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The Bible Alone is Not Enough

Lindsey-Loo

Steel Magnolia
could you tell me which translation you're referring to?

Most of them say the same things in differant words, there are a few I don't find acceptable, like like a Baptist version my dad saved from childhood, I think it was called the Living Bible or Living translation or something.

tell me where to find Paul's third epistle to the Corinthians? (

No, but I could tell you where not to find it, and that's in the Bible.

tell me where the Bible tells us it's complete?

I'll get back to you on that after lunch.

tell me why what is now included in the Bible wasn't always included and why some of the books that were once included are no longer included?

Your going to have to elaborate on that a bit in order for me to respond. Perhaps cite some sources?
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
smoky*mountain*starlight said:
Most of them say the same things in differant words, there are a few I don't find acceptable, like like a Baptist version my dad saved from childhood, I think it was called the Living Bible or Living translation or something.
Afraid not. You have fewer books than I do, for instance, and some that you do have a shortened. You have one Psalm less than we do and those you do have are differently numbered. You use a post-Christian Hebrew text as the basis for your OT whereas we take a pre-Christian Greek translation (and there are some important differences - as the DSS have shown us, they're from different Scriptural traditions).

No, but I could tell you where not to find it, and that's in the Bible.
But why? And does that mean that it is necessarily not inspired?

I'll get back to you on that after lunch.
You might need rather longer - it doesn't say that anywhere, not even in my significantly longer canon.

Your going to have to elaborate on that a bit in order for me to respond. Perhaps cite some sources?
How about, why did the inventors of sola scriptura remove books from the canon? Under what authority and what does this do to their claim to hold to the canon of Scripture as sole authority? If you want an example of such a book, why not look in your Bible and tell me if you can find 1 Maccabees.

James
 

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
smoky*mountain*starlight said:
Most of them say the same things in differant words, there are a few I don't find acceptable, like like a Baptist version my dad saved from childhood, I think it was called the Living Bible or Living translation or something.

No, but I could tell you where not to find it, and that's in the Bible.

I'll get back to you on that after lunch.

Your going to have to elaborate on that a bit in order for me to respond. Perhaps cite some sources?

Don't let these people intimidate you or destroy your trust in God's Holy Word, you have a complete bible, you lack nothing in your faith that can be found in these supposed missing books or the ones that were left out.

We use the same OT canon as the Jews did to whom were commited the oracles of God.
Rom 3v1-2: What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
*Paul* said:
Don't let these people intimidate you or destroy your trust in God's Holy Word, you have a complete bible, you lack nothing in your faith that can be found in these supposed missing books or the ones that were left out.
Nobody's rying to destroy her faith in anything, but you are diossembling to suggest that books were left out, they were removed by the Reformers.

We use the same OT canon as the Jews did to whom were commited the oracles of God.
Rom 3v1-2: What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

No you don't. The canon we use is Jewish, it was created by Jews for Jews and importantly is pre-Christian in origin. It was the canon of the Church from the very beginning and nobody - except St. Jeromw who was ignored by everyone else in this matter - questioned that until some 1500 years later. The canon you use is also Jewish but it didn't even exist until centuries after the Crucifixion and was created by Jews who had rejected Christ in an environment in which they were doing their utmost to combat Christianity. It seems fairly obvious to me which one of the canons ought to be preferred by Christians.

James
 

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
The Tanakh

The Torah:
Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy; Numbers

The prophets:

Joshua;Judges;Samuel(1&2);Kings(1&2);Isaiah;Jeremish;Ezekiel;Hosea;Joel;Amos;Obadiah;Jonah;Micah;Nahum;Habbakuk;Zepheniah;Haggai;Zecheriah;Malachi

The Writings

Psalms;proverbs;Job;Song of songs;Ruth Lamentations;Ecclesiastes;Esther;Daniel;Esther-Nehemiah;Chronicles (1&2)

The septuagint is a translation and of no authority over the Masoretic Hebrew which was meticulously copied through the centuries.


Francis Turretin:
V. It is not, therefore, to be asked whether it should have any authority in the church. We concede that it is of great weight, and rightly to be preferred to other translations.

