The Bible - Why Trust It

[halbhh]

Actually the Hebrews lifted the story from an older myth.

I think there would be good reasons to assert a largest ever flood as experience by modern humans would be at most what we (modern people) would call a regional flood.

Of course, when the view all the way to the horizon is only water, and every local hill you called 'mount' 'this or that' is submerged, it would indeed be 'all the world' you could see. Just one possibility. (not that I could not imagine other possibilities, as I've read more than just a bit of science articles about ideas of how water arrived on earth such as by comets, so one could even wonder what kind of massive flood a low angle water comet hitting a deep ocean might cause (putting a gigantic amount of suddenly vaporized water into the atmosphere....) though it's getting more speculative, etc., but this one is still pretty easy to imagine to simply be "all the world" they knew and could see). If we want to talk about a 'myth' probably we'd usually not be talking about merely a natural event like an earthquake or flood tho.

But, just fyi, if you care, I always thought of it as a parable. A parable, perhaps you know, is a made up story meant to convey something else that is deeper and more important than the superficial details and setting of the parable.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I think there would be good reasons to assert a largest ever flood as experience by modern humans would be at most what we (modern people) would call a regional flood.

Of course, when the view all the way to the horizon is only water, and every local hill you called 'mount' 'this or that' is submerged, it would indeed be 'all the world' you could see. Just one possibility. (not that I could not imagine other possibilities, as I've read more than just a bit of science articles about ideas of how water arrived on earth such as by comets, so one could even wonder what kind of massive flood a low angle water comet hitting a deep ocean might cause (putting a gigantic amount of suddenly vaporized water into the atmosphere....) though it's getting more speculative, etc., but this one is still pretty easy to imagine to simply be "all the world" they knew and could see). If we want to talk about a 'myth' probably we'd usually not be talking about merely a natural event like an earthquake or flood tho.

But, just fyi, if you care, I always thought of it as a parable. A parable, perhaps you know, is a made up story meant to convey something else that is deeper and more important than the superficial details and setting of the parable.

There was a flood i the area, though quite a while before the Noah timeline as given in the Bible. It was on a vast flood plain. No hills to be seen. But it was large enough so that if one was in the middle of it all one would see was water.

Very often myths are based upon real world events.

And the story works as a morality tale. Some Christians insist that it has to be read literally.

 

[halbhh]

There was a flood i the area, though quite a while before the Noah timeline as given in the Bible. It was on a vast flood plain. No hills to be seen. But it was large enough so that if one was in the middle of it all one would see was water.

Very often myths are based upon real world events.

And the story works as a morality tale. Some Christians insist that it has to be read literally.

And such long remembered, and gradually more and more myth-like recounting of ancient events of the foggy distant past could then be incorporated into a new story, sure, or an older version could be altered some, and put to use for a new meaning. I get it. There are many possibilities. I remember vaguely someone speculating an large ice dam on the black sea broke releasing a vast amount of flood water, etc. There are endless possibilities. After a while, those details though still scientifically interesting just because I like big events became for the bible story itself irrelevant for me, as the real interest is instead the meaning conveyed in the account, which one needs to read carefully in the first verses of the prelude to take in, verses 5-11 of chapter 6. It says things that overturn what a lot of people imagine God is supposed to be, in modern times, and also something about us humans that isn't easy to accept if you love to look on the bright side.

 

[sojourner]

Depends on your consideration of who qualify as doctors.

Anyone who’s licensed through the AMA.

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

I think you are having much difficulty understanding, but I'll try again, till I am certain you do.

I'm saying, a history book has been found with real people, places and events.
We are right as individuals to determine whether or not this book contains true history.
It has been discovered that this book does contain history of real people and places... and to the annoyance of many, real events.
For example... (this is just one of many)
Jehu - Wikipedia

Despite this, some have made up their minds that this book is fiction. On what basis? I suggest because it contains supernatural elements.
However, just claiming that comic books also contain places that we know are real, but the characters are fiction, is just a way to try to make an excuse not to accept these facts.
The problem with that obvious strawman argument, is this... Comic books contain characters and events that have not been confirmed, and are known to be fictional. Unlike the Bible, which contains numerous characters and events which have been confirmed.
For example...
List of biblical figures identified in extra-biblical sources - Wikipedia

One may argue that in fictional literature and media events are staged - for example, the president of the US, being kidnapped, etc., but these staged event are not confirmed. The events in the Bible has been confirmed.

