations and these sample sizes would need to be quite large.

I should point out that these are not only impossibilities and can never be done (most people here are aware of this), but even if we had all these samples they would be meaningless to us at this time because we don't understand consciousness. Indeed, even if we understood consciousness we'd have to make inferences about how it is tied to brain anatomy and "inferences" is how Darwin came up with "survival of the fittest"
in the first place. It is assumptions and superstitions that give rise to evil like "survival of the fittest". It is inferences that birth evils like "subconsciousness". It is Look and See Science that gave us ramps. It is soup of the day science that has produced infinite numbers of ramps. All such ideas are "evil" because people act on their beliefs and they lead to bad behavior and bad behavior leads to a sudden change in species. It's in the Bible but we can't see it because we assume the Bible was written by sun addled bumpkins and because most of it is translated from language that can't be translated. But, of course, you can't understand any of this either. You believe that unless a Peer says humans suddenly started acting like humans 40,000 years ago because there mustta been a mutation it can not be true and if he does then you can hang your hat on it.

All REAL SCIENCE is based on experiment and Peers have no effect on it. This is not complex and I've tried to help you understand this more times than I can count. There is no science without experiment.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Genesis? Job? Those are all I have to offer you. Is that objective? It would be up to each individual to decide. Of course, objectivity is a pretty elusive concept given that it resides in the very subjective minds of people.
Bible stories are claims, not evidence.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
All such ideas are "evil" because people act on their beliefs and they lead to bad behavior and bad behavior leads to a sudden change in species.

And the greatest evil is the belief that science knows everything and our leaders make their decisions based on the greatest good for the greatest numbers.

This has led to a world that suppresses faith and digs its resources out of the ground just to rebury them in landfills. The belief that we know everything is trashing the planet because it is actually greed driving policy everywhere. It is justified in the minds of the usurpers by the belief that it is an example of "survival of the fittest" so they can lead us to utopia. It doesn't require a scientist to look around and see what direction we are actually headed by these beliefs. Most people are satisfied having basic needs met and not being whipped while dragging stones around.

We are homo omnisciencis and for our species everyone believes he's right because everyone sees exactly what he wants to believe. I believe we can break the cycle of war, poverty, and needless death and this is what I see. Just because we each see what we believe doesn't make any scientist or anyone else wrong. But the facts, logic, and observation makes the "theory" of evolution wrong.


If I must get so far off topic again then a second person will go on my ignore list.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
You should also look up 'straw man' argument. You might see this as an example:

"Not only must a particular life form spontaneously arise, but the other organisms upon which it depends must have arisen in lock step."
You quoted my OP as an example of a strong man argument. A straw man is something one does in reply to another person's assertion in such a way that it distorts what the person said to make for an easier attack. The OP was just that, an OP and not a reply to someone else. Therefore it is not a straw man. I think your reply would be a better example of a straw man.
 
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