(1) It is the oldest of all, made two thousand years ago, and so to be honored for its hoary hair.
(2) It was read both in public and in private by the Jews wherever they were dispersed.
(3) The apostles and evangelists used it in quoting many Old Testament passages, and consecrated it, so to speak, by their writings.
(4) The apostles gave it to the church, when through it they conquered the world for Christ, and so the Gentile church was born through it, and nourished by this milk.
(5) The church, both Greek and Latin, used it as the common version (pro vulgata) for six hundred years.
(6) The old fathers and ecclesiastical writers explained it in commentaries, taught it to the people in homilies, and strangled the rising heresies with it, and drew from it, in councils, canons for the direction of faith and conduct. But it must be asked whether this authority is such that it ought be regarded as authentic and on a par with the sources, which our adversaries teach and we deny.
VI. The reasons are
(1) it was composed by human effort, not by inspired men; its authors were interpreters, not prophets, who lived after Malachi, who is called by the Jews the seal of the prophets. This is clear from Aristeas's testimony that the translators conferred with one another, and discussed everything among themselves until they were all in agreement. But if they conferred among themselves, they did not prophesy, for the sacred writers never conferred with others, but put everything into writing without discussion or delay.
(2) If they wrote by the breath of the Holy Spirit, their number was excessive, when one would have been enough, nor was there any need of learned men, familiar with the Hebrew and Greek tongues, if the work was done without study and without human effort.
(3) In many ways it does not agree with the sources, but contains a number of discrepancies, as is shown by those who have discussed this argument, so that Morinus is forced to admit, "No more authority can be ascribed to this version than to others made by human endeavor."
(4) Because it does not now exist in a pure state, but with corruption and interpolation to a great degree, we have only its debris and remnants, and today it can hardly be called the Septuagint version; it is like the ship Argo which was so often rebuilt that it was no longer either the same or something other, as Jerome often remarked (epistle 69, to Augustine; prefaces to Ezra and Chronicles). So today it is confidently maintained among the learned that it is from the koinh version that may be called "Lucianic," on the authority of Jerome (epistle to Sunias and Fretellas).

VII. If the apostles often made use of this version, they did not do so because they believed that it was authentic and of divine quality, but because at that time it was most widely used and accepted, and because, where the meaning and truth are plain, they did not wish to stir up controversy or arouse scruples among the weak, but they left unchanged by a holy economy whatever, if changed, would have offended, especially when no change of meaning was involved. They did not [make changes] except where there was a reason. When the Septuagint is not only awkward, but also out of harmony with the truth, they used the sources in preference to it, as Jerome notes (Contra Ruffinan, book 2) and as can easily be seen by comparing Matthew 2:15 with Hosea 11:1; John 19:37 with Zechariah 12:10; Jeremiah 31:15 with Matthew 2:18; Isaiah 25:8 with I Corinthians 15:54, and many other passages.

VIII. The evidences (testimonia) which are brought forward in the New Testament from the Septuagint are authentic, not in themselves, or because they were translated by the seventy from Hebrew into Greek; but in their situation (per accidens) as approved and sanctified by the Holy Spirit by means of his inbreathing (afflatus), they were employed by the evangelists in the sacred narrative.

IX. If many of the patristic writers gave high honor to this version, and asserted its authenticity, as it cannot be denied that Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Augustine, and others were inclined to do, this was from feeling (affectus) rather than from reflection (studium). They were unlearned in the Hebrew language; nor were they obliged to judge the words [of the seventy], since no less than the seventy were they subject to human errors and feelings. But the more learned among them, such as Origen and Jerome, were of very different opinion, and taught that [the seventy] were translators, not prophets.

X. Although the church used this version for many years, it does not follow that it used it as authentic and of divine quality, but only that it was held in great esteem. This common usage ought not to weaken the - freedom of consulting the sources when there is reason to do so.

XI. The great discrepancies in chronology which occur between the Hebrew text and the Septuagint do not suggest the authenticity of the latter but its corruption. . . .
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/turretin/chap14.html
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Don't care to debate either way, but I do know the Bible contains everything we need to know to trust Christ alone for our salvation, and to know the assurance of our salvation, and to know how to grow in our salvation. What can wash away my sin? Nothing but the blood of Jesus. Trusting anything more, or adding anything more than simple trust in the death of Jesus to save a person, be it going back under certain Jewish laws like circumcision, or keeping holy days and feasts, or belonging to a 'certain' church, (there were many churches, in many towns, yet we are all the church, the body of Christ) or trusting in your good works or certain ceremonies or sacraments or anything else in addition to simple faith is "another gospel", and Paul (in Galations)was very grieved that folks would be so soon removed from their simple message how that Christ died, was buried, and rose again the third day for remission of sins, that whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. The jailer asked what he must do to be saved, and they said to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Period.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You said:
The jailer asked what he must do to be saved, and they said to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Period.