"Not all." You argue.
Well, so what? We don't expect to find everything in history.
No one complains about scientists saying the fossil record is incomplete... at least Bible bashers don't.

We don't expect to find the garments, and sandals Jesus wore. Nor can we confirm that Paul was beheaded, by finding his head, and DNA saying, "I belong to Paul", but time and again, we do find something that confirms the historical accounts in the Bible - Characters, events, places, culture, customs... and we can oftentimes trace this with, precise accuracy.

This is just one aspect, demonstrating the reliability, and authenticity of the Bible.
Strawman arguments, however, are not the proper way to determine the reliability of a document.
One must look at all the facts, which would either substantiate the claim of the document being reliable, or refute the claim.

So, we looked at the historical, and that has been confirmed.
Any objections, please state them now.

No you still applying your favoritism of the bible, because you ignoring all the supernatural claims in which you can't prove talking snakes etc and relying on historical claims to back up the bible. The spiderman analogy still holds up. Just because something has historical people places and events (Spiderman has a 9/11 issue) doesn't make it real.

 

[Nimos]

Are the activities associated with Chi, extraordinary claims?
Has there been evidence confirming these claims?
Is that evidence extraordinary? How so?

Im not really an expert in Chi and what claims you are referring to? Are you talking about tai chi and it being healthy? If that is the case I see nothing extraordinary about that. To me it seems much like doing exercising, just using a slightly different approach.

From what I could figure out, there have been some studies that confirms it as being healthy, which again is not really surprising to me. And no, I wouldn't call the evidence extraordinary either. Again to me, this is just a another type of way, one can train ones body.

But it depends on what claims you are referring to.

 

[nPeace]

Anyone who’s licensed through the AMA.

Oh dear. There goes all the doctors, in the whole of Asia, Africa, and down under.
This appears to be as biased as the AMA itself.
American Medical Association - Wikipedia

 

[sojourner]

Oh dear. There goes all the doctors, in the whole of Asia, Africa, and down under.
This appears to be as biased as the AMA itself.
American Medical Association - Wikipedia

I can't speak to what goes on in other countries. I live in the US, and Medicine here doesn't account for "evil spirits."

 

[nPeace]

No you still applying your favoritism of the bible, because you ignoring all the supernatural claims in which you can't prove talking snakes etc and relying on historical claims to back up the bible. The spiderman analogy still holds up. Just because something has historical people places and events (Spiderman has a 9/11 issue) doesn't make it real.

Okay, so you have confirmed that you view the ancient document as fiction, on the basis that they contains supernatural, and symbolic elements.
Therefore, you dismiss the historical accuracy, on the absence of evidence argument, for things that cannot be proven.
Yet you believe in theories that cannot be proven.
Understood.
The Bible is still historically accurate, as is show by the facts.
However, let's move to another aspect... Scientifically accurate.

The Bible contains laws on quarantine and hygiene, well in advance of modern scientific knowledge. (Leviticus 13; Deuteronomy 23:12, 13)

One of the earliest mentions of isolation is found in the Biblical book of Leviticus, written in the seventh century BC or perhaps earlier, which describes how infected people were separated to prevent spread of disease under the Mosaic Law:

The germ theory of disease is the currently accepted scientific theory for many diseases.
[In the mid 1600s Athanasius Kircher] proposed hygienic measures to prevent the spread of disease, such as isolation, quarantine, burning clothes worn by the infected and wearing facemasks to prevent the inhalation of germs. It was Kircher who first proposed that living beings enter and exist in the blood.

Quarantine
Scientists Say: Quarantine
Sanitation

The Bible accurately said the universe had a beginning (Genesis 1:1), and that the earth is suspended “upon nothing.” (Job 26:7)

...and more.

 

[nPeace]

Im not really an expert in Chi and what claims you are referring to? Are you talking about tai chi and it being healthy? If that is the case I see nothing extraordinary about that. To me it seems much like doing exercising, just using a slightly different approach.

