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The bible is a poor source for moral guidance

Unification

Unification

Well-Known Member
Right lane said:
As I commented above, this view Seems to suggest it doesn't matter what the bible actually says. Instead, what matters is what I want it to mean. Then the words on the pages are not really the word of God, carved in stone, unwavering truths. Rather, They are as subjective and maliabe as there are people who read them and decide what they "really" mean...for them, ... to suit their personal needs.
Click to expand...

One spiritual objective truth.
 
CMike

CMike

Well-Known Member
Right lane said:
According to Christianity, there is only one god, he is perfect, and bible morality is absolute. In fact, it is literally carved in stone. The problem with this is that we have one god setting out laws in the Old Testament for one group of people in one time, yet the same god setting out a different set of laws in the New Testament for a different people in a different time.

Which is true and correct ? It seems gods laws are relative, and change with the times.

God says "thou shalt not kill", yet he sets out to kill men, women, children, unborn babies, and even animals. Also, he commands us to kill our family if they worship other gods. Well, ? What is it ? Is killing bad or is it sometimes justified ? Is killing's sinful nature absolute or does it depend on the circumstances ?

According to genesis, the entire world was populated by just one man and one woman. How could that possibly happen without some serious incest going on and "god only knows" what other sexual situations must have happened.

A casual read of the bible leaves one with the impression that god has no problem with polygamy or slavery. Neither made his top ten list of thou shalt not's.

In the bible, god resorts to murder, rape, and eternal torture to punish those who have displeased him for various reasons. In the 2 Samuel story, god has a woman raped in public to punish her husband who has angered him. Is it moral to punish someone for the actions of another person ?

Likewise, The Adam and Eve story tells us that all future generations who did not commit the original "sin" must be punished for the "sin" of two people from the distant past. Is that just ?

On the other hand, the Jesus story tells us that the sins of the guilty may be absolved by punishing the innocent. So the message is, "you are guilty of a sin ?, no problem, we will punish someone else and that will take care of it". Are these really the lessons of morality to teach our children?

The fact is, there is more moral relativism in the bible than in secular society.

So, what morality does the bible provide that cannot be achieved without it ?
Click to expand...

G-D didn't say don't kill, he said don't murder. That's a big difference.
 
Stevicus

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
CMike said:
G-D didn't say don't kill, he said don't murder. That's a big difference.
Click to expand...

How does one define "murder" in this context? Is there some universal definition which applies for all time, or would it be based on the secular laws in existence at the time and place an alleged murder was committed? For example, in previous eras in societies where slavery was legal and it was legal for a slavemaster to kill one of his slaves, would that then be considered "murder"? Or what about an executioner carrying out capital punishment on behalf of the state? If it's legal under the laws and jurisdiction of where and when it took place, then would that be taken into consideration?
 
R

Right lane

Member
CMike said:
G-D didn't say don't kill, he said don't murder. That's a big difference.
Click to expand...


That depends upon which version of the bible you are referring to. Regardless, Killing is killing, dead is dead. So, weather killing is a "sin" or OK depends on the circumstances. Therefore, whether a given act is Immoral or not is not an absolute truth, rather, it is RELATIVE to the circumstances. Therefore the bible is not a source of absolute morality as often claimed.
 
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McBell

McBell

Admiral Obvious
Stevicus said:
How does one define "murder" in this context? Is there some universal definition which applies for all time, or would it be based on the secular laws in existence at the time and place an alleged murder was committed? For example, in previous eras in societies where slavery was legal and it was legal for a slavemaster to kill one of his slaves, would that then be considered "murder"? Or what about an executioner carrying out capital punishment on behalf of the state? If it's legal under the laws and jurisdiction of where and when it took place, then would that be taken into consideration?
Click to expand...
Murder is usually defined as "a wrongful/unlawful killing".
 
McBell

McBell

Admiral Obvious
Mestemia said:
I agree.
however, use of the word murder in place of killing adds the wrongful/unlawful element that the word killing does not
Click to expand...

Much like the phrase "one size fits all" the phrase "killing is wrong" is an incomplete statement.
 
McBell

McBell

Admiral Obvious
Right lane said:
According to Christianity, there is only one god, he is perfect, and bible morality is absolute. In fact, it is literally carved in stone. The problem with this is that we have one god setting out laws in the Old Testament for one group of people in one time, yet the same god setting out a different set of laws in the New Testament for a different people in a different time.