But wait! you just previously said:
What can wash away my sin? Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

If nothing but the blood of Jesus can wash away sin (save you), then how does belief play a role in that? Belief is not the blood of Jesus.

You're making two different statements of faith from two different sources. One is a Biblical quotation. The other is a quote from a hymn, which is part of...the Tradition. Perhaps sola scriptura isn't enough.
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
No, the Bible CLEARLY teaches that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ. That the blood of Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness:

Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Ephesians 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Colossians 1:14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself;
Hebrews 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.


You see how the above verses show we are made righteous by the BLOOD of Christ? How does that work? We have faith in, we trust in Christ, in who He said He was, and what He did; He said He came to die, as the wages of sin is death, He died for all of us, therefore His BLOOD washes away our sins. When we believe what He said and did for us is sufficient, Isaiah says God was 'satisfied' with the payment, then we trust in Him, in His death and His shed blood for remission of our sins and we are saved, saved to the uttermost. We believed and the blood was applied.

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

You see by the above, we heard the gospel, then we believed, we trusted in what Christ did, paying our sin debt for us. When He died, He bled, this is what the Bible teaches, it says there is NO remission of sins but by the SHEDDING OF BLOOD. So the blood is in there too. But the wages of sin is death, and Christ paid that, He died. The Bible teaches them together, its not too hard to see, is it?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
the Bible CLEARLY teaches that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ.

That text can also be translated that we are saved by grace through the faith of Christ.

That means that Paul may have considered it to be Christ's faith that saves us...not our faith.

The Bible isn't so clear, after all. We need other revelations of Christ, beyond scripture, to inform our spiritual work. Sola scriptura doesn't allow for this.
 

yuvgotmel

Well-Known Member
joeboonda said:
No, the Bible CLEARLY teaches that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ. That the blood of Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness:

Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Ephesians 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Colossians 1:14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself;
Hebrews 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.


You see how the above verses show we are made righteous by the BLOOD of Christ? How does that work? We have faith in, we trust in Christ, in who He said He was, and what He did; He said He came to die, as the wages of sin is death, He died for all of us, therefore His BLOOD washes away our sins. When we believe what He said and did for us is sufficient, Isaiah says God was 'satisfied' with the payment, then we trust in Him, in His death and His shed blood for remission of our sins and we are saved, saved to the uttermost. We believed and the blood was applied.

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

You see by the above, we heard the gospel, then we believed, we trusted in what Christ did, paying our sin debt for us. When He died, He bled, this is what the Bible teaches, it says there is NO remission of sins but by the SHEDDING OF BLOOD. So the blood is in there too. But the wages of sin is death, and Christ paid that, He died. The Bible teaches them together, its not too hard to see, is it?
(cough cough) ....Again... my point is proven to be correct. :D

:cool:

:clap

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47034
 

Lindsey-Loo

Steel Magnolia
Afraid not. You have fewer books than I do, for instance, and some that you do have a shortened. You have one Psalm less than we do and those you do have are differently numbered. You use a post-Christian Hebrew text as the basis for your OT whereas we take a pre-Christian Greek translation (and there are some important differences - as the DSS have shown us, they're from different Scriptural traditions).

What version of the Bible do you use?

And what parts of your Bible are contradictory to the standard Bible (that's the king james version, folks :p )?

But why? And does that mean that it is necessarily not inspired?

For me, yes. Because I have faith that everything God wants in the Bible would be in there.

How about, why did the inventors of sola scriptura remove books from the canon? Under what authority and what does this do to their claim to hold to the canon of Scripture as sole authority? If you want an example of such a book, why not look in your Bible and tell me if you can find 1 Maccabees.

I don't know.

I don't have a 1 Maccabees in my Bible. I guess I'll need to ask my evangelist all of this stuff to get a second opinion. I didn't even have time to read the rest of ya'll's posts, I'm about to leave, I can only reply to this one! Sorry! :(
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
*Paul* said:
I set down a challenge which no on took up here:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44589&page=9

Posts 86,88 & 89

Only to be indirectly insulted by MadLlama in post 126

But i'll happily post it again here and we can debate it.

From your Post # 89 you said:

"t cannot be proven that the traditions that the apostles held were not also written in scripture at some point."