From what I could figure out, there have been some studies that confirms it as being healthy, which again is not really surprising to me. And no, I wouldn't call the evidence extraordinary either. Again to me, this is just a another type of way, one can train ones body.

But it depends on what claims you are referring to.

Um... Did you bother looking at the video on the page I linked?
I meant like moving particles without physically touching them, etc. - what the video showed. I really must try to remember to take little steps, so you can follow.

 

[Nimos]

I really must try to remember to take little steps, so you can follow.

You really should take a course in how to behave, from the very beginning of having chatted with you, you have expressed one of the most rude, worse and most arrogant attitudes that I have ever come a cross. Actually to the point where im about to simply cut you off and not bothering spending anymore time on you.

Rather than sticking to what is important for the actual discussion, you constantly seem to have to sneak in these personal insults, which is really not charming and does nothing for you personal or the case you might talk about. It doesn't require any intellect to make insults... so please try to mature a bit.

Um... Did you bother looking at the video on the page I linked?
I meant like moving particles without physically touching them, etc. - what the video showed.

Yes I watched the video and does not consider it evidence for anything.

Here is an interesting story you can read:
Sima Nan: Fighting Qigong Pseudoscience in China | Skeptical Inquirer

One would imagine that, if people were able to run around making fire as they please, that a whole lot more people would be interested in it and what else it could do. Which makes you wonder why people are not all over this.

Just to be a bit more scientific, this is from Wikipedia about mixing Potassium Permanganate And Glycerin.

The reaction takes 10-15 seconds to ignite, depending on outside temperature and the temperature of the glycerin/glycerol. If timed carefully, the reaction will start smoking when you say "until it finally starts to smoke", and then ignite 1-2 seconds later!

Now if one counts the seconds in both videos, it takes approximate between 10 and 13 seconds for them to set fire after they crunch the paper. Which seems to fit rather well if this is the way it was done.

To us regular people that don't know how to do these tricks, I see little difference between what is done in the documentary and some of the stuff this guy does. Both are equally impressive when one does not know what is going on.

So to me, this would require a much better examination than a documentary. Get one of these people to a university under controlled conditions and let them set fire to all kinds of things and not only newspaper.
Scientists are just as easily fooled as anyone else, so those people in the documentary, by which only one of them is an actual scientist, however not in physics as it is claimed. There is nothing particular impressive in them potentially getting fooled as well.

The way this trick is performed is done by doing something that is called multiple outs. Which is basically to have enough different ways to make it look like you know what you are doing. So had Stephen Hawking chosen another card, it could have been revealed as maybe the only card missing from the deck and so forth. At least that is how I understand it, yet it still impressed him and he had no idea of how David Blaine did it.

Now I wouldn't put this in the same category as that of acupuncture.

 

[nPeace]

You really should take a course in how to behave, from the very beginning of having chatted with you, you have expressed one of the most rude, worse and most arrogant attitudes that I have ever come a cross. Actually to the point where im about to simply cut you off and not bothering spending anymore time on you.

Rather than sticking to what is important for the actual discussion, you constantly seem to have to sneak in these personal insults, which is really not charming and does nothing for you personal or the case you might talk about. It doesn't require any intellect to make insults... so please try to mature a bit.


Yes I watched the video and does not consider it evidence for anything.

Here is an interesting story you can read:
Sima Nan: Fighting Qigong Pseudoscience in China | Skeptical Inquirer

One would imagine that, if people were able to run around making fire as they please, that a whole lot more people would be interested in it and what else it could do. Which makes you wonder why people are not all over this.

Just to be a bit more scientific, this is from Wikipedia about mixing Potassium Permanganate And Glycerin.

The reaction takes 10-15 seconds to ignite, depending on outside temperature and the temperature of the glycerin/glycerol. If timed carefully, the reaction will start smoking when you say "until it finally starts to smoke", and then ignite 1-2 seconds later!

Now if one counts the seconds in both videos, it takes approximate between 10 and 13 seconds for them to set fire after they crunch the paper. Which seems to fit rather well if this is the way it was done.

To us regular people that don't know how to do these tricks, I see little difference between what is done in the documentary and some of the stuff this guy does. Both are equally impressive when one does not know what is going on.