Which is true and correct ? It seems gods laws are relative, and change with the times.

God says "thou shalt not kill", yet he sets out to kill men, women, children, unborn babies, and even animals. Also, he commands us to kill our family if they worship other gods. Well, ? What is it ? Is killing bad or is it sometimes justified ? Is killing's sinful nature absolute or does it depend on the circumstances ?

According to genesis, the entire world was populated by just one man and one woman. How could that possibly happen without some serious incest going on and "god only knows" what other sexual situations must have happened.

A casual read of the bible leaves one with the impression that god has no problem with polygamy or slavery. Neither made his top ten list of thou shalt not's.

In the bible, god resorts to murder, rape, and eternal torture to punish those who have displeased him for various reasons. In the 2 Samuel story, god has a woman raped in public to punish her husband who has angered him. Is it moral to punish someone for the actions of another person ?

Likewise, The Adam and Eve story tells us that all future generations who did not commit the original "sin" must be punished for the "sin" of two people from the distant past. Is that just ?

On the other hand, the Jesus story tells us that the sins of the guilty may be absolved by punishing the innocent. So the message is, "you are guilty of a sin ?, no problem, we will punish someone else and that will take care of it". Are these really the lessons of morality to teach our children?

The fact is, there is more moral relativism in the bible than in secular society.

So, what morality does the bible provide that cannot be achieved without it ?
Click to expand...
Seems to me you are counting the hits and ignoring the misses.
 
McBell

McBell

Admiral Obvious
psychoslice said:
I know there is some good in the bible, but that is only if you cherry pick, its either you believe in all the bible or you just believe in the parts that you yourself like to read, so in that, the bible isn't a good source.
Click to expand...
False dichotomy.
One can count the hits and ignore the misses.
 
R

Right lane

Member
Mestemia said:
Seems to me you are counting the hits and ignoring the misses.
Click to expand...

Well, if the bible is "the word of God", and God is perfect, incapable error, there should be NO misses. The existence of misses in some cases opens the possibility of misses in other places. This contradicts the notion that the bible is an infallible, absolute source of morality. It also opens moral proclamations based on the bible open to legitimate challenge.
 
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McBell

McBell

Admiral Obvious
Right lane said:
Well, if the bible is "the word of God", and God is perfect, incapable error, there should be NO misses. The existence of misses in some cases opens the possibility of misses in other places. This contradicts the notion that the bible is an infallible, absolute source of morality. It also opens proclamations based on the bible open to legitimate challenge.
Click to expand...
Interesting bait and switch.
So you are wanting to discuss the claimed "absolute" morality of the Bible?
 
R

Right lane

Member
Mestemia said:
Interesting bait and switch.
So you are wanting to discuss the claimed "absolute" morality of the Bible?
Click to expand...

It's not really a bait and switch. The sentence following the introductory paragraph of my initial post alludes to moral relativism in the bible. The second to last sentence addresses it directly.

I suppose a second theme is what appears to be immoral circumstances and messages in the bible, like the innocent can be punished to pay for the acts of the guilty, or killing men, women, and children on a global scale.

Given its track record, how can the bible be claimed to be THE authoritative source for morality ?
 
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McBell

McBell

Admiral Obvious
Right lane said:
It's not really a bait and switch. The first paragraph of my initial post alludes to moral relativism in the bible. The second to last sentence addresses it directly.

I suppose a second theme is what appears to be immoral circumstances and messages in the bible, like the innocent can be punished to pay for the acts of the guilty.

Given these issues, how can the bible be claimed to be THE authoritative source for morality ?
Click to expand...
You went from "bible is poor source for morals" to how can bible be "THE authoritative source for morality".
 
Saint Frankenstein

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Right lane said:
As I commented above, this view Seems to suggest it doesn't matter what the bible actually says. Instead, what matters is what I want it to mean. Then the words on the pages are not really the word of God, carved in stone, unwavering truths. Rather, They are as subjective and maliabe as there are people who read them and decide what they "really" mean...for them, ... to suit their personal needs.
Click to expand...
I have no idea why you're replying to me. I'm not interested in your Bible bashing ignorant thread. I just thought that post was interesting.
 
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