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The Bible and the Unborn

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Here is an abortion parallel that nobody may have heard. It came to me the other day.

If you were a slave owner, before the Emancipation Proclamation, you were like a mini-monarch, in the sense of having the power of life and death over your slaves. He/She; slaves, were considered property, and not a human being with any human rights. The slave could be treated the same as owning a horse or plow. The owner of that property could do as they wished, with their property; temper tantrum, since property was not defined or considered human, but rather just property.

The contemporary mantra of a women's right to choose, due to a women owning her body, including the unborn is a parallel to the plantation owner and slavery. The female power of life and death over the unborn; property rights, is very similar, in outcome to a new form of slave owner bill of rights. In this scenario, immature humans are considered property, secondary to the needs of the plantation owner, with women entitled with the power over life and death, like before the Emancipation Proclamation.

I thought the Left was against the concept of slavery and human ownership, due to the idea of human rights. These apply to all, regardless of race, color, creed and social status, and supersede the human ownership of human based property. The state is freeing of new generation of slaves.

The Bible speaks of slaves, as a part of culture, due to war and conquest; political battles and the spoils of war. However, it also had certain rules for treating slaves with dignity. One was supposed to show respect for another human, even if of lower social status.

This change in the human condition, was almost like the Southern Democrats had successfully formed their own country; the south will rise again, where the nee slavery of the unborn became a legal part of life, seen as property with no human rights.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Besides the verses I mentioned? Well, there is the Test of an Unfaithful Wife.

Sorry, I think Exodus 21 22-23 only confirms that abortion is wrong, because it tells, if woman gives birth prematurely and the baby dies, the judgment should be life for life.

“If men fight and hurt a pregnant woman so that she gives birth prematurely, and yet no harm follows, he shall be surely fined as much as the woman’s husband demands and the judges allow. But if any harm follows, then you must take life for life,
Exodus 21 22-23 (World English translation)

And the test of unfaithful wife doesn't really support you in this case, sorry.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Knowingly "revising" the Bible to make it say what you want it to say would instantly open an immense debate on how that can possibly still be considered "God's Word." Since this time the revision(s) would be clearly seen to be man's.
Sure... barring the possibility that the person doing the revisions proclaims themselves a prophet inspired by God or whatever.

Anyhow: I was addressing the immediate "problem": Christian anti-choicers want to both condemn abortion and also say that their positions accord with the Bible, but the Bible doesn't really condemn abortion.

Revising the Bible would address that issue, but I never suggested that doing this wouldn't create issues of its own.

Personally, I'd prefer if they just took their lead from the Bible they have and cooled it with the anti-choice nonsense.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Here is an abortion parallel that nobody may have heard. It came to me the other day.

If you were a slave owner, before the Emancipation Proclamation, you were like a mini-monarch, in the sense of having the power of life and death over your slaves. He/She; slaves, were considered property, and not a human being with any human rights. The slave could be treated the same as owning a horse or plow. The owner of that property could do as they wished, with their property; temper tantrum, since property was not defined or considered human, but rather just property.

The contemporary mantra of a women's right to choose, due to a women owning her body, including the unborn is a parallel to the plantation owner and slavery. The female power of life and death over the unborn; property rights, is very similar, in outcome to a new form of slave owner bill of rights. In this scenario, immature humans are considered property, secondary to the needs of the plantation owner, with women entitled with the power over life and death, like before the Emancipation Proclamation.

I thought the Left was against the concept of slavery and human ownership, due to the idea of human rights. These apply to all, regardless of race, color, creed and social status, and supersede the human ownership of human based property. The state is freeing of new generation of slaves.

The Bible speaks of slaves, as a part of culture, due to war and conquest; political battles and the spoils of war. However, it also had certain rules for treating slaves with dignity. One was supposed to show respect for another human, even if of lower social status.

This change in the human condition, was almost like the Southern Democrats had successfully formed their own country; the south will rise again, where the nee slavery of the unborn became a legal part of life, seen as property with no human rights.
Ahh but on the flip side, a pregnancy carries with it significant strain on the body. And that’s the healthy ones. Indeed pregnancy can be life threatening in various scenarios. Causing a balance of power in a way (to use your parallel.)
A fetus has the ability to literally cause the death of the person carrying said fetus. Is that not also an incredible power of authority over another individual?
I’d say both entities in pregnancy are roughly on equal playing field.

As to the OP, I don’t think the Bible should be changed. But I have noticed that there appears to be preachers on both sides of the abortion debate and both use the Bible as justification of their beliefs. Which I mean that’s their right of course. Freedom of religion and all that. Just an observation
 

Bree

Active Member
Parts do, but mostly it doesn't.

The mosiac law was clear that the unborn had the same rights as the living.

