The bible and slavery - please post direct passages from the bible that you believe support slavery.

[Subduction Zone]

This isn't my first rodeo. You literally say a version of this in the very next post.

Is it moral to own another human being as property?

For me yes, for you no. You see, I have this book . . .

 

[ChristineM]

For me yes, for you no. You see, I have this book . . .

Which book?

 

[Subduction Zone]

View attachment 71624

Which book?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The first bit about it not being what we think about as American and European chattel slavery is true, because race as a concept wasn't involved. Instead it was a strata of what would be modern interracial xenophobia and misogyny and classism frameworks for slavery. And an Israelite man from a family in good standinf would have a much different experience than say a Canaanite woman, or a Hittite child (on the few occasions children weren't purged in the genocides.)

But none of them would be like 'having a boss' in the same way debtors prison was not like 'having a job.' Because both those two concepts imply having a degree of agency that wasn't there.

Saying you can beat a slave as much as you want, just don't kill them and recovery is within a few days, because the salve is the masters property and money, permission to sell your wife and kids into slavery, forced body modifications on slaves, I fail to see how race is supposes to be a factor that makes it any different, especially when the Bible is clear who may be abducted and forced into slavery.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Is someone saying this? Because I'm not.

It pops up every now and then.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

See above post - for some reason, the KJV translates at least ten words or phrases describing various forms of servitude into the term "slave" or "slavery" which in today's culture implies chattel. Actually these phrases or words mean everything from "beloved house servant" to "field hand."

Which are still slaves. They aren't paid, they have no choice, no freedom, they must obey or be beaten. They are legally considered property.
Even house slaves are still slaves. And if slaves in ancient Israel were like American slaves, the field hands grew to hold resentments against house slaves, complete with their own slurs.

 

[Father Heathen]

Love between consenting adults = bad!

Slavery, rape, and abuse = good!

Now let's sing a song of praise.

 

[Father Heathen]

“If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days." - Deuteronomy 22:28-29

I.E. punish the victim by forcing them to marry their rapist, essentially becoming a sex slave.

Hallelujah.

 

[wellwisher]

I do not believe in revisionist history. I believe that slavery was fine in its time, and should not be judged by 20/20 hindsight, as though the people of old, knew the future. That is irrational.

When I look back at my life, I can see choices I made that I would not make today. But at the time, it seemed to be the right choice. There were still things in life to learn and nu body to decline, before my present insight appeared. I did not have that data back then, and made the right choice for then.

Slavery was this way. If you were in an army and just conquered a village, you can either kill everyone or take slaves. The Bible recommended both. Slavery in this context, was merciful and would require daily resources to feed everyone not killed. It would be cheaper and faster to kill them all, while the price of mercy will require work on your part, until the slaves can feed themselves, plus.

In the Bible one is told to treat the slaves with dignity, since many slaves were once hard working citizens in their old country and became a slave to escape death. In the parable of the sensible slave, the sensible slave was put in charge of all the masters possession. He was not a nobody but may have been a successful businessman before he was enslaved. Who also show great respect for his new master.

The Jews were slaves to Egypt. This helped the Jews evolve being immerse in a first world ancient culture. The Jews were skilled stone workers and would help the Egyptian cu stone and build the pyramids. A slave did not mean a lowly human, but more like someone who was a regular Joes and victim of war, taken as a slave instead of being put to death.

Moses, who was the child of a Jewish slave, would learn from this pinnacle culture, in the halls of Pharaoh. He would use that exposure to help the Jewish slaves become free. He had developed respect. One day the Jews would prosper since the lessons learned were useful.

God often put the Jews into slavery, to give them a time out, and help them return to their faith. But in the end, their slavery did not lead to a hole that could never be exited.

 

[Father Heathen]

I do not believe in revisionist history. I believe that slavery was fine in its time, and should not be judged by 20/20 hindsight, as though the people of old, knew the future. That is irrational.

When I look back at my life, I can see choices I made that I would not make today. But at the time, it seemed to be the right choice. There were still things in life to learn and nu body to decline, before my present insight appeared. I did not have that data back then, and made the right choice for then.

Slavery was this way. If you were in an army and just conquered a village, you can either kill everyone or take slaves. The Bible recommended both. Slavery in this context, was merciful and would require daily resources to feed everyone not killed. It would be cheaper and faster to kill them all, while the price of mercy will require work on your part, until the slaves can feed themselves, plus.

In the Bible one is told to treat the slaves with dignity, since many slaves were once hard working citizens in their old country and became a slave to escape death. In the parable of the sensible slave, the sensible slave was put in charge of all the masters possession. He was not a nobody but may have been a successful businessman before he was enslaved. Who also show great respect for his new master.

The Jews were slaves to Egypt. This helped the Jews evolve being immerse in a first world ancient culture. The Jews were skilled stone workers and would help the Egyptian cu stone and build the pyramids. A slave did not mean a lowly human, but more like someone who was a regular Joes and victim of war, taken as a slave instead of being put to death.

