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The Best Argument Against the Existence of God

Super Universe

Defender of God
Logic as am academic discipline was created around 2600 years ago, but as a "characteristic of the universe" it always existed. In that it's like biology or mathematics. These academic disciplined were first created around the same time than logic, but their subject always existed. As a living organism we evolved an instinctive ability to understand the subject of logic (the interelation between facts and investigative skills), just like we evolved an ability to understand numbers, to better survive and manipulate an hostile environment.



To a certain point yes. You cannot have complex discussion, critique, debates, etc. without a commonly accepted sets of rules and comprehension of the world's mechanic. You need to agree on interelation between proposition and that's what logic studies, the interelation between facts.



Then why do you ask me to disprove your definition of God as the Prime Creator of the universe for which the proof of his existence is the existence of the universe itself? You asked me to prove you wrong using logic. Do you want me to do that and do you want to read that or do you just want to move on to something else with you life?



But they cannot be KNOWN to be true nor can they be claimed to be true; they can only be said to be potentially true until proven or disproven. Everything and anything could be true that doesn't mean that everything is true. Logic allows KNOWLEDGE of the truth. It allows to make a distinction between the things you believe and the things you know.



Note that in all the situation above the people who claim something PROVED IT beyond all reasonnable doubt and they had logical arguments and scientific evidences to support their claim.

In this scenario, you are the admirals not Army General Mitchell because you specifically told me you would never accept any argument against your unproven second premise and you would not provide any proofs for it either. You are doing a thing akin to claiming you can be on the sunken battleship and still be correct when you say "this ship cannot be sunk and nothing can prove me wrong".

Describe art with logic. Describe poetry, music, love, sadness. You can quote the dictionary but that leaves out the really important part, the essence, the powerful overwhelming feeling that those things produce in people. I know you don't understand. How could you? To you those things can be logically quantified and measured and analyzed but that's what a robot would do, not a human.

Logic is necessary to comprehend? To you it is. There is a man who can recite Pi to 100,000 places correctly. Use logic to explain that. You can't, but I can. I know what he is doing, how it works. Your logic can't explain things that are outside of the box but that is the only way to fully understand the reality of the universe. Science has to blend with art. They have to become one because they are one. I know you don't understand.

Why did I ask you to disprove my definition of God? So I could disagree with your result regardless of the evidence. To prove to you that humans are emotional beings and that emotion drives us, not logical thinking. You are a robot but the rest of us are not. You think we should be like you but losing our emotions is abhorent to humans.

I cannot claim something true when it's not? Sure I can, it happens all the time. Theists say that God exists and atheists say that God does not exist. One group is correct and the other is wrong. It's happening right now on this forum.

Logic allows knowledge of the truth? As if it had to power to do otherwise. Logic doesn't allow anything to happen, those things happen irregardless of logic.

Robots can't understand empathy. You can quote the dictionary but you have never felt it so you don't really know what it is.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Describe art with logic. Describe poetry, music, love, sadness. You can quote the dictionary but that leaves out the really important part, the essence, the powerful overwhelming feeling that those things produce in people. I know you don't understand. How could you? To you those things can be logically quantified and measured and analyzed but that's what a robot would do, not a human.

You are absolutely right. Logic cannot describe art or feelings. It can critique, analyse or compare art and thematics. In the same fashion it cannot describe feelings, but it can help analyse them and predict emotional reaction to a certain degree.

Logic is necessary to comprehend? To you it is. There is a man who can recite Pi to 100,000 places correctly. Use logic to explain that.

You are aware that mathematics is an offshot of logic. You can't do math without doing logic. Mathematics is logical.

Why did I ask you to disprove my definition of God? So I could disagree with your result regardless of the evidence. To prove to you that humans are emotional beings and that emotion drives us, not logical thinking. You are a robot but the rest of us are not. You think we should be like you but losing our emotions is abhorent to humans.

If you want to tell me that you will never accept anything to be true if you don't like it, you absolutely can. You can claim to be dogmatic and proud to be. That doesn't objectively make you correct though. It makes you feel like you are correct. I'm not dogmatic. I don't like dogmatism. Dogmatism is the opposite of truthseeking, curiosity, tolerance, kindness and courage. I don't need an elaborate "game" to be convinced that there is such a thing as dogmatic people.