If the mosaic law stated it, then it was the understanding of the entire nation for all time that the unborn had rights. It didnt need to be repeated in every other writing
 

Sand Dancer

Currently catless
The mosiac law was clear that the unborn had the same rights as the living.

If the mosaic law stated it, then it was the understanding of the entire nation for all time that the unborn had rights. It didnt need to be repeated in every other writing

Well, the Bible should really be clear on this, but it's not. In Jewish law, a baby wasn't seen as viable until 30 days after BIRTH. Weird, but hey, I didn't make the rules, some old dudes did.
 

Bree

Active Member
Well, the Bible should really be clear on this, but it's not. In Jewish law, a baby wasn't seen as viable until 30 days after BIRTH. Weird, but hey, I didn't make the rules, some old dudes did.

those old dudes were creating their own rules .... the mosaic law was instituted by God. The Talmud and other rabbinical writings and rules were not.

So if you look at how God viewed the unborn baby, it clearly saw them as living individuals with rights. He wrote laws to protect them and even laws that, if an unborn baby was harmed, those who harmed it could be put to death.

Exodus 21:22-25 (AS): “If men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow; he shall be surely fined, according as the woman’s husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”


So imagine how he feels about the very deliberate act of harming an unborn baby, abortion!
 

Sand Dancer

Currently catless
those old dudes were creating their own rules .... the mosaic law was instituted by God. The Talmud and other rabbinical writings and rules were not.

So if you look at how God viewed the unborn baby, it clearly saw them as living individuals with rights. He wrote laws to protect them and even laws that, if an unborn baby was harmed, those who harmed it could be put to death.

Exodus 21:22-25 (AS): “If men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow; he shall be surely fined, according as the woman’s husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”


So imagine how he feels about the very deliberate act of harming an unborn baby, abortion!

Strange how he killed so many in the OT though. The Bible isn't anti-abortion.
 

Bree

Active Member
Strange how he killed so many in the OT though. The Bible isn't anti-abortion.

the Isrealites were surrounded by nations intent on killing them. God allowed Isreal to go to war true....but it wasnt because he was starting wars it was in order to protect his people.

If the other nations were peaceful, there would not have been wars.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Sorry, I think Exodus 21 22-23 only confirms that abortion is wrong, because it tells, if woman gives birth prematurely and the baby dies, the judgment should be life for life.

“If men fight and hurt a pregnant woman so that she gives birth prematurely, and yet no harm follows, he shall be surely fined as much as the woman’s husband demands and the judges allow. But if any harm follows, then you must take life for life,
Exodus 21 22-23 (World English translation)

And the test of unfaithful wife doesn't really support you in this case, sorry.
You are using a post Roe v Wade translation. If one finds a US translation from before then it tends to use the word "miscarriage" telling you that the incident ended her pregnancy and there were no children. My housemate's Catholic Bible, a very very antiabortion church from the 1960's uses the word "miscarriage". It was the legalization of abortion that caused many US translations to change.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The mosiac law was clear that the unborn had the same rights as the living.

If the mosaic law stated it, then it was the understanding of the entire nation for all time that the unborn had rights. It didnt need to be repeated in every other writing
Where does it state that? Please, no vague verses about a specific person. And forget about Exodus 21 22. And of course one can't forget the Test of an Unfaithful Wife in Numbers where a priest does a chemical abortion. Or that a person had no monetary worth until some time after birth in the Old Testament. There appear to be far more verses that I can think of that tell us that an abortion is not sin then ones that say it is wrong.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
If everyone made a time and place to shut off reading.

Go and sit in a quiet place and think about yourself only. Would you know yourself?

Why do you need a book to quantify right from wrong in family human extended family human.

When even science said owning the first two human being parent. Was the same type of human all of us came from.

Type of human meaning two parents. Lots of them as human brother sisters. Same DNA type first?

Is that difficult to say a human is my family I'm related?

Then from that position write what you'd expect from them in a shared community and claim it legal rights.

Without having to make a legal claim anywhere.

Except legal as legal depiction legal for legal as a legal document.

Natural sex. Does it carry babies in life full term?

Not always.

Not controlled...just happens. We mourn.

Abortion. Are you angry humans don't mourn the lost life of the baby?

Adoption. It's not yours first legally.

Adoption as an answer.....pregnant woman has to be 100 per cent supported. Versus abortion.

Raped and pregnancy not wanted. Man should be made sterile for legal reasons.

Laws and legal.

God humans claim owns any created circumstance.

Why they said legal applied to God by terms what God created.

God he said gave man sperm. It's only in his body.

God he said gave woman ovaries. Only in her body.

Legal inferences.

God didn't ask a human to have sex was a legal term.

It was human choice it said.
 
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