So to me, this would require a much better examination than a documentary. Get one of these people to a university under controlled conditions and let them set fire to all kinds of things and not only newspaper.
Scientists are just as easily fooled as anyone else, so those people in the documentary, by which only one of them is an actual scientist, however not in physics as it is claimed. There is nothing particular impressive in them potentially getting fooled as well.

The way this trick is performed is done by doing something that is called multiple outs. Which is basically to have enough different ways to make it look like you know what you are doing. So had Stephen Hawking chosen another card, it could have been revealed as maybe the only card missing from the deck and so forth. At least that is how I understand it, yet it still impressed him and he had no idea of how David Blaine did it.

Now I wouldn't put this in the same category as that of acupuncture.

Oftentimes, it's people who like to be insulting who can't take what they give. So no. The reason you are saying this is because you like to be on the delivering end, rather than the receiving end.

Just take a look at all your posts from the beginning of our conversation, and you will see what rudeness is.... or maybe you don't know what it is. You repeated that behavior time and again, and I put up with it, and didn't hit you hard at all. I was gentle. You really haven't seen anything to complain about.

I am simply giving you little hints, to help you notice what you may not take note of about yourself.
i do that only here on RF, because the arrogance of Atheists is overwhelming... and they are blind to it, but this is not my personality. I am a very different person, when dealing with people in general.
I'm train to, contrary to what you may think.

On RF though, I make my head as hard as those whose head is hard. Don't like it. Apply your counsel to yourself.
Tired of me. Feel free to stop talking to me.
As they say, if you can't take the heat, stay out the kitchen.
Also, if you live in a glass house, don't throw stones.

Anyway, there are tricks in everything. That doesn't make everything tricks.
So where you focus on one aspect, you ignore the others.
If I did that, it would be considered unfair.
For example, I could focus on all the fraud in science, and apply that to all science.
Burning newspaper by trickery, is not what the video shows.
Also scientists have measured the activities of Chi, and confirmed their reality, so pulling up videos with tricksters is just avoiding the facts.

By the way, I understand why you complained.
@Nimos because there is something about you I like, I thank you, and will not jab you anymore.
I think that's why I like you, because you are delicate. Don't ask me how I know. You wouldn't understand.

 

[sooda]

And such long remembered, and gradually more and more myth-like recounting of ancient events of the foggy distant past could then be incorporated into a new story, sure, or an older version could be altered some, and put to use for a new meaning. I get it. There are many possibilities. I remember vaguely someone speculating an large ice dam on the black sea broke releasing a vast amount of flood water, etc. There are endless possibilities. After a while, those details though still scientifically interesting just because I like big events became for the bible story itself irrelevant for me, as the real interest is instead the meaning conveyed in the account, which one needs to read carefully in the first verses of the prelude to take in, verses 5-11 of chapter 6. It says things that overturn what a lot of people imagine God is supposed to be, in modern times, and also something about us humans that isn't easy to accept if you love to look on the bright side.

The Black Sea breech was a slow moving flood.. People had plenty of time to move their livestock and families to higher ground. Most serious scholars think that coincides with the explosion of agriculture in Europe, Anatolia etc.

 

[Nimos]

i do that only here on RF, because the arrogance of Atheists is overwhelming... and they are blind to it, but this is not my personality. I am a very different person, when dealing with people in general.

Well im not in a position to comment on other atheists you have spoken to here on the forum.

As they say, if you can't take the heat, stay out the kitchen.
Also, if you live in a glass house, don't throw stones.

Maybe we just look at it differently, to me its not about who can make the most clever remarks or trying to win anything. I think most people here whenever they start a discussion or comment on something, know that they are not going to change the mind of anyone else and hopefully they do it because they find the topic interesting. So no one have to throw any stones or anything as long as one sticks to the topic.

If I did that, it would be considered unfair.
For example, I could focus on all the fraud in science, and apply that to all science.

That would be a good idea, because even scientists would agree that there are fraud here as well. Which is why it rely on a process and method, so if I put forward some crazy claims, I provide a paper with the whole process so others can check whether or not I actually did it right and at the same time allows others to try to replicate whatever experiment I did as well.

So after enough have tested and find flaws in my theory, it might be useful for others or I might be called out for having cheated, made mistakes etc.