I cannot claim something true when it's not? Sure I can, it happens all the time. Theists say that God exists and atheists say that God does not exist. One group is correct and the other is wrong. It's happening right now on this forum.

Yes, you can claim it, but you can't KNOW because you can't PROVE IT. Some try on this forum to prove that they are correct about things. They make arguments, present evidences and anaylise them (in other words they use logic).
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
You are absolutely right. Logic cannot describe art or feelings. It can critique, analyse or compare art and thematics. In the same fashion it cannot describe feelings, but it can help analyse them and predict emotional reaction to a certain degree.



You are aware that mathematics is an offshot of logic. You can't do math without doing logic. Mathematics is logical.



If you want to tell me that you will never accept anything to be true if you don't like it, you absolutely can. You can claim to be dogmatic and proud to be. That doesn't objectively make you correct though. It makes you feel like you are correct. I'm not dogmatic. I don't like dogmatism. Dogmatism is the opposite of truthseeking, curiosity, tolerance, kindness and courage. I don't need an elaborate "game" to be convinced that there is such a thing as dogmatic people.



Yes, you can claim it, but you can't KNOW because you can't PROVE IT. Some try on this forum to prove that they are correct about things. They make arguments, present evidences and anaylise them (in other words they use logic).

Mathematics is logical? Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. You can take one pie and slice it into three exactly equal parts. Using math if you divide 1 by 3, you get .3333333333... That's not exact. That's not logical. Uh oh, "Error! Error! Error! Beep! Beep! Beep!"

I don't have to prove anything to know. I just have to have the experience myself. I can describe the experience to others but they won't feel it, it won't be the same. You have to have the "Wow!" experience yourself. And you never have. If you do I guarantee you one thing, there's no way you could describe it to someone and have them really understand.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Mathematics is logical? Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. You can take one pie and slice it into three exactly equal parts. Using math if you divide 1 by 3, you get .3333333333... That's not exact. That's not logical. Uh oh, "Error! Error! Error! Beep! Beep! Beep!"

Yeah, it's completely logical. You simply don't understand math and logic. Don't confuse your ignorrance for knowledge, but that's what dogmatic people do.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
.33333 multiplied by 3 is .99999. Where is the missing part?

Place-value numbers can have multiple expressions. There are no missing part. There was an interesting article in a vulgarisation science magasine about the subject a couple of years. To make it more simple the mathematic grammar you are using above (finite decimal positional notation), isn' adapted to illustrate scuch an equation truthfully. That's why the "correct" way to represent it is in rational numbers in the form of a fraction.
 
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Super Universe

Defender of God
Place-value numbers can have multiple expressions. There are no missing part. There was an interesting article in a vulgarisation science magasine about the subject a couple of years. To make it more simple the mathematic grammar you are using above (finite decimal positional notation), isn' adapted to illustrate scuch an equation truthfully. That's why the "correct" way to represent it is in rational numbers in the form of a fraction.

In the US we call that spin. Otherwise known as lying.
 

Raw020

Just me.
I don't see either as mutually exclusive. Considering that your deity would have some quasi or completely limitless capabilities and almost boundless energy for work, him delegating his authority to a scant few humans during a 1000 years period over the 200 000 years of homo sapiens existence. I would consider that to be extremely naive to think it would work as a form of guidance and that naivety is born out of laziness for not trying to understand humans as they are.



That shows He cares about how things should be done, it doesn't show He cares about results, efficacy or even the subject of His orders and instructions. A king who delegates to too few and/or incompetant ministers too vague instructions will be considered, at best, as a petulant king. Shouldn't a God be expected to do better by far than any king?

Why give a law if He cares less about results? Why not rather let things be the way they are?
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Why give a law if He cares less about results? Why not rather let things be the way they are?

Well, you tell me. Of course, if a deity doesn't communicate with people we can't really say that such a deity is interested in developping a relationship with other sentient creatures.
 
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