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The best reversal of an Atheist argument I have ever heard.

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
You can't experiment scientifically with something that isn't material. And when is the last time you ever repeated an experiment by a well known scientist? My guess is never. You just choose to trust the scientist's observations because you assume they are fact.
But you could if you wanted to. And other scientists have done just that. That's why we rely on more than one study that points to a certain conclusion. One study on its own doesn't mean much. But several studies pointing to the same thing - now we're talking about evidence.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I am aware that a person can reject a religious premise, but what I think we agree on is people cannot reject the possibility of what the religion teaches. They at least think it might be true. What non-theistic evolution teaches is that everything that happens in nature just happens, there's no rhyme or reason. I cannot accept that because there's a cause to everything except for the ultimate initiator (God). Cells send pain signals up and down our body, why? Because they are caused to do that. Do I think everything happens for a reason? No. But I do believe that the ultimate initiator can intervene at any moment in history.
Evolution doesn't teach that there's no rhyme or reason to nature. It's an attempt to quantify and explain why and how nature operates in the way it does.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Well, the spiritual guidance could lead someone to study some maps, I suppose. And there's always the advice of people who know the roads - I shaved off a few hours going from the Pigeon Forge area back up here by taking the advice of a friend of my dad's, and that route is definitely not on a GPS, or a commonly suggested route when people take the trip (it's usually the longer route through Ohio). By it's very nature, science does have limitations, and that it's only perspectives are those doing it. Ideally it should be that way, but at the same time, things would be very different if more people were educated in science and it was easier to access equipment, labs, and publishing.
Using maps would be using cartography & printing technologies, not spiritual guidance.
Btw, I like planning ahead with Google Maps & advice from locals when programming my GPS.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I am aware that a person can reject a religious premise, but what I think we agree on is people cannot reject the possibility of what the religion teaches. They at least think it might be true.
Anyone who claims that there is no possibility of the truth of religious claims is making a claim they have to demonstrate; but the same is true of anyone who asserts, absolutely or otherwise, the truth of any religious claim.

What non-theistic evolution teaches is that everything that happens in nature just happens, there's no rhyme or reason.
Not really. Firstly, "non-theistic evolution" isn't really a thing. Evolution is evolution whether you believe God exists or not, the process as described by the theory is exactly the same, and the theory says absolutely nothing about the existence or nonexistence of a God.

Secondly, evolutionary theory is simply a model describing how life changes over time. It proposes the causes and mechanisms of speciation and exactly why they occur, so to say it teaches that there is no "rhyme or reason" is not accurate.

I cannot accept that because there's a cause to everything except for the ultimate initiator (God).
This is a claim you need to demonstrate.

Cells send pain signals up and down our body, why? Because they are caused to do that.
So? What do you think that proves? Pain is an effect. Why is its causal nature significant?

Do I think everything happens for a reason? No. But I do believe that the ultimate initiator can intervene at any moment in history.
Why?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I am aware that a person can reject a religious premise, but what I think we agree on is people cannot reject the possibility of what the religion teaches.

Because it makes unfalseable claims, perhaps?

There is no well-agreed upon understanding of what defines a religion, but I tend to think of religion as having little time to waste in matters that are forever shrouded in uncertainty.

Maybe you mean unimportant matters such as whether there is a creator God or whether Jesus existed in the flesh?

Sure, it is impossible to disprove either. Frankly, it is even harder to conceive of a reason why it would matter. Science should not waste time with that, and much less should religion.

Religious truth is not very ammenable to scientific rigor because it is so personal and subjective, but it is not to be lost in a sea of uncertainty, of undemonstrable dogma.

They at least think it might be true. What non-theistic evolution teaches is that everything that happens in nature just happens, there's no rhyme or reason.
There are reasons, and they are taught aplenty. That they won't really support the myth of a creator guiding it is ultimately a minor matter, and the obsession of some in raising it to unreasonable levels of importance demonstrates little more than how mishandled such a belief has become.

I cannot accept that because there's a cause to everything except for the ultimate initiator (God).

If you can't accept that things may happen without a discernible cause, then that is a flaw in your rational processes, don't you think?

Cells send pain signals up and down our body, why? Because they are caused to do that.
I don't think that makes rational sense. It is not even untrue.