I don't see why a person claiming to be able to focus energy and causing things to burst into fire, should not also be tested over and over again to see if what they are saying is true.
Why would that be unfair, I don't get that logic? Also if it were possible to do, are you not surprised that there are not 1000s of scientific papers and studies about it, at least I consider it pretty amazing, if people could actually do that.

Burning newspaper by trickery, is not what the video shows.

The video shows a man that take a newspaper and crumbles it, and a few seconds later it catches fire. Also notice that, in none of them the paper is actually examined in great details.
I looked around for videos on this and besides the one I already showed you. Here are some more:

First video: Looks pretty much like those we have already seen.
Second guy in the video: Just wondering why he has to do it near the ground over a street grate.

If you noticed that all of them seem to have to squeeze or crumble the paper first and all using the same method, except the last guy where all the branches are hiding his hand beneath them. To me all of it just seems a bit strange.

This one doesn't actually make fire just some heat and smoke. Makes you wonder why he needs tinfoil and water.

To me after having seen all these videos, it seems more like a magic trick than anything else.

I don't know if you read the article I posted, but if you didn't, I find these statements rather interesting:

At a 1990 symposium held at the Chinese Technology Convention Center he first acted on his convictions. Posing as a student of a popular qigong master, he told the scientific experts in attendance, “Although I have been learning from the master for only a short time, I nonetheless take issue with many of the criticisms that you scientists level against the science of qigong. In order to prove my point, I will give a performance for the benefit of your expert evaluation. If my demonstration fails, you must agree never to offer this as proof that ‘special ability’ qigong does not exist. But if my demonstration withstands your scrutiny, I demand that you publicly accept the reality of ‘special ability’ qigong.” All of the experts who witnessed his charade agreed to the terms and he began his performance. Sima had his accomplice place seven bricks on his head. Using a big sledgehammer, his friend shattered the bricks, but Sima emerged unharmed. They then placed a huge cement slab on Sima’s stomach and his muscular friend cracked it in two with a mighty blow from the hammer. Sima then showed them how he could “see” characters written on pieces of paper by using his “specially developed” sense of hearing. Next he explained how he could use “external” qi to change the taste of tap water. After tasting the water that had been exposed to Sima Nan’s treatment, all agreed that the water had changed its flavor. They all conceded that he had successfully proven the existence of qigong and special ability. This had been Sima Nan’s first experiment to test how scientific experts could easily be deceived by tricks that are as old as the hills.

The trouble is that the qigong industry has everything to lose and nothing to gain from real scientific scrutiny. Such was the case with the so-called “special ability” children hoax several years ago. Many believers of this hoax could not fathom how young children would ever be capable of fooling grown adults, claiming that they lacked the means and motives for such deception. The China Psychological Institute, affiliated with the CAS, tested these children and found that none of them could perform under testing conditions set up to prevent cheating. The institute concluded that the explanation for this “phenomenon” is something that most grade school teachers should be familiar with. Some children like to attract attention by pulling pranks. In most cases, the “special ability” children had been encouraged by adults.

Also scientists have measured the activities of Chi, and confirmed their reality, so pulling up videos with tricksters is just avoiding the facts.

Do you have any of these, would be very interested in seeing them, now that we talk about it.

@Nimos because there is something about you I like, I thank you, and will not jab you anymore.
I think that's why I like you, because you are delicate. Don't ask me how I know. You wouldn't understand.

Don't worry, I do like you as well, when you are not doing those sneaking insults.

 

[nPeace]

There seems to be a disconnect between what I am presenting, and what you are focusing on. So let me back up.
Did you look at the video on this page?
Qi Gong Master Demonstrates “Chi” In Rare Footage - This Is The Shocking Power We All Posses!

If you have not, please do.... from start to finish please. It is a bit under 10 minutes.
In addition, you can watch one minute of this from where the link takes off.

It you have watched the video, do you think these are camera tricks, or staged, and the reporter, and scientists are in on it?

 

[Audie]

There seems to be a disconnect between what I am presenting, and what you are focusing on. So let me back up.
Did you look at the video on this page?
Qi Gong Master Demonstrates “Chi” In Rare Footage - This Is The Shocking Power We All Posses!

If you have not, please do.... from start to finish please. It is a bit under 10 minutes.
In addition, you can watch one minute of this from where the link takes off.