Moses, who was the child of a Jewish slave, would learn from this pinnacle culture, in the halls of Pharaoh. He would use that exposure to help the Jewish slaves become free. He had developed respect. One day the Jews would prosper since the lessons learned were useful.

God often put the Jews into slavery, to give them a time out, and help them return to their faith. But in the end, their slavery did not lead to a hole that could never be exited.

So you admit that moral standards can change/evolve with time?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Love between consenting adults = bad!

Slavery, rape, and abuse = good!

Now let's sing a song of praise.

It doesn't really work like this if we take Jesus' words into account, but I still like that song "The Loophole" by Garfunkel and Oates. It is a bit vulgar if you go looking, and probably not something to play around the kids, lol.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I do not believe in revisionist history. I believe that slavery was fine in its time, and should not be judged by 20/20 hindsight, as though the people of old, knew the future. That is irrational.

When I look back at my life, I can see choices I made that I would not make today. But at the time, it seemed to be the right choice. There were still things in life to learn and nu body to decline, before my present insight appeared. I did not have that data back then, and made the right choice for then.

Slavery was this way. If you were in an army and just conquered a village, you can either kill everyone or take slaves. The Bible recommended both. Slavery in this context, was merciful and would require daily resources to feed everyone not killed. It would be cheaper and faster to kill them all, while the price of mercy will require work on your part, until the slaves can feed themselves, plus.

In the Bible one is told to treat the slaves with dignity, since many slaves were once hard working citizens in their old country and became a slave to escape death. In the parable of the sensible slave, the sensible slave was put in charge of all the masters possession. He was not a nobody but may have been a successful businessman before he was enslaved. Who also show great respect for his new master.

The Jews were slaves to Egypt. This helped the Jews evolve being immerse in a first world ancient culture. The Jews were skilled stone workers and would help the Egyptian cu stone and build the pyramids. A slave did not mean a lowly human, but more like someone who was a regular Joes and victim of war, taken as a slave instead of being put to death.

Moses, who was the child of a Jewish slave, would learn from this pinnacle culture, in the halls of Pharaoh. He would use that exposure to help the Jewish slaves become free. He had developed respect. One day the Jews would prosper since the lessons learned were useful.

God often put the Jews into slavery, to give them a time out, and help them return to their faith. But in the end, their slavery did not lead to a hole that could never be exited.

Sounds like some apologist garbage to me. Slavery is never ok. Those things you did back then you thought were right but weren't? They weren't right just because you thought differently and are wrong now and were wrong then. Fortunately over the centuries many realized it was wrong--even back then--and progress has been made to where today slavery is nearly universally condemned and prohibited.

 

[Kathryn]

This isn't my first rodeo. You literally say a version of this in the very next post.

Is it moral to own another human being as property?

LOL it's not my first rodeo either and no I definitely did not say anything like what you said I said - LOL.

 

[Kathryn]

As the saying goes, none are so blind as those that do not see.

And the wording is a bit vague. How are they counting years? If they do not count a year until it is completely over then the person must only be released sometime in his seventh year. Might as well be the 364th day of that year.

But as to the obvious trickery. An experienced slave owner gets a temporary worker that is top notch. He recognizes talent. The person is also a decent human being. He "gives" the worker a wife. They have kids. Now it is the end of his stint. He is about take his wife and kids and go. But he can't. That may be "his wife". But she is the slave owner's properly. So are the kids. A decent human being will not abandon his wife and kids. He will opt for life long slavery.

You act like this wasn't common knowledge.

 

[Kathryn]

Which are still slaves. They aren't paid, they have no choice, no freedom, they must obey or be beaten. They are legally considered property.
Even house slaves are still slaves. And if slaves in ancient Israel were like American slaves, the field hands grew to hold resentments against house slaves, complete with their own slurs.

You are leaving out voluntary servitude. It was really, really a thing. So no, a beloved house servant is not the same thing as a field hand. I'm not saying either is right - I'm just saying it's not the same thing.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You act like this wasn't common knowledge.

Your response indicated that it was not.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You are leaving out voluntary servitude. It was really, really a thing. So no, a beloved house servant is not the same thing as a field hand. I'm not saying either is right - I'm just saying it's not the same thing.

Voluntary servitude is just a nice way of saying exploitation in an inhumane system.

 

[Kathryn]

Your response indicated that it was not.

Wow, you really, really are trying to stuff words in my mouth, that you sincerely wish I was saying. Thank goodness, wishing something is true doesn't make it true.

 

[Kathryn]

Voluntary servitude is just a nice way of saying exploitation in an inhumane system.

Is it right to judge past societies by 21st century standards?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Wow, you really, really are trying to stuff words in my mouth, that you sincerely wish I was saying. Thank goodness, wishing something is true doesn't make it true.

No, you asked where the trickery was. I thought that it was rather obvious when I posted the verses. Now you seem to be claiming that you were on to the trickery from the start. Which one is it?