Do I think everything happens for a reason? No. But I do believe that the ultimate initiator can intervene at any moment in history.
You privilege. Anything is possible until disproved, I guess.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
All this relies on the assumption that the accounts are reliable.
This :pointup:

Craig's problem when he makes these kinds of arguments (as he frequently does) is that it assumes the evidence first, and then attempts to hide this by supposedly questioning where the evidence leads. However, he only considers possibilities that follow from the accounts we have being taken as accurate statements of what people at the time saw and thought regarding Jesus' death and resurrection. Not later accounts filtered through retellings, myth, variability and fixation in oral tradition, fictitious memories (and fictitious accounts!), etc. It's as if we have to take the resurrection story as real to begin with.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
1. The Atheist said what anyone that is familiar with debate or philosophy sees as a legitimate demand of a miraculous claim. He said a resurrection (Jesus) is an extraordinary event and requires extraordinary evidence. All of us would probably heartily agree with this seemingly absolute requirement.

a. My response would have been to show the evidence we have for the resurrection compared to any in ancient history is extraordinary. BTW that what countless lawyers and historians do say. However we are not quite in Craig's league.

2. Craig responded that in this case only two things were necessary to prove a resurrection of Christ occurred. No extraordinary evidence was required, two easy and mundane things were all that was necessary.

A. The ability of those responsible to know a person is actually dead.
The Romans (at peril of their own lives) were experts at knowing when a person was dead. They even knew how to keep a person at the point of death, but not cross the line until they decided to. So as to exact maximum suffering. Those assigned to actual crucifixion were experts at knowing that a person had died (again at the peril of their own lives). They even ensured it whether they doubted it or not but thrusting a 4 inch spear through the heart, or breaking both legs.

B. The ability of people afterwards to know if a guy was alive or not.
Only two candidates are known in accepted history to have lived through Roman crucifixion. A guy who was taken down as soon as put up (forget his name but it is easily google-ed), when the order was rescinded, and Jesus Christ being the only other well known possibility.

That one is really weak.

Why would anyone put that much faith on the idea that the Gospels were mean to be literal descriptions in the first place; that the ressurrection accounts specifically were not meant to be fables; that there is no artistic license at work there to present some disciple as if it were Jesus; and that the very few people who had much of a reason to care whether Jesus died or survived in a very sorry shape were particularly careful in so doing?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You can't experiment scientifically with something that isn't material.
All those experiments in personality research, perception, linguistics, Gedankenexperimente, and even the discovery of subatomic particles and dynamics...they weren't scientific?

And when is the last time you ever repeated an experiment by a well known scientist?
Most of the experiments I conduced were under the direction of a well-known scientist (the head of my lab). Does that count? I haven't done much replication work, just new research. That's what most scientists do most of the time: extend previous work, not replicate others' work (which is unfortunate, really; there should be much more replication work than there is).
My guess is never. You just choose to trust the scientist's observations because you assume they are fact.
Or because the technology works and he's had years of engineering experience.
 

The Neo Nerd

Well-Known Member
I am aware that a person can reject a religious premise, but what I think we agree on is people cannot reject the possibility of what the religion teaches.

I agree. But they can also accept that something could be true and reject that it is true. It is the reason i am agnostic.

What non-theistic evolution teaches is that everything that happens in nature just happens, there's no rhyme or reason.

Yeah it's just evolution. And reason (in the grand universal sense) is not in the purview of science and they never pretend it is.

I cannot accept that because there's a cause to everything except for the ultimate initiator (God).

This is a very common assertion and the existence of this god does need to be proven before i will except it.

Cells send pain signals up and down our body, why? Because they are caused to do that.

Yes and those causes can be tested and falsified. Can you god be tested and falsified.
 

SpeaksForTheTrees

Well-Known Member
None of you have the authority to speak for God , unless you have master's in every conceivable subject.
The argument is simple academic gymnastics with no real relevancy.
If you rely on a final testimony of a resurrection may be Christianity not for you is like in slang how many miricles you guys need.

Is pointless arguement that an immortal being can be crucified and fact he was crucified proves it is possible to kill immortal being.
Great logic
 
Well how do we know that the scientist's accounts on their findings are reliable? That's what happens when they collect data, it's an account of their findings.

That's not really how it works. Scientific theories become theories when they are verified in multiple ways by multiple people. How can we independently verify a religious claim? Are they open to being potentially falsified or being tested at all? How can we for example, support the Biblical account when there are no contemporary accounts confirming it? Especially on things that would have MULTIPLE contemporary accounts confirming if they were indeed true. Sorry, one can make many arguments for religious beliefs or against science, but this isn't one of them.