It you have watched the video, do you think these are camera tricks, or staged, and the reporter, and scientists are in on it?

Hilarious. Perfect demonstration of how easy it is
to gull a person who wants to believe.
And of the quality of evidence used to construct
these fanciful "religious" ideas we see.

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

Okay, so you have confirmed that you view the ancient document as fiction, on the basis that they contains supernatural, and symbolic elements.
Therefore, you dismiss the historical accuracy, on the absence of evidence argument, for things that cannot be proven.
Yet you believe in theories that cannot be proven.
Understood.
The Bible is still historically accurate, as is show by the facts.
However, let's move to another aspect... Scientifically accurate.

The Bible contains laws on quarantine and hygiene, well in advance of modern scientific knowledge. (Leviticus 13; Deuteronomy 23:12, 13)

One of the earliest mentions of isolation is found in the Biblical book of Leviticus, written in the seventh century BC or perhaps earlier, which describes how infected people were separated to prevent spread of disease under the Mosaic Law:

The germ theory of disease is the currently accepted scientific theory for many diseases.
[In the mid 1600s Athanasius Kircher] proposed hygienic measures to prevent the spread of disease, such as isolation, quarantine, burning clothes worn by the infected and wearing facemasks to prevent the inhalation of germs. It was Kircher who first proposed that living beings enter and exist in the blood.

Quarantine
Scientists Say: Quarantine
Sanitation

The Bible accurately said the universe had a beginning (Genesis 1:1), and that the earth is suspended “upon nothing.” (Job 26:7)

...and more.

Yes the bible is a collections of Myths from an ancient culture and sometimes you can get factual things in myths because there's suppose to be lessons to the myths. Still doesn't prove a supernatural claim of a god.

So the ancient hebrews realized that diseases spread in populated areas how does that prove a god is real?

Yes like all myth's they have a beginning still doesn't prove there's a God. Also Genesis is wrong as God moves upon the deep because the ancient Hebrews viewed space as an ocean. A basic google search of Hebrew cosmology shows that they believed in a flat earth like most cultures did.

Nothing you posted proves the supernatural claims of the bible. Yet you still don't hold it to the same light as you would a spiderman comic book.

 

[nPeace]

Yes the bible is a collections of Myths from an ancient culture and sometimes you can get factual things in myths because there's suppose to be lessons to the myths. Still doesn't prove a supernatural claim of a god.

So the ancient hebrews realized that diseases spread in populated areas how does that prove a god is real?

Yes like all myth's they have a beginning still doesn't prove there's a God. Also Genesis is wrong as God moves upon the deep because the ancient Hebrews viewed space as an ocean. A basic google search of Hebrew cosmology shows that they believed in a flat earth like most cultures did.

Nothing you posted proves the supernatural claims of the bible. Yet you still don't hold it to the same light as you would a spiderman comic book.

You still don't seem to understand that making claims that a history book is like a comic book, just because you feel that way, has nothing to do with investigation.
Since when did Google become your god of truth?
Anyone can search Google for how to answer an argument, and come away more clueless than before.
Apparently reading people's opinions is more credible to some people, than what we can investigate for ourselves from the writings.
Take care though. This is going nowhere meaningful.

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

You still don't seem to understand that making claims that a history book is like a comic book, just because you feel that way, has nothing to do with investigation.
Since when did Google become your god of truth?
Anyone can search Google for how to answer an argument, and come away more clueless than before.
Apparently reading people's opinions is more credible to some people, than what we can investigate for ourselves from the writings.
Take care though. This is going nowhere meaningful.

You still don't understand my analogy. Just because the bible had historical people and places doesn't prove the god claim in it.

This conversation wasn't meaningless. People will read this thread and see that you have bad reasons to believe in the bible and god and maybe apply that to their life. So thank you for responding and take care.

 

[River Sea]

I think you missed my point. The routes recorded for the Hebrews in Exodus were well known trade routes with a history going back to the Neolithic.

@shunyadragon
What about Exodus from Indus Valley?
Egypt build with stone so no need for a lot of straw
Indus Valley bakes bricks using lots of straw
Exodus 5:7
“You shall no longer supply the people with straw for making bricks. They must go and gather their own straw."