My response:

You are incorrect my good brother! St John himself taught his community tradtions that were not written in scripture that were to be held to. Consider this passage:

"I have much to write to you, but I would rather not write with pen and ink;
I hope to see you soon, and we will talk together face to face." (3 John :13-14)

Also Paul talks about the same thing in 2 thess 2:15

"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter".

Nothing in here says that all tradtions were written down. Rather we are to hold fast to them whether they be written or orally passed down!

You yourself hold to authoritative Oral tradition that is not found int he bible. You believe in the new testament canon which is a oral tradition not found in scripture! Doesn't this just prove sola scriptura to be false on a practicle level? Becuase in order to even know the new testmanet canon you need to rely on tradition outside of the bible itself and the Catholic councils which gave it to you(Rome 382, Hippo 393, Carthage 397, Florence 1439 etc). There is no passage in scripture that gives us what the new testmant canon is. That was a oral tradition of the Apostles handed down to the church that was formallly looked over and decided in the late 4th century by Catholic fathers, and Popes and councils. So so much for that challenge!
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
athanasius said:
From your Post # 89 you said:

"t cannot be proven that the traditions that the apostles held were not also written in scripture at some point."

My response:

You are incorrect my good brother! St John himself taught his community tradtions that were not written in scripture that were to be held to. Consider this passage:

"I have much to write to you, but I would rather not write with pen and ink;
I hope to see you soon, and we will talk together face to face." (3 John :13-14)

Also Paul talks about the same thing in 2 thess 2:15

"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter".

Nothing in here says that all tradtions were written down. Rather we are to hold fast to them whether they be written or orally passed down!

You yourself hold to authoritative Oral tradition that is not found int he bible. You believe in the new testament canon which is a oral tradition not found in scripture! Doesn't this just prove sola scriptura to be false on a practicle level? Becuase in order to even know the new testmanet canon you need to rely on tradition outside of the bible itself and the Catholic councils which gave it to you(Rome 382, Hippo 393, Carthage 397, Florence 1439 etc). There is no passage in scripture that gives us what the new testmant canon is. That was a oral tradition of the Apostles handed down to the church that was formallly looked over and decided in the late 4th century by Catholic fathers, and Popes and councils. So so much for that challenge!

Amen! Hopefully he can realize that he himself comes from a tradition that is incompatible with history. Who is that said: "To look deep into history is to seize to be Protestant"
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
*Paul* said:
We use the same OT canon as the Jews did to whom were commited the oracles of God..[/B]

Not all the Jews used your old testmant canon. Many Jews, including the Apostles and Jesus also used the Septuagint Greek Canon of the old testament. As a matter of fact bible scholars tell us that out of 350 quotations from the old testmant used by Jesus in the new, 300 are taken from the Septuagint

Paul actually makes refernces to these too! It was Luther who canned them historically! the Councils that decided the canon like Rome 382, Hippo 393, and Carthage, 397 included all of these.
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
MaddLlama said:
Cardinal [SIZE=-1]John Henry Newman :yes:
[/SIZE]


I love me some Cardinal newmann!! A excellent convert to the Catholic church whio was protestant and who tried to historically disprove Catholicism and her doctrines and in the process of study he became convinced of the Catholics Churches truth :) One intelligent dude! and prolific writer. His studd on Mary as new eve is excellent and his studd on doctrinal development is great! Go Cardinal:liturgy: Go!
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
yuvgotmel said:
(cough cough) ....Again... my point is proven to be correct. :D

:cool:

:clap

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47034
He doesn't speak for all Christianity -- just for himself and his own interpretation of what scriptures actually say. You're discounting some 250 million other voices...still...

Regardless of a somewhat naive reading of these passages, Paul tells us in Romans that we are saved through the faith of Christ. That is, while Christ did bleed, it was not the blood (once again) that saves us, but what the blood represents. Therefore, it is not a ritual blood sacrifice, in the way blood sacrifices are understood. It was a self-sacrificial act of faith. Act of faith does not = blood sacrifice.

But...we digress.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
athanasius said:
I love me some Cardinal newmann!! A excellent convert to the Catholic church whio was protestant and who tried to historically disprove Catholicism and her doctrines and in the process of study he became convinced of the Catholics Churches truth :) One intelligent dude! and prolific writer. His studd on Mary as new eve is excellent and his studd on doctrinal development is great! Go Cardinal:liturgy: Go!

Here here! :)
 
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