Science is not, and never has been a matter of "I did this, and got this result. Just trust me, here's what I found.". It's "I hypothesize this, I test it, I get this result. Can you please test and confirm it? And if not, why not? If so, can we test it in other ways to potentially falsify it before assuming it's accurate? Is there any other way we can approach this to be sure the result isn't a fluke?". The scientific method leans heavily towards something isn't true unless it can be supported. It's assumed incorrect until it's demonstrated correct. Not "Take my word for it, prove me wrong".
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The scientist in me has to respond to such a portrayal, so I apologize in advance for going off topic.

That's not really how it works. Scientific theories become theories when they are verified in multiple ways by multiple people.
Not really. This is mainly just one of the distortions/simplifications many have thanks to the quality of scientific education (often even at the university level) non-scientists are exposed to (and, to be fair, discourse between scientists and the public). I suppose it's fair to say that even though most theories in the sciences aren't actually called theories, they still qualify. But many theories, including those that are well-known (like the "theory of gravity" or "chaos theory") are either just plain wrong or are no more scientific theories than is "number theory" or "graph theory". Others, like M-theory (a form of string theory) are not only unverified by anybody, they aren't even verifiable in principle (and in some cases may never be). Still others, such as embodied cognition, have been verified for decades whilst competing, incompatible theories (e.g., massive modularity and symbol processing) have been around even longer and continue to be "verified" alongside incompatible theories. Still others (like evolution) are theories but even more (entire fields, such as evolutionary psychology, depend upon evolutionary theory) and are too large to be verified because certain parts of the theory are always changing (actually, this is true of theories in general).

Are they open to being potentially falsified or being tested at all?
Yes.
How can we for example, support the Biblical account when there are no contemporary accounts confirming it?
Because the biblical account consists of competing and multiple contemporary accounts much of the time, is clearly historically inaccurate sometimes, and because most of the time myths and fiction is what historians have to work with.
Of course, for miracles the historical method rules them out to start with (so, for example, historians view miraculous claims in historical documents like the gospels or The Life of Appolonius of Tyana as either fictitious or evidence that people exaggerated or otherwise distorted/misunderstood an historical event).

Science is not, and never has been a matter of "I did this, and got this result. Just trust me, here's what I found."
Or at least it shouldn't be, and in general to the extent scientists do this there is enough competition and honesty for progress despite such failings.

It's "I hypothesize this, I test it, I get this result. Can you please test and confirm it?
It doesn't work anything like this. Hypotheses are generated from theories to extend theories and tested (with conclusions interpreted in light of) findings. These are then reviewed and published (usually only if the results are positive, unfortunately, as failed experiments should be published but aren't because we too often 1) know that nobody's career is furthered by publishing failures and 2) we still hope that things didn't work because we need to tweak the experimental design). Most of the time, they are never replicated and often even replication isn't actually replication but another test of the same idea under different conditions. Finally, we never ask "please test this" and lately problems with sharing data in order to facilitate replication ha become an issue, particularly in politically charged fields like climate science.

This is also not true of much work in physics, where it is impossible to actually "test" theories the way we normally think of it as most discoveries are derived mathematically and nobody is certain of the relationship between the mathematical systems and a reality "out there". In other words, it's often hard to say what, exactly, is confirmed/verified.

The scientific method
...is, at least in the form you learn about, a fiction:
The Myth of the Scientific Method
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
I dont understand. We have more evidence of our four fathers: not just what is written but by how our American nation has been designed. I dont have to ask if Nazi killed over 1,000 jews even though I was not alive at the time. Instead, I can talknwith witnesses and those who have lived during that period to confirm what is written in my History book. Even then, I am going by hear and readsay because I have not met any Jew who can confirm himself the horror I hear and read about. This is recent.

Going back more, I have proof the Church exist. The popes are still carying the teachings of the Church. So I have some springlingly of evidence Peter may have existed. However, I only have hearsay and readsay of Jesus Christ. He existed long before the Church even existed.

Go further back to paganism. All I have is readsay and what Pagans today use as their source of belief and/or practice. I have no history that Pagans as defined by the Church (christianity) ever existed. I just read about it and trust the sources true because they have a long continuation of people still practicing the same thing.

It has not changed as christianity did from Judaism. If anything Judaism is more true than Christianity. Their nation may not be still standing but their community and customs are not readsay. I can actually talk to a Jew from an unbroken heritage.

I cannot do that with Christianity. Christians are a clogamerate of gentiles all around the globe (as so Acts) that decides to believe in Jesus. Has anyone met him? All say faith.

Jews say fact. I would ask a Jew if Jesus existed not the Church. Romans (speaking from a historical perspective not individual) have a knack for political "overups" for power etc. What makes Christians think they have the right information from the Apostles? Who was it? Peter was half Roman.

Anyway, I know this isnt a debate. Im just giving you what I learned and experience in christianity.

I honestly dont see why christians defend their faith as a whole. Their history is not pretty. I woulent consider myself Christian if I believed in Christ. However, according to the apostles gentiles were not "gods children" unless saved (if I said that right)

Christianity lives on the backs of the apostles who say they speak for god (holy spirit in Acts)

Judaism from how I see it gets their info straught from god. I never heard a Jew say "The Bible is Gods Word". I could be wrong. Jews please correct me. Im sure the connotation is different than a christian when deciphering how both see the bible and Torah and its author.

I remember reading from a Jew member here "why woule you (me) expect us (jews) to have the same Books as Christians when we are a different religion?"

That got me thinking. If christianity says they come from judaism and jews have a different book, when did their (christian) books started and can we trust them as the word of god or the word (not Word) interpreted through prophets.

Out of all this, how can one possible believe that this history is true beyond claims and readsay? Its beyond individual experience.
You must have missed the whole point of that threads initial purpose, because nothing here pertains to it. I would only need to overturn your points if I claimed my pointing out of a specific brilliant overturning (and rightly) so of a tactic that is etched into the non theist playbook proved Jesus rose from the dead. I could do so but that was not something I am interested in doing these days..
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I am afraid a facepalm image with a properly suited size for this OP would stretch through our entire galaxy.
Then instead of referring to cartoons, why don't you actually put forth the argument that actually justifies the trivial and adolescent claim you made.
 

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
a. My response would have been to show the evidence we have for the resurrection compared to any in ancient history is extraordinary. BTW that what countless lawyers and historians do say. However we are not quite in Craig's league.


Anecdotal evidence is no evidence.
 
The scientist in me has to respond to such a portrayal, so I apologize in advance for going off topic.


Not really. This is mainly just one of the distortions/simplifications many have thanks to the quality of scientific education (often even at the university level) non-scientists are exposed to (and, to be fair, discourse between scientists and the public). I suppose it's fair to say that even though most theories in the sciences aren't actually called theories, they still qualify. But many theories, including those that are well-known (like the "theory of gravity" or "chaos theory") are either just plain wrong or are no more scientific theories than is "number theory" or "graph theory". Others, like M-theory (a form of string theory) are not only unverified by anybody, they aren't even verifiable in principle (and in some cases may never be). Still others, such as embodied cognition, have been verified for decades whilst competing, incompatible theories (e.g., massive modularity and symbol processing) have been around even longer and continue to be "verified" alongside incompatible theories. Still others (like evolution) are theories but even more (entire fields, such as evolutionary psychology, depend upon evolutionary theory) and are too large to be verified because certain parts of the theory are always changing (actually, this is true of theories in general).


Yes.

Because the biblical account consists of competing and multiple contemporary accounts much of the time, is clearly historically inaccurate sometimes, and because most of the time myths and fiction is what historians have to work with.
Of course, for miracles the historical method rules them out to start with (so, for example, historians view miraculous claims in historical documents like the gospels or The Life of Appolonius of Tyana as either fictitious or evidence that people exaggerated or otherwise distorted/misunderstood an historical event).


Or at least it shouldn't be, and in general to the extent scientists do this there is enough competition and honesty for progress despite such failings.


It doesn't work anything like this. Hypotheses are generated from theories to extend theories and tested (with conclusions interpreted in light of) findings. These are then reviewed and published (usually only if the results are positive, unfortunately, as failed experiments should be published but aren't because we too often 1) know that nobody's career is furthered by publishing failures and 2) we still hope that things didn't work because we need to tweak the experimental design). Most of the time, they are never replicated and often even replication isn't actually replication but another test of the same idea under different conditions. Finally, we never ask "please test this" and lately problems with sharing data in order to facilitate replication ha become an issue, particularly in politically charged fields like climate science.

This is also not true of much work in physics, where it is impossible to actually "test" theories the way we normally think of it as most discoveries are derived mathematically and nobody is certain of the relationship between the mathematical systems and a reality "out there". In other words, it's often hard to say what, exactly, is confirmed/verified.


...is, at least in the form you learn about, a fiction:
The Myth of the Scientific Method

Ouch, so much incorrect in one post.
 
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